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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

First post First post First post
Author
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#501 - 2014-08-07 11:50:29 UTC
Pavel Sohaj wrote:
Shilalasar wrote:
Pavel Sohaj wrote:

You dont have the battleships that often in low class yes, but time needed to clear sites is really low. Im not sure about melted drop rate, but C1-C3 yields crapton of wrecks to salvage.


Droprates are way lower, also just the escalation brings about as many wrecks than most C1-3 sites. Also you can do C5/6 homesites for 3-4 days wihtout having to rely on good statics.


Here is an idea I´m throwing out there instead of jumprange: Make the mass of C5/6s more random. Not just 10% deviation but 50-60%. Since CCP just found the code for regeneration mass that shouldn´t be too hard.


Good to know on the rates. Ive lived in C6 so I know, but I can tell we were capable of farming it all in single day :D but that depends if you feel brave enough to re-farm or just hope for new spawns.


Also +1 on the mass variation. I mentioned that before too. ANd id give that to all wormholes. Its too predictable.



Too predicatable?? Who says it shouldn't be predictable??

I'm not the best role player, but here goes: We WARP spaceships through space, we have instant CLONES, we have JUMP CLONES, we can intentionally warp space/time and CYNO and BRIDGE fleets at will.

But you have decided we shouldn't be able to predict/dertermine a wh's useable mass? I'm not sure any logic can honestly be applied to this stuff. What is your basis for "too predictable"?
Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
Hole Control
#502 - 2014-08-07 11:56:44 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

Too predicatable?? Who says it shouldn't be predictable??

I'm not the best role player, but here goes: We WARP spaceships through space, we have instant CLONES, we have JUMP CLONES, we can intentionally warp space/time and CYNO and BRIDGE fleets at will.

But you have decided we shouldn't be able to predict/dertermine a wh's useable mass? I'm not sure any logic can honestly be applied to this stuff. What is your basis for "too predictable"?


ive shortened the quote.
Well, why we dont have wormhole keeping generator? So we can constatly flourish in single place. Much like in the trailer the WH collapsed, these do to. What I am saying is that some variation is nice. At least you wont do it half asleep :D
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#503 - 2014-08-07 11:59:41 UTC
In the spirit of good fun and reasonable-ness, I've created a list of things I'd rather do outside of eve than hang out in w-space after this change:
1. Go to a catholic mass... those things are long.
2. Pick a fight with a professional boxer.
3. Have cancer. Too far, or not too far enough?

No but really, I'm glad you crafted an elegant dev blog after your community told you that you were way off base.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#504 - 2014-08-07 12:01:47 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Let me address the issue of predictability.
The entire history of human civilisation has revolved around the concept of managing events, from discovering agriculture, to philosophy, medicine, to understanding the meaning of life and death and the concepts of an afterlife.

Humans learn to discover the patterns of nature and the flow of events, some patterns are hard to fathom, and take significant time and experience before one discovers the nature of things. some we have yet to discover, but there is a pattern to things that can be found eventually.

Now let us move to wormholes, the delight has been in discovering the underlying mystery and learning how to live in a difficult and hostile environment, one can never make it a safe place, but it is one where people have learnt to thrive.


Now people call for things to be driven by a random number generator, make things less predictable!

Now if that was a good idea in the real world we would all choose to live in a place where horrifically destructive weather rips through randomly at regular intervals destroying all you have built, where plagues come and kill ones children before they grow, where a simple glass of water may contain parasites that will blind you, send you mad and leave you a husk praying for death.

Funnily enough, people in the real world migrated away from such places given any choice at all.

And this would somehow encourage more people into wormhole space?

Thought not.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#505 - 2014-08-07 12:10:04 UTC
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
In the spirit of good fun and reasonable-ness, I've created a list of things I'd rather do outside of eve than hang out in w-space after this change:
1. Go to a catholic mass... those things are long.
2. Pick a fight with a professional boxer.
3. Have cancer. Too far, or not too far enough?

No but really, I'm glad you crafted an elegant dev blog after your community told you that you were way off base.

The elegant Dev Blog was crafted after folks witnessed the changes on SiSi, unannounced, and called the CCP Devs for the betrayal, openly and with great enthusiasm. The Dev Blog tries to make this Charlie-Fox scenario less about what they are doing to those of us that reject the Nullsec politics and the highsec grindfests, and more about what they can do to generate more headaches for those who chose an exclusionary existence to joining the CFC and parking ourselves in null to pay billions in rent every month to folks we don't want anything to do with, them and their 90% TiDi way of life.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#506 - 2014-08-07 12:10:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
Pavel Sohaj wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

Too predicatable?? Who says it shouldn't be predictable??

I'm not the best role player, but here goes: We WARP spaceships through space, we have instant CLONES, we have JUMP CLONES, we can intentionally warp space/time and CYNO and BRIDGE fleets at will.

But you have decided we shouldn't be able to predict/dertermine a wh's useable mass? I'm not sure any logic can honestly be applied to this stuff. What is your basis for "too predictable"?


ive shortened the quote.
Well, why we dont have wormhole keeping generator? So we can constatly flourish in single place. Much like in the trailer the WH collapsed, these do to. What I am saying is that some variation is nice. At least you wont do it half asleep :D


Oh, YOU feel some variation is nice.

So I think this wonderful mechanic that has brought years of exciting gameplay is nice as is. Even though I'm clearly superior to you in all respects, I'll lower the value of my opinion to the paltry value of yours, thus our opinions cancel one another out. Now that we've cancelled each other out it appears that 60 pages (both threadnaughts) of fact based discussion indicate this change is bad.

Don't get me wrong.... I truly respect your feelings. This thread is more about facts.
Khazuru Sharvas
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#507 - 2014-08-07 12:11:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Khazuru Sharvas
I lived in WH space for the majority of my time in EVE and have experienced life in small corps (3 guys) as well as in big corps (ATZ).

To me it seems like CCP wants to prevent people from sealing themselves off while doing WH-stuff like PVE, thus reducing risk. If that is the case, perhaps a different approach could lead to the desired effect. As long as Sleepers get shot (or PVE is done) in a WH system the chance of getting additional wormholes leading into the system could be increased. Thus the longer (or the more) PVE is done in a system, the more likely other people will find your system and may catch you during PVE. Therefore the risk while doing PVE would become higher and together with the K162-Signature-Appearence-Change this could lead to a higher risk of conflict when trying to do safe PVE.

The core mechanics of wormholes could be left untouched and people who try to find content could continue to do so, while those people who just live in WH space to make money with low risk would have to be more careful.

edit: spelling correction
Arestris
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#508 - 2014-08-07 12:15:45 UTC
All those crying and why? Mainly coz, if this change comes, you can't no longer life your carebear WH-Live.
Acutally rolling is a nearly riskless and fast way to avoid any situation that could maybe dangerous for you.

Hole to ratting / mining system? Kill a ratter or miner and and while still loling over the 250mio mackinaw kill, roll the hole before they can formup anything. Anyone has found the exit? No prop, roll the hole and be long gone before they have the smallest chance to bring something up, no risk at all for you.

There maybe some wh-corps, who roll to find PvP, but mainly they roll to find some "victims" and then roll again to got away before a serious situation can develop.

Sry, but it's more than overdue to change something on this carebear mechanism we actually have there. Nothing wrong with a bit more risk for u guys.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#509 - 2014-08-07 12:18:35 UTC
Khazuru Sharvas wrote:
I lived in WH space for the majority of my time in EVE and have experienced life in small corps (3 guys) as well as in big corps (ATZ).

To me it seems like CCP wants to prevent people from sealing themselves off while doing WH-stuff like PVE, thus reducing risk. If that is the case, perhaps a different approach could lead to the desired effect. As long as Sleepers get shot (or PVE is done) in a WH system the chance of getting additional wormholes leading into the system could be increased. Thus the longer (or the more) PVE is done in a system, the more likely other people will find your system and may catch you during PVE. Therefore the risk while doing PVE would become higher and together with the K162-Signature-Appearence-Change this could lead to a higher risk of conflict when trying to do safe PVE.

The core mechanics of wormholes could be left untouched and people who try to find content could continue to do so, while those people who just live in WH space to make money with low risk would have to be more careful.

edit: spelling correction



I hear what you're saying but this invalidates a huge amount of play-styles. I know that when I'm running sites I don't invite a gank by leaving wormholes open. Now when I'm rolling a static, I certainly expect to catch someone mining gas, running PI, or maybe in a site... and I know if I'm crafty - I can grab 'em.

It has been said, but this kills small corps and just adds so much more work to an already 'work' intensive system... where's the fun here? I thought we were wasting our life playing a game? Things that stop being fun, people stop doing.

mistake 1 - asking for wh content. Mistake 2 - trying to provide feedback on said wh content.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#510 - 2014-08-07 12:20:45 UTC
Arestris wrote:
All those crying and why? Mainly coz, if this change comes, you can't no longer life your carebear WH-Live.
Acutally rolling is a nearly riskless and fast way to avoid any situation that could maybe dangerous for you.

Hole to ratting / mining system? Kill a ratter or miner and and while still loling over the 250mio mackinaw kill, roll the hole before they can formup anything. Anyone has found the exit? No prop, roll the hole and be long gone before they have the smallest chance to bring something up, no risk at all for you.

There maybe some wh-corps, who roll to find PvP, but mainly they roll to find some "victims" and then roll again to got away before a serious situation can develop.

Sry, but it's more than overdue to change something on this carebear mechanism we actually have there. Nothing wrong with a bit more risk for u guys.



I'm sorry, I forget are there more bears in nullsec or w-space?
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#511 - 2014-08-07 12:21:23 UTC
Khazuru Sharvas wrote:
I lived in WH space for the majority of my time in EVE and have experienced life in small corps (3 guys) as well as in big corps (ATZ).

To me it seems like CCP wants to prevent people from sealing themselves off while doing WH-stuff like PVE, thus reducing risk. If that is the case, perhaps a different approach could lead to the desired effect. As long as Sleepers get shot (or PVE is done) in a WH system the chance of getting additional wormholes leading into the system could be increased. Thus the longer (or the more) PVE is done in a system, the more likely other people will find your system and may catch you during PVE. Therefore the risk while doing PVE would become higher and together with the K162-Signature-Appearence-Change this could lead to a higher risk of conflict when trying to do safe PVE.

The core mechanics of wormholes could be left untouched and people who try to find content could continue to do so, while those people who just live in WH space to make money with low risk would have to be more careful.

edit: spelling correction

What you are asking for is greater risk for the potential of zero reward. Running sites in a wormhole isn't like ratting in nullsec. The ISk doesn't just magically appear in my wallet. If the loot doesn't get collected and make it to highsec, there is no income, no POS fuel, and therefore no POS or lifestyle in the W-space anymore. What you are telling us is that generating income need to exponentially increase the risk in a wormhole, without any increase in reward. Yes, that seems fair and reasonable. This means you advocate players leaving W-space for K-space and the (relative) stability it provides. Thanks for making that clear. Now go back to your NPC station, sit in it and spin. You obviously know nothing of the challenges of living without that NPC teat to suckle.
Freddie Merrcury
Fukushima Daiichi Electric Power Co.
#512 - 2014-08-07 12:21:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Freddie Merrcury
Arestris wrote:
All those crying and why? Mainly coz, if this change comes, you can't no longer life your carebear WH-Live.
Acutally rolling is a nearly riskless and fast way to avoid any situation that could maybe dangerous for you.

Hole to ratting / mining system? Kill a ratter or miner and and while still loling over the 250mio mackinaw kill, roll the hole before they can formup anything. Anyone has found the exit? No prop, roll the hole and be long gone before they have the smallest chance to bring something up, no risk at all for you.

There maybe some wh-corps, who roll to find PvP, but mainly they roll to find some "victims" and then roll again to got away before a serious situation can develop.

Sry, but it's more than overdue to change something on this carebear mechanism we actually have there. Nothing wrong with a bit more risk for u guys.


0/10

no eben trole


Odyssey scanner is the root of the carebear problem, not a lack of some unnecessary RNG.

I been kicked out of better homes than this.

Khazuru Sharvas
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#513 - 2014-08-07 12:28:19 UTC
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
Khazuru Sharvas wrote:
I lived in WH space for the majority of my time in EVE and have experienced life in small corps (3 guys) as well as in big corps (ATZ).

To me it seems like CCP wants to prevent people from sealing themselves off while doing WH-stuff like PVE, thus reducing risk. If that is the case, perhaps a different approach could lead to the desired effect. As long as Sleepers get shot (or PVE is done) in a WH system the chance of getting additional wormholes leading into the system could be increased. Thus the longer (or the more) PVE is done in a system, the more likely other people will find your system and may catch you during PVE. Therefore the risk while doing PVE would become higher and together with the K162-Signature-Appearence-Change this could lead to a higher risk of conflict when trying to do safe PVE.

The core mechanics of wormholes could be left untouched and people who try to find content could continue to do so, while those people who just live in WH space to make money with low risk would have to be more careful.

edit: spelling correction

What you are asking for is greater risk for the potential of zero reward. Running sites in a wormhole isn't like ratting in nullsec. The ISk doesn't just magically appear in my wallet. If the loot doesn't get collected and make it to highsec, there is no income, no POS fuel, and therefore no POS or lifestyle in the W-space anymore. What you are telling us is that generating income need to exponentially increase the risk in a wormhole, without any increase in reward. Yes, that seems fair and reasonable. This means you advocate players leaving W-space for K-space and the (relative) stability it provides. Thanks for making that clear. Now go back to your NPC station, sit in it and spin. You obviously know nothing of the challenges of living without that NPC teat to suckle.



I don't say that it is too easy to make money and that there is no risk in doing PVE in wormholes. My point is that it seems to me that CCP does think so, because they want to increase the risk of getting rid of dangerous wormholes. If their goal is to increase the risk of doing PVE (which is not a goal I would support), then my suggestion would be more to the point than changing the core mechanics. But only IF that is their goal ... maybe I am getting it wrong, but changing the core mechanics to increase risk just doesn't seem to be a good idea to me.
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#514 - 2014-08-07 12:28:39 UTC
Arestris wrote:
All those crying and why? Mainly coz, if this change comes, you can't no longer life your carebear WH-Live.
Acutally rolling is a nearly riskless and fast way to avoid any situation that could maybe dangerous for you.

Hole to ratting / mining system? Kill a ratter or miner and and while still loling over the 250mio mackinaw kill, roll the hole before they can formup anything. Anyone has found the exit? No prop, roll the hole and be long gone before they have the smallest chance to bring something up, no risk at all for you.

There maybe some wh-corps, who roll to find PvP, but mainly they roll to find some "victims" and then roll again to got away before a serious situation can develop.

Sry, but it's more than overdue to change something on this carebear mechanism we actually have there. Nothing wrong with a bit more risk for u guys.


And this post comes from a 0.0 carebear who only kills custom Offices or whelping other ships completely outnumbered!?!

0/10
Moloney
The Bilderberg Group
War and Wormhole
#515 - 2014-08-07 12:28:49 UTC
Traiori wrote:
20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community:

1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else.

2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain.

3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone.

4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone.

5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content.


The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible.

I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found.


EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s.

EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).


CCP, You need to listen to this man.
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#516 - 2014-08-07 12:39:19 UTC
Khazuru Sharvas wrote:
I don't say that it is too easy to make money and that there is no risk in doing PVE in wormholes. My point is that it seems to me that CCP does think so, because they want to increase the risk of getting rid of dangerous wormholes. If their goal is to increase the risk of doing PVE (which is not a goal I would support), then my suggestion would be more to the point than changing the core mechanics. But only IF that is their goal ... maybe I am getting it wrong, but changing the core mechanics to increase risk just doesn't seem to be a good idea to me.

Ah, that makes more sense. Sorry if I read too much into your previous statement. A little punchy here, so my inner demons get typed out more.

I don't understand why CCP feels like there is no risk. Perhaps wormhole residents are just getting better at loss prevention and overall safety during PVE operations? I'm not sure this is true. There is a great video of one of our carriers from my C5 corp getting ganked, along with our Noctis with a while night's loot in it, and this took the group around 15 minutes to complete both kills. That wasn't a small loss for having a 20 man gang jumps us, and the only reason more didn't get caught was the site was mostly complete, so the other capitals were off grid already. We use players to monitor the system pretty religiously, combat probes out, someone reships we get a cautionary note over voice comms of a new ship in system. If we didn't run such careful safety protocols, we'd likely lose a lot more ships while doing our one night a week of PVE content. The other 5-6 we come online and go looking for the good fights, cause what else do you do with all that ISK, eh?
Alicia Stormbringer
xLegion of the dammedx.
Moose Alliance
#517 - 2014-08-07 12:41:50 UTC
Why are all the changes made to promote pvp there's plenty of places to find that if you want in eve without forcing it on everyone
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#518 - 2014-08-07 12:44:38 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Arestris wrote:
All those crying and why? Mainly coz, if this change comes, you can't no longer life your carebear WH-Live.
Acutally rolling is a nearly riskless and fast way to avoid any situation that could maybe dangerous for you.

Hole to ratting / mining system? Kill a ratter or miner and and while still loling over the 250mio mackinaw kill, roll the hole before they can formup anything. Anyone has found the exit? No prop, roll the hole and be long gone before they have the smallest chance to bring something up, no risk at all for you.

There maybe some wh-corps, who roll to find PvP, but mainly they roll to find some "victims" and then roll again to got away before a serious situation can develop.

Sry, but it's more than overdue to change something on this carebear mechanism we actually have there. Nothing wrong with a bit more risk for u guys.

Interesting.....
You seem to have a rather strange and unusual attitude to wormholes, apart from the fact that your comments have a stark disconnect with reality, I am really curious as to where these rather quaint ideas come from?

Now I wonder if this is part of the current meta to portray wormholes as a risk free environment, full of lazy risk averse players that would benefit from a good dose of null sec mechanics, but It seems a little too disjointed for that.

So with that in mind, I suggest you investigate and read a little about wormholes, it may clear up your misconceptions.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
Hole Control
#519 - 2014-08-07 12:46:40 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Pavel Sohaj wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

Too predicatable?? Who says it shouldn't be predictable??

I'm not the best role player, but here goes: We WARP spaceships through space, we have instant CLONES, we have JUMP CLONES, we can intentionally warp space/time and CYNO and BRIDGE fleets at will.

But you have decided we shouldn't be able to predict/dertermine a wh's useable mass? I'm not sure any logic can honestly be applied to this stuff. What is your basis for "too predictable"?


ive shortened the quote.
Well, why we dont have wormhole keeping generator? So we can constatly flourish in single place. Much like in the trailer the WH collapsed, these do to. What I am saying is that some variation is nice. At least you wont do it half asleep :D


Oh, YOU feel some variation is nice.

So I think this wonderful mechanic that has brought years of exciting gameplay is nice as is. Even though I'm clearly superior to you in all respects, I'll lower the value of my opinion to the paltry value of yours, thus our opinions cancel one another out. Now that we've cancelled each other out it appears that 60 pages (both threadnaughts) of fact based discussion indicate this change is bad.

Don't get me wrong.... I truly respect your feelings. This thread is more about facts.


Uh oh. Misunderstood but okay. WHen you lower again, I am agaisnt this change. What I am saying is that mass in WHs should be more varied, thats all. I live in WH for years.

But lawl on your response, made me smile ;)
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#520 - 2014-08-07 12:50:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Fluffi Flaffi
Alicia Stormbringer wrote:
Why are all the changes made to promote pvp there's plenty of places to find that if you want in eve without forcing it on everyone


I know this is now a typical reply to such a question, but: Because it is an MMO Game.

I like those other changes a lot coming to WH comunity. Nothing against having more WH Connections or being forced to pay even more attention again to DS, etc., but this mass-jumprange idea is just increasing work and risk without providing anything positive to be honest on the long run. Waiting on wormholes for somebody to jump through without a reasonable chance to escape is boring like hell! It's like Gatecamping, just even more boring.

Sorry CCP, but I seldomly commenting patches / devblogs as I am usually one of this "adapt or die" peoples and so far I could adapt most of the times, but this change in it's current form will be just bad I am quite sure and I have explained before why I think so.