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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Random WHs and the New Small Ship WHs

First post
Author
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#121 - 2014-08-07 00:57:34 UTC
Wow. this thread. So many non-reasons against frigate mass wormholes.
I'm going to say this once, and once only - you are all bad. No, i lie, I'll repeat it several times, with evidence.

Implants in your head are no reason not to put these in.
It's also clear you are all massive bears. Me, I roll a 50M ISk clone with 3 percent hardwires only. Clone costs near 20m to replace. Zero phux given.

So many hide-bound 6 Prot + 6 guardian + 2 jamgu doctrine w-blobbers hiding behind noob corp alts (you're all from SSC and HK, those two corps account for 60% of w-space, stop being bad).

For a start, there's the dinkuses who say "Oh em gee look at me so pimp in my slaves OMG I won't be using no frigates to go roaming, oh em gee smartbombs online oh em gee".

Seriously, you guys don't even have a clue about the environment you are entering.

If (when) the mass-jump equation goes live, frigates will spawn more or less at zero on the wormhole. Guess what doesn't work within range of a wormhole? That's right, you primates - smartbombs. Bam, your fears dispelled, your illogic trashed. Warp at range from a camped Wh in a ceptor, form a pounce behind it, warp frigs out of lineof smartbombing BS.

Harden up, fruitcakes, and get out of your Protatoes. leave your 6 guardians at home. I'm not kidding, I Nereus baited a 820M ISK 100MN HAM legion, he got angry, his alliance brought 6 Guardians to fight 4 guys, one in a hauler.

Mass limitations on wormholes already exist

next, you are all terrible at PYFA/EFT. None of you can read ship attributes, and your hole closing maths extends to Orca cold/Orca hot. I am not going to give you a free ride on this because i want to exploit the balls out of these frigate wormholes, but suffice to say BUGRY and pals have been rolling a doctrine for five years now which is made for these wormholes.

If you cannot work out how to exploit (in the sense of 'make use of') low-mass connections which doesn't involve collapse-HIC it and go away or suicide-YOLO your 2.5B slave pods and Proteuses and 6 Guardians (hint: you don't do this, ever, c.f. carebears with expensive pods) then more fool you.

Simple maths state a frigate hull weighs 2500t and a critted B274 can have up to 200,000t. 200/2.5 = how many? You work that out, numbskulls. Even today there are wormhole connections you can exploit with frigate gangs, even against T3's.

People are already doing this
I know it's gauche to post killmails. But i'll post two to illustrate my point. The victims are not being trolled - I fly with Bakla Firoz on a public roam, just not the week we deprived him of a Proteus through a massed B274 with a blob of AFs. Then there was a Vargur we blobbed the hell out of. Again, no fault of his and we just happened to have 20 AFs roaming.

We've dropped 4 AFs and 2 logi cruisers into 6 T3's/CS's before and only pulled out when the logi screwed up because it was a Magnetar. Lost no pods because they are frigates - if you don't know how to fly something that goes faster than a double 1600 plated Proteus, that's your problem, not a reason to not put frig holes in the game.

Is it w-bro to blob with 20 AFs? I dunno. Seems you need 20 legions before you're elite.

It's already here, guys, you are just bad at thinking, or playing coy. Frigate sized wormholes will just let the advanced thinkers and people who have a POS full of Enyos leverage opportunities without resorting to the tired old 6 prots, 6 Guardians 2 jamgu crud.

Crying because your clones are too loaded with pimplants and you are too space-rich to have a cllean clone is no argument against anything - it is illustrating how pathetic the wormhole meta has become that it's Proteus + Guardians online with a small mental break to ishtars in the last 6 months. Grow a set and take some risks.

- - - -

Mass regeneration is OK provided it can be crushed. ie; calculate the time it takes to crush it solo, and make sure it doesn't regenerate at more than half that rate per hour or minute. Also, remember that orca crush may be slower and more painful now they are going to spawn a billion klicks off hole.

This wwill allow you to crush a hole, with dilligence. It will also, then, allow you to push a bunch of haulers, orcas, whatever, through a hole and let it repair, allowing you to keep doing this. But it won't allow infinite BS to come through. I mean, imagine a B449 to perimeter from VFK, instant infinite logistics for nullbears? Buh-bow.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
#122 - 2014-08-07 01:03:11 UTC
Why do you think more (and more importantly, unclosable) wormholes will lead to more pvp? If anything, it will lead to less.

Carebears can't make themselves "safe" so they pack up and leave.

PvPers now have fewer targets.

For the people in the middle who are satisfied with dropping pickets on incoming wormholes, all this does is increase the number of alt accounts they'll have to maintain in order to maintain safety...oh.

Guess I just found the reason for this. CCP wants us to pay for more alt accounts.
Torbin Palarem
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#123 - 2014-08-07 01:52:14 UTC
I'm a bit new to all this WH stuff so I may be missing some things, but I don't understand all the hate against these proposed changes.

It seems the main issue people are concerned about in large gangs of frigates coming into their holes. However from what I have read these new WH's only open in the WH to null direction, and don't open until someone travels through them.

So you are in your WH, and you close your other WH's in the usual way before doing the sites, and as long as no-one has travelled through these new WH's they won't be open, so no-one will be entering through them anyway.

The only problem I see is if someone has opened them without you knowing beforehand.

And I had a chuckle when someone said they would have to sit on one 24/7, when they are open only 16hrs anyway, not even 24hrs, much less 7 days.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#124 - 2014-08-07 01:59:44 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
+1 to persistent wormholes that can't be shut

even the big ones

Kinda like null with no local?
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
#125 - 2014-08-07 02:06:44 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Why do you think more (and more importantly, unclosable) wormholes will lead to more pvp? If anything, it will lead to less.

Carebears can't make themselves "safe" so they pack up and leave.

PvPers now have fewer targets.

For the people in the middle who are satisfied with dropping pickets on incoming wormholes, all this does is increase the number of alt accounts they'll have to maintain in order to maintain safety...oh.

Guess I just found the reason for this. CCP wants us to pay for more alt accounts.



This. Thanks for making it so succinct.
Amgurr Alabel
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#126 - 2014-08-07 02:25:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Amgurr Alabel
My biggest concern with this change is as if fighting in a WH did not already favor the defending corp enough now not only do they have their home holes effects but they will be able to field bigger ships while groups coming through these holes will only be able to field frigate sized ships.

It would be sweet if these popped you into like an arena system so everyone in system had the same limitations.(I guess this would kind of be like FW gates)
Affenmesserkampf Achsoo
#127 - 2014-08-07 02:36:07 UTC
i think its a bad thing for small corps who are living in wh´s , if they have a wh that they cant close they can only log out and wait till this mass regenerating wh disappears
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#128 - 2014-08-07 02:36:32 UTC
Meh.
Hayley Enaka
Bookmark Both Sides
#129 - 2014-08-07 02:40:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Hayley Enaka
Chicken Exroofer wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
Why do you think more (and more importantly, unclosable) wormholes will lead to more pvp? If anything, it will lead to less.

Carebears can't make themselves "safe" so they pack up and leave.

PvPers now have fewer targets.

For the people in the middle who are satisfied with dropping pickets on incoming wormholes, all this does is increase the number of alt accounts they'll have to maintain in order to maintain safety...oh.

Guess I just found the reason for this. CCP wants us to pay for more alt accounts.



This. Thanks for making it so succinct.


Think of it this way. Did bubble immune ceptors kill pve in nullsec? All of a sudden the great wall of bubbles wasn't keeping you safe and you can be tackled in the time it took you to align out and yet somehow, there are still plenty of people doing PVE in space that isn't so safe any more. The smart bears learned to stay aligned and are even capable of defending themselves.

Now let me ask you this. Are you, the mightly wormhole dweller, dumber than a nullsec carebear and completely incapable of defending yourself from a gang of frigates?

On a less aggressive note, another welcome change to w-space. More connections helps make up for the added difficuty of rolling holes and gives us more chances to find content and I think the sub-cruiser sized holes are going to be huge amounts of fun and I'm interested to see the new fits and doctrines that show up as a result.
Malcolm Rennolds
Inquisition FiS Division
#130 - 2014-08-07 02:43:51 UTC
For me the big issue isn't the lose of value when I get podded, it's the expectation that I'm supposed to go out and pvp vs a fleet of hictors and frigs knowing that I will get podded and have to run a pipe back in home. I can accept having to fly cheap clones all the time in w-space but it's the hassle of getting podded out on a roam.

Although I agree with others that the most likely response will just be fleets of hictors with mobile depots.
Niewidka
Zabijaki i Pijaki
#131 - 2014-08-07 02:56:23 UTC
Well new changes look like proper stick for every small organisation in WH.
-Even grater risk wen earning ISK.
-Difficulty in quick rolling holes.
-Bit nerf-ish towards bonuses.
-WH for small stuff that no one will like to use unless he have 30 man strong frig gang behind him...

Then I Would like to ask where is the carrot ? - You know the stick and a carrot trick Lol

Why not using your imagination CCP to add some content new ways to explore make us entertained and curious ?

- deploy-able wh stabilizer thats thats makes wormhole more stable / bigger / lasting longer
- something to fight for like more complicated pos like mini star base ( fully destructible) / new sites / something unique ?
- stuff to expand possibilities and ways to play the game instead of limiting it for most of people living in wh ?


Jack Miton
Holesale
Holesale Operations
#132 - 2014-08-07 02:58:06 UTC
kinda busted that you can bring HICs through...

There is no Bob.

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Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#133 - 2014-08-07 04:04:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Altirius Saldiaro
I look forward to this change.

If hics can go through, I assume Tech 3s can too, which is great for me when I go hunting.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
#134 - 2014-08-07 04:26:29 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
If hics can go through, I assume Tech 3s can too, which is great for me when I go hunting.

You assume incorrectly. The only reason HICs can fit is that their bubbles greatly reduce their mass, to less than that of a frig.

Only frigs and HICs in the fleets of the future.
Mavis O'Day
Total.
#135 - 2014-08-07 05:44:27 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Wow. this thread. So many non-reasons against frigate mass wormholes.
I'm going to say this once, and once only - you are all bad.


Like they really do care about our opinion even if we all were clearly brilliant. The W-Nerf is on it's way, now we just negotiating the real damage.
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#136 - 2014-08-07 06:05:40 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Yeah the more i think about this addition the less i like it. I hate how popular interceptors have become in k-space due to their op mechanics, and the last thing i want to see is wormhole space full of ceptors...

I think this wormhole would be better suited to a new class of wormhole system. A system that has no moons to anchor a POS and profitable PVE that can be ran by a strong frigate fleet.



My understanding is that the Inty swarms only really become an issue when there's a ton of them, like a full wing. Thousand Paper Cuts kind of thing. Since standard Logi's can't come in through that, only Logi Frigs, I don't think it'll end up too bad. You can deal with the Logi frigs then slowly chip away at the Inties. Or have everyone kinda just sit there eternally till DT as no one can kill the other. One of the two.
I don't think there's too many WH groups that can load out a full wing of inties at the moment to cause those kinds of issues. The occasional Null roaming gang maybe.
Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
Hole Control
#137 - 2014-08-07 06:12:11 UTC
BayneNothos wrote:


My understanding is that the Inty swarms only really become an issue when there's a ton of them, like a full wing. Thousand Paper Cuts kind of thing. Since standard Logi's can't come in through that, only Logi Frigs, I don't think it'll end up too bad. You can deal with the Logi frigs then slowly chip away at the Inties. Or have everyone kinda just sit there eternally till DT as no one can kill the other. One of the two.
I don't think there's too many WH groups that can load out a full wing of inties at the moment to cause those kinds of issues. The occasional Null roaming gang maybe.


Small cuts hurt :)

But on other hand, whats stopping me from putting 4 faction smartbombfitted battleships around the WH. Once outside base range you pretty much ded. And bloba gonna.
Kira Hhallas
Very Drunken Eve Flying Instructors
Brotherhood Of Silent Space
#138 - 2014-08-07 07:13:26 UTC
So this change is really strange.

Yes nice idea with Frig size WH, but like others say, if you don't change the ISK income, people will leave the W-space.
To much risk for to less ISK.... we are all more or less Carebears in Space.

So give the People in Wormhole space, a better ISK Income, and I don't speak about sleeper loot.
I speak about Ice Belts or better the idea of T2 Mineral Belts .....

so I am not shure what I have to think about the new WH connections......

Kira Hhallas - Austrian EvE Community - ingame =Österreich= - StoryPage - https://oneshotstorys.wordpress.com/ -


Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseverare

Rek Seven
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Brave Collective
#139 - 2014-08-07 08:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Rek Seven wrote:
Fozzie, please cancel the small ship wormhole idea until you have some new content deserving of this new connection.

There is no need/place for this given the current mechanics/content. This new low mass wormhole would be better suited as a gateway to a new class of wormhole designed for frigates.


You know i'm right fozzie...
Ehud Gera
Equitable Affront
#140 - 2014-08-07 08:21:56 UTC
I haven't been in WH's in awhile but when i was we were a small corp. These Small size permanent WH's would have made our lives so difficult as to be unsustainable. IE: Too much risk in proportion to too little isk to sustain small corp WH life.

I REALLY like the idea someone suggested of an arena for small sized ships that isn't just FW. A WH that allows only Dessies and down and has sleepers that can be run by dessies/AF's? (Not to mention a great place to introduce t3 frigs Lol ) This would provide the content without the hassle for the little guy. Plus give a starting point thats even easier for low SP players in WH's. Finally WH's should not be stable thats part of what it means to be a WORMHOLE : instability, unpredictability. That's all.