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Wormholes

 
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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Random WHs and the New Small Ship WHs

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myjitaalts
Doomheim
#101 - 2014-08-06 21:58:49 UTC
just so I can wrap my head around this correctly .. MORE worm holes, made HARDER to close and new kinds that CAN NOT be closed.

So this will guarantee that within a few months my small corp I'm in, and many others. will be evicted due.

1) no way to roll hole after hostile scout is spotted. No chance to lock them out. They can plan for the next 16 hrs to get more scouts in hole.

2) (biggest issue ) currently EXTREMELY disproportionately Random worm hole generation. currently other than our static, 9 out of 10 holes tend to spawn at down time. So where is the random. Who benefit's from this.. not USA time zones. WHO benefit's from this... eastern Europe prime time,and What benefit's are there.. makes seeding hostile capitals in systems easier for some time zones.

As stated before isolation in WH space is the only way to get away from null sec politics(that and no moon goo), making any sized perma hole will bring WH space 1 step closer to becoming renter space. WH space is the only place small corps can "own" their own space. No other space in game can be claimed by a small low-SP corp.........possible yes, reality is no.... a 5 man corp without an alliance could never own any Null sec space and live there for months out of a tower without paying Billions in rent to some power block.
Verran Skarne
4 Marketeers
#102 - 2014-08-06 22:35:04 UTC
myjitaalts wrote:


2) (biggest issue ) currently EXTREMELY disproportionately Random worm hole generation. currently other than our static, 9 out of 10 holes tend to spawn at down time. So where is the random. Who benefit's from this.. not USA time zones. WHO benefit's from this... eastern Europe prime time,and What benefit's are there.. makes seeding hostile capitals in systems easier for some time zones.



This is actually due to the way players behave rather than the game. Basically, a lot of scanners like to go out just before downtime and open every hole they find, to see if they can land in a juicy system to get their friends in later. If you look, those connections you see after downtime are mostly K162s coming from other wormholes (or k-space). So the other end was sitting there for hours and hours, potentially, and just hadn't been activated.

Anecdotally we do see a LOT more hostile roams during EUTZ most days instead of USTZ. No idea why this is though, since there's plenty of USTZ pilots operating in wormholes too.
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence
Wrong Hole.
#103 - 2014-08-06 22:37:39 UTC
This will make evictions of lower class wh dwellers, particularly less established ones, much easier. CCP, you aren't doing any favors to the audience you intend to "help" with this. Not well thought out at all...

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#104 - 2014-08-06 22:50:56 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
I find the idea of sub cruiser wormholes interesting, there are some good possibilities, and smart bomb sales will rise astronomically as a natural consequence.

There are two issues that need to be addressed though.

There needs to be a way of swapping clones in wormholes, NOT JUMPING or re awakening of a clone anywhere else but K space.
whilst the clone cost is manageable even at high skill point levels, no one is going to use these corridors with hundreds of millions of implants. particularly as many many frigates will die using them, and that cannot be mitigated against. There will be smart bombing ships everywhere! solve the implant issue and they will be actively used.

Secondly the way PvE generates wealth such as it is in lower class wormholes, most of the value is in nano ribbons salvaged. the blue loot levels are not of any real value.

There will be less time for low class small operations to salvage while running sites, as they will be being disturbed far more often. I am not by any means saying it is impossible, but it will affect income for them significantly.

I recommend altering the loot tables for these lower class sites to increase blue loot values than can be got comparatively quickly and reduce nano ribbon drops to balance a little, but Lower class wormholes C4 and below, could do with a little help. contrary to popular opinion they are NOT isk fountains. They need income to replace their losses.

Relic and data sites in these holes, really need help as they have so many cans containing little of value. reduce the cans and up the value of the contents.

Some may say They are only farmers kill them all, but that is certainly not the whole story, there are some, but most really do not fit that label, and after these changes uninterrupted farming is not exactly going to be possible.

so TL;DR

Boost sub C5 blue loot to compensate for increased risk.
reduce the number of data and relic cans in C4 wormholes and below, and increase the contents.
make it possible to swap clones or implants in wormholes.

After all we want more players in all classes of space outside the POS, that is in ALL our best interests.

note: apart from the implant issue, none of these issues affect me or will benefit me in any way other than providing more content to shoot!

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Blodhgarm Dethahal
Moist Towelettes.
#105 - 2014-08-06 23:01:45 UTC
More connections are always nice.. makes the space more fluid and better chance of finding something out there in the void

+1
Onic Madres
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#106 - 2014-08-06 23:02:19 UTC
Going to say this is a stupid idea, and just goes to prove you do not like mining in wh space. you should do the players a favor and just remove grav sites from WH's cuz no one is going to mine them with un-closable frig sized wh's with high spawn rates.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#107 - 2014-08-06 23:09:51 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Onic Madres wrote:
Going to say this is a stupid idea, and just goes to prove you do not like mining in wh space. you should do the players a favor and just remove grav sites from WH's cuz no one is going to mine them with un-closable frig sized wh's with high spawn rates.


it certainly adds strength to the argument that ore sites need to be scanned down as before. there is now an argument that ALL wormhole sites should now require at least a quick scan before they can be warped to . At the least probes should need to be launched. As a hunter, I should at least have to do that I feel. theres no need to spend ages scanning down every current anomaly but a wide probe scan should be required to populate the scanner window with anomalies . This gives a short warning of visible probes on the Dscan to the aware, and does not give the lazy and careless an invisibility bonus. 30 seconds should be sufficient.

The problem with cheap kills, is
A. they are unsatisfying, and
B. kill the prey too easily and soon there is no prey to kill.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Hinata' Hyuga
WillPower and Courage Corporation
#108 - 2014-08-06 23:12:06 UTC
Having these low class WHs have transport ships travel through them would be even more brilliant. But overall, I love this idea.
Severn VonKarr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2014-08-06 23:26:11 UTC
I have to agree with myjitaalts. Blobbing is ruining eve, just look at the popularity of CSM candidates waving the "solo/small gang" banner. More combat in disposable ships sounds like a nice idea, but an uncloseable hole is just going to create anti-content. When it appears, people will hide. Blobbers will exploit the uncloseable nature to move their blobs into an evironment that used to be immune. As many have already said, Eve needs more content accessible to smaller/newer groups. Wormhole space offers that like no other part of Eve can. The existing mechanics of Wspace feel perfectly tuned for this use. Fixed total mass limits that are typically 10 times the mass of the largest ship that can enter a wspace system are a perfect counter for blobbing. Unlimited total mass holes can allow a blob to attack with impunity. Granted, the blob would be limited to small ships, but more numbers=more dps.

The significant increase in randoms works as is. If the randoms were replaced with these holes and they were given a fixed limit on total mass like normal holes and that limit was equivalent to 10 frigs, it would be better. To ensure that these aren't just closed, they should instead act like temporary statics; the anomaly will not despawn on close. Instead it will just connect to a different system. This could act like a small random hole that smaller groups could rage roll for content.

All proposals considered for improving wspace pvp, a delayed signature was a more elegant solution.
Trethard
Haywire.
#110 - 2014-08-06 23:29:59 UTC
How about instead of a low jump mass high total mass regen hole, maybe make these more common, but low jump mass low total mass? Say, 20 frigate's worth or something? It open up j-space for more content, but keep the idea that when you are here you are isolated. No chance of reliable backup for your blob. If they are common, you're never really safe, but people need to bring a scout to use then and get out and can't treat them as a super highway from sov space.

Also, please give us a way to change clones.
Jack Miton
Dark Venture Corporation
#111 - 2014-08-06 23:52:52 UTC
um.... I guess?
i'd rather have class 0.5 WHs than class 7 WHs i guess so there's that.
not sure what this will actually bring to WHs but might be interesting to see.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

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Meytal
Doomheim
#112 - 2014-08-06 23:53:01 UTC
This is a tough one. On one hand, trying to encourage more use of Frigates in W-space is good, but with the fleet sizes typically seen in W-space (very small in comparison to Nullsec fleets), combined with the fact that W-space residents typically can afford to fly whatever they want and still usually don't choose frigates, this will be difficult.

Mandating the use of Frigates in some cases likely isn't a complete solution; you need to make frigates more desirable. Being known for dying when sneezed upon, it may help to increase frigate survivability, perhaps by an increase in buffer, a decrease in sig radius, or a small natural resistance to webbing for all frigates. After all, if you can scram and web a frigate, it's dead in one shot.

You will also need to reduce the reluctance to use low-tanked ships due to a great chance of losing your pod and implants. Allow us to swap clones in W-space, placing all jump clones in the wormhole system at risk if invaded, and requiring us to risk their loss during transport from Hisec station to W-space facility. Those are two new risks that do not presently exist.


Combined, those two changes will result in more Frigates in W-space with or without a focus on frigate-only wormholes.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#113 - 2014-08-07 00:04:22 UTC
Thought about this for a day. I have some reservations.

1) You've given rise to nullsec bomber fleets into wormholes. Meaning you've given the rise to unlimited wings of siege bombers into wormhole space.. with a hole that cannot be closed. While it was possible before, it was not practical.

2) You give people with numbers an infinite advantage.

Wormholers concern is majorly the influx of hundreds upon hundreds of nullsec interceptor and bomber gangs into wormhole space though the use of the infinite hole. But honestly.. we really do not know what will happen.

Its a crap shoot either way. I'd take a gamble on it.

Yaay!!!!

Auract
League of Darkness
#114 - 2014-08-07 00:24:51 UTC
The current amount inside my head would keep me away from such a crappy little frig. so easily taken out inside of one of those holes and saying good bye to my pod. No thank you.
Chrysalis Pollard
Griffin Capsuleers
Ad-Astra
#115 - 2014-08-07 00:25:32 UTC
I don't think that this change will help my smaller corp much. It will definitely make it harder for us to run sites without the chance of being molested or found and it will make it much rarer for us to mine ore or gas. (Just a couple of days ago I was very excited about our new ore compression array) I see a lot of these changes as increasing the risk of being living in a WH system without an increase in the rewards unless your looking for PvP and kill mails. In my opinion, this change will just cause my corp to POS up more and not run sites or do stuff in our WH.

It is not like we don't have a lot of connections to our C3 anyway, currently we have 8 including our static (2 K162s from unknowns, 2 K162s from dangerous unknowns, and 3 K162s from null sec plus our U210 static).

I would like to see CCP introduce more reward for our risk of living in WH space such as more blueprints that use some of the pretty much worthless sleeper salvage and gas, or introduce new lines of T3 ships or T3 rigs or implants that can be made from sleeper loot.

Navie
Tharion Star
#116 - 2014-08-07 00:31:16 UTC
Hey, this is semi-on topic, but if you want to spice up w-space in general you could add wormhole "Pockets"

These are unstable wormhole systems... They live and die with the WH that enters them..... Lets label them C0 and have a rating of .1~.6... a C0.3 is a unstable C3 system, When the primary hole into it dies you get dumped back into normal or W space randomly.... So they are high risk for getting stranded and with 16-24hr lifespans they are not intended to support permanent residence.

What they are good for is appearing at random within normal and w-space as un-inhabited space for exploration, say your a high sec mining corp, and one of these spawns... you could venture in knowing that the space is not being lived in and try to risk some better mining. Or if your in W space it gives you an opportunity to clear more sites and explore other w-space classes without having to contend entrenched residents.

That does not mean they are safe, they would typically have only 1 entrance/exit with lower total mass limits. Getting stranded at one in high sec could mean being transported out to nul... or if you entered from w-space it would dump you out into parts unknown and you would have to scan your way out. Also some gankers could come trap you inside or roll you on purpose. Clearly there would need to be some warning perhaps a shader making the space it self all wobbly so you know you need to leave soon. But it would be neat to have these pockets to sort of stretch your legs in w-space and try new things.

An interesting idea would be making these show up on scan like standard combat sites, where they dont need scanned them self unlike normal wormholes.
mulgrew Zero
Weyland Mulgrew Corporation
#117 - 2014-08-07 00:34:40 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Thought about this for a day. I have some reservations.

1) You've given rise to nullsec bomber fleets into wormholes. Meaning you've given the rise to unlimited wings of siege bombers into wormhole space.. with a hole that cannot be closed. While it was possible before, it was not practical.

2) You give people with numbers an infinite advantage.

Wormholers concern is majorly the influx of hundreds upon hundreds of nullsec interceptor and bomber gangs into wormhole space though the use of the infinite hole. But honestly.. we really do not know what will happen.

Its a crap shoot either way. I'd take a gamble on it.



yup exactly what i was thinking and being a wolf rayet resident aswell will probley give us more of a pian :) ho humm
Lero D
Griffin Capsuleers
Ad-Astra
#118 - 2014-08-07 00:39:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lero D
I have lived in WH-s for a few years.
We are a small corporation that can not put up a real fight.

Nevertheless, I really enjoyed many aspects of the WH life with my 2 paid accounts.
I can tell you one thing for sure:
When we have 1 or max 2 exits, we do many things, including running sleeper sites, mining, doing PI, transporting stuff.
Every time we get 4-5 connections, we have people roaming our WH, usually from the higher classes WH-s or Null.
We have no defense against them, rather than closing the holes, which many times we do.
However, if 'THEY' are very active, we just quit playing in the WH for 16 hrs/24 hrs..

With these changes:
- we'll not be able to close the bad connections
- we'll always have many connections, so we'll always be prevented from playing.
- a large fleet of small ships still can kill anything given enough time, which a large corporation will obviously have

If these changes become real and affect the game as I unfortunately think they will, chances are really good that I am quitting for good EVE. It's been a few good years, but I may get more sugar from my wife if I stop playing, so not too bad at the end of the day.

PS / Option:

How about you make these changes (extra connections and the new unknown WH) to appear proportional with the WH Class?
The higher the class the more new connections to other higher class?
Large corporations with Capital ships live in C4-6 WH, and they are usually looking for more fights, so connect them to more similar WH-s. C1-2 connect them to HS, and between them.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#119 - 2014-08-07 00:45:38 UTC
+1 to persistent wormholes that can't be shut

even the big ones
Epigene
Cordata Enterprises
#120 - 2014-08-07 00:52:46 UTC
I live in a C4, we get triple whammy:

1. Additional static. Could be good, could be bad but I didnt ask for it.
2. Increased risk to close my holes
3. increased gank traffic through these mini holes.

We are a mixed PvP / PvE corporations. While I am looking forward to more routes and more people to shoot, I can see our carebears re-evaluating their risk / reward and moving out.