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Wormholes

 
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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Wormhole Effect Rebalance

First post
Author
Threll Lornax
The Sleepless Vanguard
#161 - 2014-08-09 19:49:04 UTC
Don't want to be the nagging one, but here I go.

When can we expect some feedback regarding cataclysmic variables?
Apollo Eros
Percussive Diplomacy
PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
#162 - 2014-08-09 20:00:29 UTC
/me cracks knuckles. Yup looks like the work here is done.

[Triple OG LVL 5 Space Wizard]

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#163 - 2014-08-10 00:49:42 UTC
Numbers on CVs.

Archon, all 5 skills, fitting at end of poast.
Paired with another Archon swapping 2 x cap Rr + 2 x Armour RR, rep running, no implants.
Numbers are in GJ or GJ/s : Normal // C1 CV // C2 CV // C3 CV // C4 CV // C5 CV // C6 CV

Cap Pool - 97,900 // 127,200 // 140976 // 154,682 // 168,388 // 182,094 // 195,800
Total Cap Regen GJ/s - 904 // 695 // 704 // 710 // 715 // 718 // 719
Base cap regen GJ/s: 464 // 525 // 548 // 568 // 587 // 604 // 619
Cap from partner GJ/S: 200 // 170 // 156 // 142 / 128 // 114 // 100
Cap use w/inbound: 787 for all classes
Excess or deficit: +117 // -92 // -83 // -77 // -72 // -69 // -68
Recharge time (s): 211 // 242 // 257 // 272 // 286 // 301 // 316

Results: C1 CV is harsher on carriers swapping capacitor because,
a) cap pool increases with class of CV wormhole
b) energy demand is flat - ie; you're always using the same amount of capacitor
c) as cap pool increases, native cap regen increases, at a faster rate as you go up CV classes
d) efficiency of cap transferring decreases, ie; becomes more newtonian and less EVE magic cap from nowhere

Solution is to use metalevel cap transfers, implants, etc. but essentially, spider tanking is dead because 3 heavy neuts into the system at any point in time will break any efficiencies.

Note, also, this is the Archon, which has magical nicorn levels of capacitor. Refer to this pile of EFTcrafting for a discussion relating to why the Archon is king (hint: it ain't the resist profile). So if you struggle to make ends meet in the new cat var after this change in an Archon, you are completely borked in anything else.

==============
[Archon, C2 Cat Var]

Capital Armor Repairer I
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capital Armor Repairer I
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Capital Remote Capacitor Transmitter I
Capital Remote Capacitor Transmitter I
Capital Remote Armor Repairer I
Triage Module I
Capital Remote Armor Repairer I

Capital Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capital Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capital Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#164 - 2014-08-10 01:18:27 UTC
Now, as to why this is being done.

The reason for the CV rejig, ostensibly, is that there are less people bearing and thus PVping and living, in cat var wormholes than WR's etc.

Currently, the capacitor penalty and local rep nerf discorages the usual species of wormhole bear, which is the solo or multiboxing neckbearded nerd running a solo Tengu. You can get away with solo in C1-2 by adding a bit of extra pimp, and lets be honest, it's as hard as falling out of bed. But C3+ it becomes impossible to solo.

The real reason the changes are coming in is obviously, but not explicitly stated, to weaken (read: completely nobble) some of the extreme possibilities available in C5 and C6 Cat vars where spider tanking Pantheon, Slowcat or Coolcat carriers can make everything a giant steaming pile of feces.

Certainly, the changes will address the potential for spider tanking carriers with uber pimp fits (ISK being a matter of when, not if in C5s) to throw up anomalies, but this will be done via basically nobbling every potential use for carriers in any class of wormhole (even though it's less of an issue in C4/C5).

The problem is, even right now, people are deserting CV's. I know we are, because it's pointless having a solo PVE nerf (local rep nerf) and an RR buff (for defensive PVP and POS repping shennanigans) coupled with a capital and Guard/Augoror nerf.

i mean, what's the point of CV's now? It's been turned from a poorly populated type of wormhole into the new Black Hole effect.

I think this is really a solution looking for a problem. It certainly won't fix the ostensible problem (population) but it goes overboard on fixing the explicit problem of C5-C6 craziness.
Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#165 - 2014-08-10 06:07:52 UTC
Well they have a choice between breaking CV to being hideously OP now and nerfing again once capitals are rebalanced OR nerfing CVs now and doing the carrier rebalance in their own sweet time.
Samsara Nolte
Untethered
Almost Competent
#166 - 2014-08-10 10:14:40 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Well they have a choice between breaking CV to being hideously OP now and nerfing again once capitals are rebalanced OR nerfing CVs now and doing the carrier rebalance in their own sweet time.


So - and when is the capital revamp gonna happen ? - given the time they took so far for any changes to ship classes we will likely see them at earliest in 2 years - and until then everybody living in a Cataclysmic has to put up with that ?
and to be honest even if they would annonce they take a serious look at cataclysmic Variable after they changed cap, i doubt it is gonna happen ... dev´s are quite prone to forget things over long periods of time as is a major part of the community ...

BTW the rebalance of Wolf-Rayets have you taken the existence of slave implant sets into consideration -
then until now i always thougt this was the reason wolf-rayets didn´t give a flat out HP bonus ...
considering this - tell me again why does an already disliked wh get a nerf to it´s states wheras a fairly liked one gets buffed twofold (small weapon damgage and armor-Hp)
Samsara Nolte
Untethered
Almost Competent
#167 - 2014-08-10 10:27:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Samsara Nolte
Trinkets friend wrote:
Now, as to why this is being done.

The reason for the CV rejig, ostensibly, is that there are less people bearing and thus PVping and living, in cat var wormholes than WR's etc.

Currently, the capacitor penalty and local rep nerf discorages the usual species of wormhole bear, which is the solo or multiboxing neckbearded nerd running a solo Tengu. You can get away with solo in C1-2 by adding a bit of extra pimp, and lets be honest, it's as hard as falling out of bed. But C3+ it becomes impossible to solo.

The real reason the changes are coming in is obviously, but not explicitly stated, to weaken (read: completely nobble) some of the extreme possibilities available in C5 and C6 Cat vars where spider tanking Pantheon, Slowcat or Coolcat carriers can make everything a giant steaming pile of *****.

Certainly, the changes will address the potential for spider tanking carriers with uber pimp fits (ISK being a matter of when, not if in C5s) to throw up anomalies, but this will be done via basically nobbling every potential use for carriers in any class of wormhole (even though it's less of an issue in C4/C5).

The problem is, even right now, people are deserting CV's. I know we are, because it's pointless having a solo PVE nerf (local rep nerf) and an RR buff (for defensive PVP and POS repping shennanigans) coupled with a capital and Guard/Augoror nerf.

i mean, what's the point of CV's now? It's been turned from a poorly populated type of wormhole into the new Black Hole effect.

I think this is really a solution looking for a problem. It certainly won't fix the ostensible problem (population) but it goes overboard on fixing the explicit problem of C5-C6 craziness.


As stated by you - Spider tanking in cataclysmic has some great synergy effects and becuase you transfer cap it is incredibly harder to make any neut count - but what counterbalances this to quite large degree is the fact that Triage isn´t a viable option in Wormholes with this variable, because of the self rep nerf - what means in PVP engangments your are the sole primiary if you are stupid enough to go into triage ... and then you can´t get any cap from the other carriers and you have to survive under heavy neut pressure on your own with a heavy reduced self rep .....it will most likely result in you going down ...
the whole reason why i think this is balanced is the fact then when you are aren´t in triage every other method of e-war is still a viable option - so instead of neut bring ECM in a Cataclymic bring DAMPS ... that is the e-war to go for in those holes ... and done right is gonna disrupt the Spiedertank on it´s own, no neut needed. but that would mean you´d have to adapt - instead of a Bhallgorn you´d need to bring Scorpion or a Widow ... seems like some are adverse to do that -
so why change it ? - why punish the one living in cataclymsic for the lack of ships others can bring and are willing to ?

edit - some spelling mistakes
Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#168 - 2014-08-10 12:59:03 UTC
I like these changes. I look forward to using odd fits depending on which wormhole we're fighting on.

The wolf-rayet changes will make it harder to do sites in our home, but I love the +200% small weapon bonus.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#169 - 2014-08-11 00:52:33 UTC
W-R changes are....interesting.

The resist nerf will make it harder to do sites in C5 and C6's because your web lokis won't have so many resists it is impossible to lose them, and more importantly, dreads won't get to go resist-light and blap-happy, and might need to put a cap fit in the hold and tank.

However, I think these changes could throw up some oddities. C6 WR with HG Slaves, Damnation boosts and HG-1005.
Lets take the Impel. 725k EHP.
Legion: Twin 1600 plated, 500K EHP
Sacrilege: 300K EHP
Vengeance: 30K EHP, sig radius 18.5 (ie; 20% application of medium weapon damage off the bat)
Armour RLML Tengu, I can't get it to 2340 DPS (would like to know how you get a base RLML damage of 800 out of them) but I can get 850 DPS and 160K EHP.
2100 DPS gank Catalysts @ 16M a pop (yeah, T2 rigged, this is a C6 after all) - not that half the carebears here wwould dare field anything they could ever die in, but lets be honest, just field a wing of these with your third accounts and bring a suicide squad in against their logis and hope you get your pods back to POS for a reship.
Revs: 3 x energized layering membranes and 2 x EANM, 1 x Explo hardener = 1.38M raw armour HP or 5M EHP. A bit shy of a Revhullation with T2 transverse bulkies at 7.13M but you get the idea.

I don't know if this is broken, or just heading towards being boring. I mean, who can record a 22.5 hour long fight on FRAPS as HK and SSC square off with 70 legions a side and Guardians and collectively field over 100M EHP on the field. Let alone the stupidity if they bring even a couple of triage carriers.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#170 - 2014-08-11 01:42:52 UTC
Webbing lokis will still be ridiculous in a wr - they have pretty high resists in normal systems, the extra armor hp means huge ehp coupled with tiny sig.
Elyas Crux
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2014-08-11 07:44:12 UTC
Overall I'm happy with Effect Rebalance.
Black Hole effect is unique and interesting.
Wolf Rayet is more niche and more interesting.
Will be leaving CV home system and moving to a WR but maybe the CV rebalance can be tweaked so that it doesn't just debuff every doctrine.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#172 - 2014-08-11 14:38:33 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Webbing lokis will still be ridiculous in a wr - they have pretty high resists in normal systems, the extra armor hp means huge ehp coupled with tiny sig.


Not as extreme as some things. Scythe Fleet with MG Slaves and Loki booster - 90K EHp and sig of 35m (ie, a frigate), dishing out 975 DPS with RLMLs. I mean...OK, bring me your poor and huddles Catalysts, your hordes of shiftless Kestels, your Punishers (300DPS, 16K EHP), your Talwar alts.
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#173 - 2014-08-11 15:02:31 UTC
SwagYolo420 wrote:
With black holes it still takes ages to get into warp with anything that is plated or a captial vessel - especially since webbing it into warp is nerfed.

Wormhole environments are already overtanked as it is - do you really have to hand out free erebus bonuses + HG slave set to anyone in a c5/6 WR?


I think you miss the part where your negative effect to inertia is going to be halved so the over all effect will be faster going to warp. Even with the web nerf.
Jon Hellguard
X-COM
#174 - 2014-08-11 17:21:13 UTC
Looking forward to the Effect Rebalance.

Please, if you haven't already, consider showing these effect values somewhere in the UI or make them available somehow for new pilots. After years w-space volks have learned those values, most of them just looked them up on a website anyway - might as well make them visible to get have new pilots understand it better. Just like jump/dock/agression/suspect/ect. timers.
Innar Mishi
Shitfitters Inc.
#175 - 2014-08-11 19:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Innar Mishi
I quite like random spawning from wormholes, for the reasons that the devs gave. but I think there should be introduced a deployable structure that "stabilizes" the wormhole and drastically reduces the distance spawned on the other side (3000m max for Orca) . this way you can jump through safely and on your way back you're on home ground and the distance spawned away isn't as much of a problem for getting ganked. To balance this this wormhole stabilizer should be visable for everyone on there overview; so if you try set one up on the other end you run the risk of being immediately ganked.
This also opens up the possibility of a wormhole destabilizer that increases the distance spawned; making shield fleets potentially viable.

Edit: I am dumb; just realized this is in the wrong thread.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#176 - 2014-08-11 20:27:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Innar Mishi wrote:
I quite like random spawning from wormholes, for the reasons that the devs gave. but I think there should be introduced a deployable structure that "stabilizes" the wormhole and drastically reduces the distance spawned on the other side (3000m max for Orca) . this way you can jump through safely and on your way back you're on home ground and the distance spawned away isn't as much of a problem for getting ganked. To balance this this wormhole stabilizer should be visable for everyone on there overview; so if you try set one up on the other end you run the risk of being immediately ganked.
This also opens up the possibility of a wormhole destabilizer that increases the distance spawned; making shield fleets potentially viable.


Doesn't change that 9 times out of 10 spawning whether 1 km or 149km out of jump range has little consequence when collapsing other than to slow things down - potentially considerably - for no enhancement of gameplay and that 1 time in 10 when it would make a difference you can't force people to take risks they aren't prepared to take. So the net effect will for the most part be incidental losses from smaller entities who can't defend their stuff so well if/when they occasionally get unlucky or do something careless/stupid.

Then you have the potential issues it adds of when people do actively engage in PVP it could potentially cause range based issues at the initiation of the fight that could do more to hinder things than anything else.

EDIT: Part of why it is "so easy and safe" to control wormholes in this way with limited risk of player disruption is often largely due to the reluctance of 3rd parties to jump in before the collapse anyway - while a horrid clunky mess from a development perspective it might be better to change the actual collapse mechanism itself i.e. once massed down below its max mass it becomes a smaller more limited wh for 5-10 minutes before collapsing entirely (without hindering the spawning of the new static). Still dislike that this wouldn't impact the bigger entities much while having a heavier burden on the smaller ones.


EDIT2: This is the wrong thread really but oh well.
CorranCHalcyon
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#177 - 2014-08-12 21:23:29 UTC
After looking through the list of systems and the rebalance for each I have to say I liked most of what CCP is planning on doing. Black holes especially. Next of course cataclysmic systems. There are a few balances I do not like however. The Wolf-ryet conversion from resist bonus to HP bonus.

I understand CCPs position as to why they want to change it, but it doesn't sit right with me. I've been trying to put my finger on the reason why. It just doesn't feel right to me. And no I do not live in a Wolf-ryet.

All around though Nice job CCP.


On a side note:

CCP I have a suggestion. If you find it feasible, split the CSM into three smaller CSM councils of three or four people. One for Null, Lowsec and W-space. They would all have the same duties as the current incarnation of the CSM does, but they would also represent their own areas of space. Null would have no responsibilities nor any say in W-space or Lowsec. And the other two councils would follow the same guidelines respectively. Also with this paradigm for CSM it would break the sheer numbers that Null Alliances have to control the vote for the majority of the CSM. It would give other organizations to have a primary voice.
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#178 - 2014-08-12 23:20:01 UTC
NOTE: offtopic

CorranCHalcyon wrote:

On a side note:

CCP I have a suggestion. If you find it feasible, split the CSM into three smaller CSM councils of three or four people. One for Null, Lowsec and W-space. They would all have the same duties as the current incarnation of the CSM does, but they would also represent their own areas of space. Null would have no responsibilities nor any say in W-space or Lowsec. And the other two councils would follow the same guidelines respectively. Also with this paradigm for CSM it would break the sheer numbers that Null Alliances have to control the vote for the majority of the CSM. It would give other organizations to have a primary voice.


Thats a bad idea, since many players (and most likely CSM members also) tend to be split between 2 or all 3 of those. Would make null sec alliance loos some control on CSM, but the only reason thay have that control is that they actualy have pilots voting for them. Reducing null control by segmenting CSM is NOT the way to go, somehow make WH/low/hi sec people vote for their own candidates is the onyl good solution.
Also since null people are generaly better organised, their candidates tend to good contact with their own market/industry guys. Its not the random null grunt thats usualy voted into CSM, its the people that have proven to their alliance/coalition that they know what they do
Ness Phase
Dark Venture Corporation
#179 - 2014-08-13 07:28:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ness Phase
Nice work ccp. I like all the new wh effect changes and rebalances. Black holes look great now. I look foward to hunting in them Twisted .
Laura Agathon
Nothing on Dscan
#180 - 2014-08-13 08:15:37 UTC
Gotta say, I'm a bit disappointed there has not been a dev reply in nigh on a week.