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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Wormhole Effect Rebalance

First post
Author
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#121 - 2014-08-07 13:42:43 UTC
First of all, many many thanks CCP not only for finally trying to improve W-space, but also for considering the options proposed by the community and for being honest and clear about your view of W-space in your devblog. As well as for not destroying what makes it unique!

On topic: awesome! Those are really interesting changes.
I think Black Holes are going to be awesome right now; I just hope Caldari POS' keep their launchers while on Reinforced Mode... Great!
Wolf Rayets. Dat damage bonus. All hail our new overlords the c6 blaster catalysts... I think I prefered armor resists, but HP are also good... We'll have to see.
Red Giants: great idea with the Bomb bonuses! That's going to be interesting.
Those cap transfer penalties on Cataclysmic Variables and NOS/neut bonuses on Pulsars are going to be interesting too; they seems balanced with the local cap bonuses on both.

Me likes. Especially the idea of frigate/destroyer fleets using the new small regenerating wormholes, entering high-class Wolf-Rayets...... that's going to be nightmarish.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#122 - 2014-08-07 14:19:26 UTC
would the changes to black holes make phoenixes viable farming ships? o.0

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Adarnof
Super Secret Spaceship Syndicate
#123 - 2014-08-07 15:34:58 UTC
Daenika wrote:
As a matter of record, a triage Archon with two meta local reppers, three remote reppers, and one remote cap transfer (plus an EANM and DC, and the rest cap regen) is fully capable of solo-tanking escalations, even in a C5 Cataclysmic Variable. Our standard setup is precisely as above, and we live in a C5 CV. With two local reppers and links from an command ship, a Triage Archon can tank a maximum of about 8663 DPS (8800ish with a second EANM instead of the DC, but we prefer the extra hull buffer just in case), and is nearly stable doing so even with a full double-wave (first carrier, first dread) of 12 Sleepless Guardians neuting it (it's 64% stable without the neuts, and still lasts 7 minutes on cap with all 12 neuts on it 100% of the time with both local reppers working 100% of the time as well).

Now, each Sleepless Guardian does 694 DPS, so a wave of 12 does 8328. Said carrier can tank them just fine.


8663 DPS tank is a far cry from full house aggro on a quad like we do now. No way in hell I'm going back to staggering the escalations, that takes way too long.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#124 - 2014-08-07 15:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Daenika
Quote:
8663 DPS tank is a far cry from full house aggro on a quad like we do now. No way in hell I'm going back to staggering the escalations, that takes way too long.


Well, if it means you have to field, say, 4 chain archons instead of 1 triage and 1+ drone DPS carriers, I'm not sure your "it's faster" is actually applicable.

I mean, as long as the Moros never don't have a target, you're not gaining any speed either way. Even when we're fielding 3 Moros instead of 2 (more than that and targeting/webbing gets too chaotic), we have almost no downtime in the site for escalations.

Still, if it's too much for ye, move to a system that doesn't have a local rep penalty...
Adarnof
Super Secret Spaceship Syndicate
#125 - 2014-08-07 15:54:10 UTC
Daenika wrote:
Quote:
8663 DPS tank is a far cry from full house aggro on a quad like we do now. No way in hell I'm going back to staggering the escalations, that takes way too long.


Well, if it means you have to field, say, 4 chain archons instead of 1 triage and 1+ drone DPS carriers, I'm not sure your "it's faster" is actually applicable.

I mean, as long as the Moros never don't have a target, you're not gaining any speed either way. Even when we're fielding 3 Moros instead of 2 (more than that and targeting/webbing gets too chaotic), we have almost no downtime in the site for escalations.

Still, if it's too much for ye, move to a system that doesn't have a local rep penalty...


It's faster when you have more dreads on field, and hence more simultaneous escalations. My point is quite applicable.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#126 - 2014-08-07 19:26:58 UTC
Dem Wolf-Rayet bonuses...

I, too, enjoy 15m sigRad 25kEHP Assault frigates zipping around around at 1000m/s doing 650dps. RIP. Literally no reason to ever bring anything else ever for PvP.

I'm also anxious to see the first vids of the new 33km/s Succubus. Yes, that's kilometers, as in 33000 meters. Ofc, if you want one that is combat capable, stick to a MWD and zoom around at only 21km/s.

Well, it should spawn some awesome pvp vids. vOv

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Alabugin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2014-08-07 20:50:24 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Dem Wolf-Rayet bonuses...

I, too, enjoy 15m sigRad 25kEHP Assault frigates zipping around around at 1000m/s doing 650dps. RIP. Literally no reason to ever bring anything else ever for PvP.

I'm also anxious to see the first vids of the new 33km/s Succubus. Yes, that's kilometers, as in 33000 meters. Ofc, if you want one that is combat capable, stick to a MWD and zoom around at only 21km/s.

Well, it should spawn some awesome pvp vids. vOv




If I did my math correctly, in a c6 an enyo will be doing 414*200% = 414+828 = *insert dubstep jam 1200+DPS

A catalyst can break 1500 but with less tank, less speed and higher sig. Pretty scary if you ask me.
Wingzero Mileghere
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2014-08-07 21:23:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Wingzero Mileghere
I like all of the proposed changed especially black holes
nimon
unlogic for U
#129 - 2014-08-07 22:09:57 UTC
Its time for more wormholesystem effects

Hi I would like to say thats CCP could make a little bit more then that to wormholes.
All in the Hyperion Patch sounds good and please dont change the new distance coming out from wormholes,
some players crying or not that is a good change.

But please bring more wormholesystems with new effects like some examples...
Very dangerous with damage per minute or being like blind in overview about gas or something, moving electric storms, .....
Afterburner bonus, Drone systems, upgrading especially damage type systems, more gas planetary or ore amounts to some.

Of course there are many more posibilitys for that but bring more for more tactics and curiosity its time.

PS. The best idea in Eve were the wormholes this gives small groups and solo players a chance to play in their own systems.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#130 - 2014-08-07 22:45:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Daenika
Quote:
If I did my math correctly, in a c6 an enyo will be doing 414*200% = 414+828 = *insert dubstep jam 1200+DPS

A catalyst can break 1500 but with less tank, less speed and higher sig. Pretty scary if you ask me.


Assuming Fozzie is correct and the implementation stays the same, a RLML Tengu in a C6 W-R can drop 2340 DPS, and a cloaky RLML Tengu can drop ~1300 (with 50k EHP and 500k self-rep on Ancillary). With almost perfect damage application and 30km range to boot.

I mean, that's just silly.

Quote:
It's faster when you have more dreads on field, and hence more simultaneous escalations. My point is quite applicable.


So move to a non-Cataclysmic? I'm also not too sure how you manage to coordinate targeting and webbing with that many dreads on field. Even with 3, it gets rather chaotic. 5-6 dreads, you're going to have a lot of targeting overlap, BSes dying while others are still locking them, two dreads shooting at the same target, etc, and actually getting webs on all of those being shot will be nearly impossible (especially since it takes those BSes like 30 seconds to slow down from full speed).
the Infenro
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#131 - 2014-08-07 23:45:17 UTC
Daenika wrote:
Quote:
If I did my math correctly, in a c6 an enyo will be doing 414*200% = 414+828 = *insert dubstep jam 1200+DPS

A catalyst can break 1500 but with less tank, less speed and higher sig. Pretty scary if you ask me.


Assuming Fozzie is correct and the implementation stays the same, a RLML Tengu in a C6 W-R can drop 2340 DPS, and a cloaky RLML Tengu can drop ~1300 (with 50k EHP and 500k self-rep on Ancillary). With almost perfect damage application and 30km range to boot.

I mean, that's just silly.

Quote:
It's faster when you have more dreads on field, and hence more simultaneous escalations. My point is quite applicable.


So move to a non-Cataclysmic? I'm also not too sure how you manage to coordinate targeting and webbing with that many dreads on field. Even with 3, it gets rather chaotic. 5-6 dreads, you're going to have a lot of targeting overlap, BSes dying while others are still locking them, two dreads shooting at the same target, etc, and actually getting webs on all of those being shot will be nearly impossible (especially since it takes those BSes like 30 seconds to slow down from full speed).


well in effect your statement says that your ****** doing anoms in a CV, so now your group has to move into a different variable. congrats you have made a new black hole system.....
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
Great Blue Balls of Fire
#132 - 2014-08-07 23:55:45 UTC
Daenika wrote:
Quote:
If I did my math correctly, in a c6 an enyo will be doing 414*200% = 414+828 = *insert dubstep jam 1200+DPS

A catalyst can break 1500 but with less tank, less speed and higher sig. Pretty scary if you ask me.


Assuming Fozzie is correct and the implementation stays the same, a RLML Tengu in a C6 W-R can drop 2340 DPS, and a cloaky RLML Tengu can drop ~1300 (with 50k EHP and 500k self-rep on Ancillary). With almost perfect damage application and 30km range to boot.

I mean, that's just silly.


I really hope this change goes through as is! 200 dps crows 450 dps talwars? Can fight anything out numbered and out gunned. I think the massive dps boosts will even out with the massive armor amounts.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#133 - 2014-08-08 00:00:26 UTC
Quote:
well in effect your statement says that your ****** doing anoms in a CV, so now your group has to move into a different variable. congrats you have made a new black hole system.....


Nope, only doing them the way you're doing them. Our method of escalations (triage carrier, staggered waves) will continue to work just fine.

I mean, the entire point of system effects is to force you to change your playstyle in those systems, to shake up the playing field. While I think the cap transfer nerf is overdoing it, as it breaks even sub-capital cap chains, I see no problem with a system effect that favors solo logi making it more difficult to successfully running chained logi operations in that system.
Adarnof
Super Secret Spaceship Syndicate
#134 - 2014-08-08 00:00:55 UTC
Daenika wrote:

So move to a non-Cataclysmic? I'm also not too sure how you manage to coordinate targeting and webbing with that many dreads on field. Even with 3, it gets rather chaotic. 5-6 dreads, you're going to have a lot of targeting overlap, BSes dying while others are still locking them, two dreads shooting at the same target, etc, and actually getting webs on all of those being shot will be nearly impossible (especially since it takes those BSes like 30 seconds to slow down from full speed).


Moving means admitting defeat. I will not be beaten by these changes!

And yes it is harder to coordinate, but when you start killing things too fast you just add more webbing lokis who alternate targets and preweb many in advance. Also dreads prelock 5-6 BSes (spacing when they start the lock so they never have more than 2 locked at once) to keep up.
the Infenro
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#135 - 2014-08-08 00:19:14 UTC  |  Edited by: the Infenro
Daenika wrote:
Quote:
well in effect your statement says that your ****** doing anoms in a CV, so now your group has to move into a different variable. congrats you have made a new black hole system.....


Nope, only doing them the way you're doing them. Our method of escalations (triage carrier, staggered waves) will continue to work just fine.

I mean, the entire point of system effects is to force you to change your playstyle in those systems, to shake up the playing field. While I think the cap transfer nerf is overdoing it, as it breaks even sub-capital cap chains, I see no problem with a system effect that favors solo logi making it more difficult to successfully running chained logi operations in that system.


with all respect, i lived in a c6 CV for 3 years, and have tried the non tras logi as a backbone to a fleet, and triage fits even in the current setup it is extremely hard to pull off triage carriers in a c6 due to you only get 50% of the self repair, meaning that you effectively use 4x the cap of normal to keep yourself up, while you can manage for a triage carrier it is hard, why most groups have gone to the pantheon setups. now the oirneros work to a certain degree (i have flown one before, the issue you run into is if you get energy neutralized. while this can be mitigated by bringing 5+ logi onto the field this still means that you need 2-3x the logi boats you need currently. and still have capacitor issues for the entire fleet. as it stands atm you can use 2 guardians using stage escalations)

The big issue with the old stats is that its harder to brake a cap chain not impossible tho i've seen it done with smart FC(s) and good tactics and pilots. if you wish to counter the old effects this can be done with ewar and or nos boosts, it would level the playing field for pvp while still retaining peoples ability to run anoms without making it the worst variable by far in the game, it already has less use than other effects, this change would cripple them as currently proposed primarily for small-mid sized groups
Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
#136 - 2014-08-08 03:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriana Nolen
ZOMG, what have you done to my precious mags. That drone tracking + TP nerf = I'm sure CCP studies my fleet comps.
Red giant bomb shens even more fun. Adding bomb aoe range bonus would also be hilarious.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#137 - 2014-08-08 03:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
the Infenro wrote:
Daenika wrote:
Quote:
well in effect your statement says that your ****** doing anoms in a CV, so now your group has to move into a different variable. congrats you have made a new black hole system.....


Nope, only doing them the way you're doing them. Our method of escalations (triage carrier, staggered waves) will continue to work just fine.

I mean, the entire point of system effects is to force you to change your playstyle in those systems, to shake up the playing field. While I think the cap transfer nerf is overdoing it, as it breaks even sub-capital cap chains, I see no problem with a system effect that favors solo logi making it more difficult to successfully running chained logi operations in that system.


with all respect, i lived in a c6 CV for 3 years, and have tried the non tras logi as a backbone to a fleet, and triage fits even in the current setup it is extremely hard to pull off triage carriers in a c6 due to you only get 50% of the self repair, meaning that you effectively use 4x the cap of normal to keep yourself up, while you can manage for a triage carrier it is hard, why most groups have gone to the pantheon setups. now the oirneros work to a certain degree (i have flown one before, the issue you run into is if you get energy neutralized. while this can be mitigated by bringing 5+ logi onto the field this still means that you need 2-3x the logi boats you need currently. and still have capacitor issues for the entire fleet. as it stands atm you can use 2 guardians using stage escalations)

The big issue with the old stats is that its harder to brake a cap chain not impossible tho i've seen it done with smart FC(s) and good tactics and pilots. if you wish to counter the old effects this can be done with ewar and or nos boosts, it would level the playing field for pvp while still retaining peoples ability to run anoms without making it the worst variable by far in the game, it already has less use than other effects, this change would cripple them as currently proposed primarily for small-mid sized groups


Could always chuck in some egress port rig, talismans... not really serious heh but theres ways around this for getting cap chains working.

Overall seems a bit of a strange change to CVs though I can see what it is supposed to do.
DG Athonille
Doomheim
#138 - 2014-08-08 05:42:12 UTC
Stepped back, read through the responses on CV's, and wanted to add flavor for the Dev and the community.

The original logic submitted was that some WH systems were underutilized, yet the specific logic for changing CV effect was to deter perceived issues with capital balance. I don't agree that Cataclysmic Variable system population across wormhole classes and high-end (C5/6) capital balance are linked at the hip. I am concerned that changes are being promoted to catas that have nothing to do with their specific system use and population.

Catas [to me] are defensive holes by virtue of the effects in place. The bonuses to RR make spider fleets from battleships through carriers the best option, but they also promote lower SP/smaller corporation fleet composition for PvE. The downside is lower ISK/hr redemption, however, that trade off is acceptable to smaller corporations. Concurrently, buffing RR fleets makes residents in catas more able to defend their system IMO, especially as they add carriers to the mix and accounting for mass restrictions on incoming forces. Since I have telegraphed enough intel already, this is exactly why our corporation selected a cata C6 to move UP to.

Alternatively there is the magnatar effect which IMO favors large corporations/alliances and promotes high ISK/hr returns. To me, catas and magnatars are diametrically opposed, and functional, system effects that allow corporations to tailor and adapt and succeed under differing influences.

Why is this perceived to be an imbalance issue? The middle of the missive in the original post was congratulatory towards pilots for adapting, and leveraging in unforeseen ways what has been encountered. More importantly, I cannot see how the proposed changes to cata would make it more favorable than it was previously. I think the proposed changes move it down to last in place. There is a fleet doctrine that works quite well in catas for those that care to go into catas. How will the proposed changes (and required doctrine changes) improve that? I cannot see it.

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#139 - 2014-08-08 06:28:57 UTC
Dunno, but an Orthrus as a doctrine ship for wolf-rayet home defense seems ridiculous in c5/c6 - meaning 1700-2100 dps fully selectable with rapid lights, crazy? That's like a pumped up proteus D:
Udonor
Doomheim
#140 - 2014-08-08 11:38:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Udonor
Your assumption about Black Holes low activity may be WRONG. Most WH PVP Is not by setting mutually agreed time and place for dueling.

Roll Consider that maybe when PVP roams go to black holes they currently seldom find anybody to fight !!! Roll

Most WH PVP is about roams for ambush tears or attempts at defending convoys or ISK making ops.
Maybe low PVP is due to no sleeper or site farmers settled in black holes. Is PVE farming harder or mining more difficult?

Oops So if you make WH more interesting places to fight , that does not ensure lots more PVP will occur there if the chances of encountering other players remains the same. Oops


Idea Consider making Black Holes into WH systems that lots of convoys want to travel through. Idea

(Convoys attract PVP roams due to value and flood of tears. People might even settle black holes as pirate bases!!! Meaning that black hole has people hanging around large amounts of time just looking for fights.)

How? One easy two step implementation is...

#1 Make Black Holes into WH space nexus points with say double the number of WH connections to other WH systems for class.
#2 Go one step further and give adjacent WH systems connected to black hole systems a greater chance of connecting to high sec or null sec.
Thus Null Sec folk can find shortcuts to high sec markets by traveling routes through Black hole systems.
Similarly higher class WH dwellers will also tend to find that routes to high sec markets pass through black holes systems.

Storywise you can say spinning black holes tend to generate or attract wh connections.


(Of course if you really just want to make it hard for bums to settle in WH systems - that is good too and you can ignore my observations. And despite the spin you would still be telling the true. Harder is simply harder and not forcing people out.)