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CCP, given that Suicide Gankers will do what they do, how about allowing some retribution?

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HellGate fr
#81 - 2011-11-23 17:14:43 UTC
This thread only proves that carebears have always and will forever whine about ganking, even when it's getting nerfed.

Go get a brain and don't get ganked you retards.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#82 - 2011-11-23 17:20:54 UTC
HellGate fr wrote:
This thread only proves that carebears have always and will forever whine about ganking, even when it's getting nerfed.

Go get a brain and don't get ganked you retards.
Pretty much.

Although many of us knew that the insurance wasn't the end of the whines, I actually do see that a change to the kill rights system may be a good thing.

I'm not sure about the whole corp being allowed to use the right, but I do see merit in trading rights.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2011-11-23 17:23:50 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Takseen wrote:
Because the averagehulk pilot's tools are blunt and useless.

Yes, but that's his choice — why should the game compensate for his (apparently) poor choice?
Quote:
Really there's no logical reason to argue against this, if you're really into the risk and reward element of Eve

Sure there is. First of all because it comes from someone who doesn't know or care about the mechanics he wants to change. That alone makes his idea highly suspect. Second of all (and probably as a consequence of that) because there are far better proposals that the OP doesn't know (or care?) about.

If you've seen a better proposal to fix killrights, then why not link the thread? Aside from then not being able to engage in pointless forum arguments :)
As for the argument that every hulk pilot should have to train combat skills to exercise his kill rights, why? Specialisation is a huge part of Eve Online gameplay, with alts existing for every almost role, including suicide ganking and mining. Combat pilots can follow bookmarks collected by a scout alt, they can warp to a beacon created by a cyno alt, they can suicide gank based on information gathered by a scouting alt, they can send and receive ISK from their market alts. But when a mining alt wants to farm out some killing duties to a combat character, suddenly that's not cool and he should have to the same dude?

The only decent argument I've seen against the idea is from the Goonswarm guy. His point being that if he ganks someone and the target and his corp come for revenge, they all get the first shot advantage before he can fire back, and if I understand it correctly the ganker's corpmates can't fire back at all. So on that basis perhaps trading kill rights on a one for one basis would work better? So any miners in an indy corp that get ganked pass the kill rights on to their enforcer combat pilot who is then in a position to return the favour, and you still get one one one encounters(to start with anyway).
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
#84 - 2011-11-23 17:25:27 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I am betting a ton of these elite PvP'ers would suddenly reconsider their operations if they rolled through a gate and saw 3 or 4 corp members waiting for him the next day. I mean, geez, they might actually get a loss mail then on their record, and that wouldn't do.

You overestimate the chances of non-PvPers. I've personally beaten gangs of 6-8 high sec bears easily in a single battlecruiser. Now, granted, not everyone in high sec is a complete **** in PvP (which I've also experienced).

"Shoot at anything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later."

"Do not be too positive. The light at the end of the tunnel could be a train." - Franz Kafka
Baaldor
Blackwater USA Inc.
Deepwater Hooligans
#85 - 2011-11-23 17:27:43 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Takseen wrote:
Because the averagehulk pilot's tools are blunt and useless.

Yes, but that's his choice — why should the game compensate for his (apparently) poor choice?
Quote:
Really there's no logical reason to argue against this, if you're really into the risk and reward element of Eve

Sure there is. First of all because it comes from someone who doesn't know or care about the mechanics he wants to change. That alone makes his idea highly suspect. Second of all (and probably as a consequence of that) because there are far better proposals that the OP doesn't know (or care?) about.

If you've seen a better proposal to fix killrights, then why not link the thread? Aside from then not being able to engage in pointless forum arguments :)
As for the argument that every hulk pilot should have to train combat skills to exercise his kill rights, why? Specialisation is a huge part of Eve Online gameplay, with alts existing for every almost role, including suicide ganking and mining. Combat pilots can follow bookmarks collected by a scout alt, they can warp to a beacon created by a cyno alt, they can suicide gank based on information gathered by a scouting alt, they can send and receive ISK from their market alts. But when a mining alt wants to farm out some killing duties to a combat character, suddenly that's not cool and he should have to the same dude?

The only decent argument I've seen against the idea is from the Goonswarm guy. His point being that if he ganks someone and the target and his corp come for revenge, they all get the first shot advantage before he can fire back, and if I understand it correctly the ganker's corpmates can't fire back at all. So on that basis perhaps trading kill rights on a one for one basis would work better? So any miners in an indy corp that get ganked pass the kill rights on to their enforcer combat pilot who is then in a position to return the favour, and you still get one one one encounters(to start with anyway).


So are you basing this Kill Right fix on just suicide ganks or all types of Kill Rights?
Sharise Dragonstar
Big Strong
#86 - 2011-11-23 17:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Sharise Dragonstar
Hulk Smasher wrote:
Sharise Dragonstar wrote:
I do agree a lot with what Tippia is saying but kill rights should be given to corp members of the victim. 

At the moment you can't and its kind of like a soldier not being allowed to shoot a known enemy that shot one of his squad mates....just does not make sense to me.


Why, my corp or alliance will not be able to shoot you. Kill rights give you an advantage as you can dictate the fight is 1 vs 1 (beyond a remote) and when to have the fight.

The revenge is personal. You don't get to pile up when your kill right can't do the same.


Why should I give you the chance to fight back, your suicide ganker gave my miner no chance to fight back. Whoever chooses to fight one on one deserves to lose their ship for being stupid, unless its a pre agreed duel. If someone shot and injured a squad mate would only the injured guy fight back or would his squadd mates shoot back.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#87 - 2011-11-23 17:35:11 UTC
Ancy Denaries wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I am betting a ton of these elite PvP'ers would suddenly reconsider their operations if they rolled through a gate and saw 3 or 4 corp members waiting for him the next day. I mean, geez, they might actually get a loss mail then on their record, and that wouldn't do.

You overestimate the chances of non-PvPers. I've personally beaten gangs of 6-8 high sec bears easily in a single battlecruiser. Now, granted, not everyone in high sec is a complete **** in PvP (which I've also experienced).


Let me put it this way.
In any corp I have been in, there has been a balance of industrials and PvP'ers.
If something like what I was put in place, I would think that the suicide ganker could expect a visit from the corp PvP'ers within 30 days.

Maybe my corps have been the exception.
But what I am proposing is a no-lose scenario for gankers, if they truly want PvP.
Hulk Smasher
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2011-11-23 17:42:37 UTC
Being able to trade kill rights with a redone bounty system would be good. You sell someone your kill rights as a bounty on them. You can then as the bounty hunter collect the bounty on the kill right for successful destruction. 

This would stop (mostly, I guess a bounty hunter could gank with alt but he would still need to get you to bounty te kill right to him) the huge issue that has broken the bounty system where I can just collect my own bounty. 

Problem is you still won't collect it if you just stick to high sec or they only appear to gank. Oh well. 
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2011-11-23 17:44:24 UTC
Baaldor wrote:


So are you basing this Kill Right fix on just suicide ganks or all types of Kill Rights?


I don't know, really. I'm just throwing ideas out there as I've no warfare experience, highsec or otherwise. I do like the idea that if you do kill someone in a situation where they get kill rights, then there is that potential danger lurking around for the next 30 days from the rest of their corp(because you don't know who got given the kill rights). I guess it might be a bit too scary/uncontrollable for some people?

I've no particular issue with suicide ganking, I just think kill rights probably go unused a lot of the time at the moment.
Hulk Smasher
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2011-11-23 17:51:39 UTC
Sharise Dragonstar wrote:
Hulk Smasher wrote:
Sharise Dragonstar wrote:
I do agree a lot with what Tippia is saying but kill rights should be given to corp members of the victim. 

At the moment you can't and its kind of like a soldier not being allowed to shoot a known enemy that shot one of his squad mates....just does not make sense to me.


Why, my corp or alliance will not be able to shoot you. Kill rights give you an advantage as you can dictate the fight is 1 vs 1 (beyond a remote) and when to have the fight. 

The revenge is personal. You don't get to pile up when your kill right can't do the same.


Why should I give you the chance to fight back, your suicide ganker gave my miner no chance to fight back. Whoever chooses to fight one on one deserves to lose their ship for being stupid, unless its a pre agreed duel. If someone shot and injured a squad mate would only the injured guy fight back or would his squadd mates shoot back.


Who said you do? You could gank me with the kill right and not worry about concord at all. That's what kill rights give you. A chance for personal revenge for the personal gank. 
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#91 - 2011-11-23 17:57:38 UTC
You guys do know that there's a button that lets you declare war on other corps right? If you want your entire corp to be able to shoot at someone for as long as you want you can use that.

Also if you made killrights transfer to corps I'd start suicide ganking just so loads of crappy highsec corps had kill rights on me, it would be awsome.
Mrs Sooperdudespaceman
Doomheim
#92 - 2011-11-23 18:05:49 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
You guys do know that there's a button that lets you declare war on other corps right? If you want your entire corp to be able to shoot at someone for as long as you want you can use that.

Also if you made killrights transfer to corps I'd start suicide ganking just so loads of crappy highsec corps had kill rights on me, it would be awsome.

Sshhh, let the lazy clueless bear have what he is asking for. Lol
Sharise Dragonstar
Big Strong
#93 - 2011-11-23 18:13:08 UTC
Hulk Smasher wrote:
Sharise Dragonstar wrote:
Hulk Smasher wrote:
Sharise Dragonstar wrote:
I do agree a lot with what Tippia is saying but kill rights should be given to corp members of the victim. 

At the moment you can't and its kind of like a soldier not being allowed to shoot a known enemy that shot one of his squad mates....just does not make sense to me.


Why, my corp or alliance will not be able to shoot you. Kill rights give you an advantage as you can dictate the fight is 1 vs 1 (beyond a remote) and when to have the fight. 

The revenge is personal. You don't get to pile up when your kill right can't do the same.


Why should I give you the chance to fight back, your suicide ganker gave my miner no chance to fight back. Whoever chooses to fight one on one deserves to lose their ship for being stupid, unless its a pre agreed duel. If someone shot and injured a squad mate would only the injured guy fight back or would his squadd mates shoot back.


Who said you do? You could gank me with the kill right and not worry about concord at all. That's what kill rights give you. A chance for personal revenge for the personal gank. 


And if my character is not able to gain revenge by themselves due to sp allocation or inexperience in low/null sec it makes it a free gank with no consequences for the ganker. I would not come after you alone unless it was 100% certain that I would win, that is what a corp is for. My point is aimed primarily at high sec gankers, people who just use alts and gank high sec miners and haulers. As I think you said I dont need a kill right to attack someone in low/null sec as the rules are different. Players should not be able to hide behind alts to feed there main isk without the main becoming vulnerable.
Hulk Smasher
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2011-11-23 18:25:40 UTC
If someone killed you for the isk you were flying a piggy bank. Remain an unattractive target and never fly what you can't afford to lose.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#95 - 2011-11-23 18:35:02 UTC
I have had dozens upon dozens of people with killrights on me. I have 6 right now.

Not once, at any point, has one bothered to try to get retribution.

The ganker is NOT warned that YOU have rights on HIM at all. You are NOT red on my overview. You can follow me around and strike your trap when YOU see fit and there is NOTHING short of running away I can do to stop you.

If you scram and dual web a battleship, there is **** all chance of it making it back to the gate to jump free. That's before you even bump it.

Anyone with enough skills to run a level 2 mission can PVP fit a T1 cruiser and take out a vast array of ships with some RR backing him.

You are terrible. You understand literally nothing of what is involved and want CCP to acknowledge your idea. Your idea based on false premises and a general failure to invent a strategy to deal with it.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#96 - 2011-11-23 18:37:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
If something like what I was put in place, I would think that the suicide ganker could expect a visit from the corp PvP'ers within 30 days.

Maybe my corps have been the exception.
But what I am proposing is a no-lose scenario for gankers, if they truly want PvP.

It's a no-win situation for the victim, if they're all as stupid as you.

I've not only ganked (whatever) and had my fun / ISK .... but I now have an endless stream of carebears trying to fight back? AWESOME.

I would suicide gank 5 times more, leading to 5 times the victims with your proposed changes.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2011-11-23 18:51:01 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
If something like what I was put in place, I would think that the suicide ganker could expect a visit from the corp PvP'ers within 30 days.

Maybe my corps have been the exception.
But what I am proposing is a no-lose scenario for gankers, if they truly want PvP.

It's a no-win situation for the victim, if they're all as stupid as you.
I've not only ganked (whatever) and had my fun / ISK .... but I now have an endless stream of carebears trying to fight back? AWESOME.
I would suicide gank 5 times more, leading to 5 times the victims with your proposed changes.

Great! Looks like everyone likes the idea then.

Baaldor
Blackwater USA Inc.
Deepwater Hooligans
#98 - 2011-11-23 19:04:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Baaldor
Sharise Dragonstar wrote:


And if my character is not able to gain revenge by themselves due to sp allocation or inexperience in low/null sec it makes it a free gank with no consequences for the ganker. I would not come after you alone unless it was 100% certain that I would win, that is what a corp is for.


Typical. You have no clue what you are talking about, and it shows that you have no grasp of the game it self.

Sharise Dragonstar wrote:
My point is aimed primarily at high sec gankers, people who just use alts and gank high sec miners and haulers. As I think you said I dont need a kill right to attack someone in low/null sec as the rules are different. Players should not be able to hide behind alts to feed there main isk without the main becoming vulnerable.


I suicide gank on my main when it suits me.

I do not use an alt to do this.

I have 60+ kill rights on me right now. (It has been slow, holidays and all) I will send you the ******* list, you can gather up a pose.

The gate / station guns will not shoot at you or your corp/ gang / fleet no mater where you are if you agress me.

You / Your corp / gang or fleet will not receive a sec hit if you all come after me.

I am vulnerable, you have everything in your favor.

So now what?
Hauling Hal
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2011-11-23 19:10:01 UTC
Hulk Smasher wrote:
Being able to trade kill rights with a redone bounty system would be good. You sell someone your kill rights as a bounty on them. You can then as the bounty hunter collect the bounty on the kill right for successful destruction. 

This would stop (mostly, I guess a bounty hunter could gank with alt but he would still need to get you to bounty te kill right to him) the huge issue that has broken the bounty system where I can just collect my own bounty. 

Problem is you still won't collect it if you just stick to high sec or they only appear to gank. Oh well. 


Selling kill rights would be awesome, but I wouldn't buy them for the bounty.
Sharise Dragonstar
Big Strong
#100 - 2011-11-23 19:14:40 UTC
Baaldor wrote:
Sharise Dragonstar wrote:


And if my character is not able to gain revenge by themselves due to sp allocation or inexperience in low/null sec it makes it a free gank with no consequences for the ganker. I would not come after you alone unless it was 100% certain that I would win, that is what a corp is for.


Typical. You have no clue what you are talking about, and it shows that you have no grasp of the game it self.

Sharise Dragonstar wrote:
My point is aimed primarily at high sec gankers, people who just use alts and gank high sec miners and haulers. As I think you said I dont need a kill right to attack someone in low/null sec as the rules are different. Players should not be able to hide behind alts to feed there main isk without the main becoming vulnerable.


I suicide gank on my main when it suits me.

I do not use an alt to do this.

I have 60+ kill rights on me right now. (It has been slow, holidays and all) I will send you the ******* list, you can gather up a pose.

The gate / station guns will not shoot at you or your corp/ gang / fleet no mater where you are if you agress me.

You / Your corp / gang or fleet will not receive a sec hit if you all come after me.

I am vulnerable, you have everything in your favor.

So now what?


i dont have a problem with you, you gank on your main and any individual who has kill rights on you can use them to kill you. When you gank someone you are aware of the possible consequences to your main character. If you ever ganked me i would assess any situation where i had the possibility of revenge and if situation was heavily in my favour I would take it. My problem is with alts who gank and all the benefits of the gank goes to their main character who suffers none of the consequences.

My argument for enabling corp members of the victim be able to enact the kill right is just common sense, freinds and allies stick together. If someone was to mug my best mate in RL I would kick the **** out of the person responsible if i ever met them and I am sure a lot of other people would. Similar principles should be allowed in eve.