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CCP, given that Suicide Gankers will do what they do, how about allowing some retribution?

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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#21 - 2011-11-22 00:38:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Now you are being obtuse. The existing kill rights mechanism works on an individual level, and is inadequate for the vast majority of indy alts to seek retribution.
In other words (again, and until you get the point I'm making), they have chosen to make use of the tools available.

Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Tippia, as much as I appreciate you fighting the good fight for the sake of this game's integrity, I think you should actually not argue against this proposal.

Nah, I think I will, partly because the OP admits to not knowing or caring about the mechanics he want to discuss (which means he has no business discussing them) and partly because it's a pretty awful idea compared to the oft-proposed alternatives.



Tippia, you can try to derail the thread.
The title of the thread was aimed at CCP.

Their opinion matters, not yours.
Jita Alt666
#22 - 2011-11-22 00:41:21 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


I believe there is something in my journals about having killrights for 30 days after someone nails me.
Not sure how that mechanic works, nor specifically care.

But CCP, what I AM suggesting to a modification of that kill right.
Make it activate in such a manner that if someone is suicide ganked in a corp, the ENTIRE corp has kill rights on that suicide ganker for 30 days.


The contradiction here is pathetic:

I don't know how the mechanic works.
I don't Care.
Change it.

Seriously. Shut Up.

JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#23 - 2011-11-22 00:55:26 UTC
The overall problem with the proposal is that it assumes the gankers have any interest in their gank alt. Or that blowing up said alt would do anything to ruin their day. Which is of course preposterous. I've been ganked once. Got careless moving 40M or so out of Jita. Checked the KRs for that toon and saw that I had rights on a character maybe a couple weeks old (told you, careless. transpo in an unfit frig.). I mean it can't fly anything worth killing. If it could I would have been docked with a locator fitting a PvP ship. As it is he likely transferred anything of value to another toon and has stopped any training on the gank alt some time ago now. This is the real problem with the mechanic. There is really no risk on the ganker's end. And extended kill rights would not create any.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Brusanan
Sons of Seyllin
Sedition.
#24 - 2011-11-22 00:56:06 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Fair enough. Let me paraphrase to make sure I am understanding what you are saying:
Under the current game mechanics, if the suicide ganker is attacked by a past indy victim, say with minimal skills (but has to have the ability to fit a scram/disrupter to get the initial tackle), the indy victim's corp buddies can keep on RR'ing the indy victim with no chance of the suicide ganker shooting the RR corp buddies?

No. If your friends bring ships with both RR and a bit of DPS (Like a hospital Domi, which has 400+ DPS on top of good repping capabilities), getting shot at would be a good thing. Once the target shoots one of your friends, they can start shooting him back, tilting the fight even more in your favor.

Quote:
And even if it did, the suicide ganker would be able to burn back to a gate and jump long before the industrial with the poor PvP skills could bring down the suicide ganker's ship. Somehow, I think some indy alt with say L2 in medium autocannons and BC III, in a Cane against a Tornado, not much chance of bringing down the Tornado.

There are ways of getting around that as well. Bumping them off the station or gate could work. Or you can hope they stay aggressed. If they want to jump or dock, they will have to wait at least a minute from the last time they shot you.
Brusanan
Sons of Seyllin
Sedition.
#25 - 2011-11-22 00:59:10 UTC
JitaJane wrote:
The overall problem with the proposal is that it assumes the gankers have any interest in their gank alt. Or that blowing up said alt would do anything to ruin their day. Which is of course preposterous. I've been ganked once. Got careless moving 40M or so out of Jita. Checked the KRs for that toon and saw that I had rights on a character maybe a couple weeks old (told you, careless. transpo in an unfit frig.). I mean it can't fly anything worth killing. If it could I would have been docked with a locator fitting a PvP ship. As it is he likely transferred anything of value to another toon and has stopped any training on the gank alt some time ago now. This is the real problem with the mechanic. There is really no risk on the ganker's end. And extended kill rights would not create any.

Plenty of pilots suicide gank with their mains, or at least alts they actually care about. The same would apply to lowsec ganks as well.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#26 - 2011-11-22 01:07:04 UTC
Brusanan wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Fair enough. Let me paraphrase to make sure I am understanding what you are saying:
Under the current game mechanics, if the suicide ganker is attacked by a past indy victim, say with minimal skills (but has to have the ability to fit a scram/disrupter to get the initial tackle), the indy victim's corp buddies can keep on RR'ing the indy victim with no chance of the suicide ganker shooting the RR corp buddies?

No. If your friends bring ships with both RR and a bit of DPS (Like a hospital Domi, which has 400+ DPS on top of good repping capabilities), getting shot at would be a good thing. Once the target shoots one of your friends, they can start shooting him back, tilting the fight even more in your favor.

Quote:
And even if it did, the suicide ganker would be able to burn back to a gate and jump long before the industrial with the poor PvP skills could bring down the suicide ganker's ship. Somehow, I think some indy alt with say L2 in medium autocannons and BC III, in a Cane against a Tornado, not much chance of bringing down the Tornado.

There are ways of getting around that as well. Bumping them off the station or gate could work. Or you can hope they stay aggressed. If they want to jump or dock, they will have to wait at least a minute from the last time they shot you.


I have fought enough in high sec wars, wh's, and 0.0 to know that what you are suggesting works in theory, not practice most of the the time. If you fit a warp disrupter (scram you have a shot, but has to be so much closer) to a ship, unless you have webs on the target as well, the target will likely get back to the gate.

Now, if the suicide ganker jumps through a gate, and there is a Lach with a 18km scram mounted, and Huggin with 40 km webs, suddenly that suicide ganker has a problem.
Maybe I have been lucky, or maybe it has been by design. The corps I have been in have been balanced corps, with industry and serious PvP capabilities. Maybe I am indeed overestimating the PvP capabilities of most industrial corps.

But at least this proposed mechanic might give an indy corp an opportunity.

JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#27 - 2011-11-22 01:55:52 UTC
Brusanan wrote:
JitaJane wrote:
The overall problem with the proposal is that it assumes the gankers have any interest in their gank alt. Or that blowing up said alt would do anything to ruin their day. Which is of course preposterous. I've been ganked once. Got careless moving 40M or so out of Jita. Checked the KRs for that toon and saw that I had rights on a character maybe a couple weeks old (told you, careless. transpo in an unfit frig.). I mean it can't fly anything worth killing. If it could I would have been docked with a locator fitting a PvP ship. As it is he likely transferred anything of value to another toon and has stopped any training on the gank alt some time ago now. This is the real problem with the mechanic. There is really no risk on the ganker's end. And extended kill rights would not create any.

Plenty of pilots suicide gank with their mains, or at least alts they actually care about. The same would apply to lowsec ganks as well.


Who?
New players who read about ganking and dive right in (again not capable of flying anything worth killing)?
Low and Null seccers jumping on the goonwagon for lulz? Again not flying (or wearing implants) that are worth a damn?
Naturally the aggressions mechanics are different for low sec. That is why it is low sec.
I realize here that you are trying to defend a manner of play you deem 'fun'. I have not denied that or suggested any change in aggression or other game mechanics to combat it (if anything I was arguing against a change in mechanics). The fact remains that the bulk of hi sec ganks are gank-alts. And that there is little point in using KRs on a gank alt. It has been that way for years.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Baaldor
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2011-11-22 02:11:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Baaldor
JitaJane wrote:
Brusanan wrote:
JitaJane wrote:
The overall problem with the proposal is that it assumes the gankers have any interest in their gank alt. Or that blowing up said alt would do anything to ruin their day. Which is of course preposterous. I've been ganked once. Got careless moving 40M or so out of Jita. Checked the KRs for that toon and saw that I had rights on a character maybe a couple weeks old (told you, careless. transpo in an unfit frig.). I mean it can't fly anything worth killing. If it could I would have been docked with a locator fitting a PvP ship. As it is he likely transferred anything of value to another toon and has stopped any training on the gank alt some time ago now. This is the real problem with the mechanic. There is really no risk on the ganker's end. And extended kill rights would not create any.

Plenty of pilots suicide gank with their mains, or at least alts they actually care about. The same would apply to lowsec ganks as well.


Who?
New players who read about ganking and dive right in (again not capable of flying anything worth killing)?
Low and Null seccers jumping on the goonwagon for lulz? Again not flying (or wearing implants) that are worth a damn?
Naturally the aggressions mechanics are different for low sec. That is why it is low sec.
I realize here that you are trying to defend a manner of play you deem 'fun'. I have not denied that or suggested any change in aggression or other game mechanics to combat it (if anything I was arguing against a change in mechanics). The fact remains that the bulk of hi sec ganks are gank-alts. And that there is little point in using KRs on a gank alt. It has been that way for years.


I have suicide ganked on my main...it is quite fun.

I actually know quite a few mates through out the years slamming disco ravens and domi's into macks, freighters and such with their mains.

So now what?

Don't assume unless you actually know ****.
Brusanan
Sons of Seyllin
Sedition.
#29 - 2011-11-22 02:20:49 UTC
JitaJane wrote:
Who?
New players who read about ganking and dive right in (again not capable of flying anything worth killing)?
Low and Null seccers jumping on the goonwagon for lulz? Again not flying (or wearing implants) that are worth a damn?
Naturally the aggressions mechanics are different for low sec. That is why it is low sec.
I realize here that you are trying to defend a manner of play you deem 'fun'. I have not denied that or suggested any change in aggression or other game mechanics to combat it (if anything I was arguing against a change in mechanics). The fact remains that the bulk of hi sec ganks are gank-alts. And that there is little point in using KRs on a gank alt. It has been that way for years.

I suicide gank with my main. So do plenty of my alliance mates. But my advice wasn't necessarily for collecting killrights on suicide gankers, just collecting killrights in general. The fact that you can't get back at suicide gank alts is pretty much irrelevant to the OP's suggestion, and there really is no possible fix for it that isn't game-breaking.

As a side note, so few people actually collect killrights these days that we tend to surprise the **** out of other PVPers when we go and collect ours. It's really quite convenient.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#30 - 2011-11-22 02:44:27 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Actually, I don't really think many on either side of the fence would object to some version of this being introduced.

That being said, and yes I've felt the need to repeat this chestnut often lately...

... be careful what you wish for...




Come to think of it, there is not so much a "revenge mechanic" beyond kill rights and bounties.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
THXBYE
Elite War Squad
#31 - 2011-11-22 02:46:09 UTC
qq more

Universal PvP System Mode: ..default.aspx?g=posts&t=38634 In Game Laws, Fines and Taxes: ..default.aspx?g=posts&t=36124 Stations and NPC Services Costs: ..default.aspx?g=posts&t=39038
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-11-22 02:47:16 UTC
Brusanan wrote:
JitaJane wrote:
Who?
New players who read about ganking and dive right in (again not capable of flying anything worth killing)?
Low and Null seccers jumping on the goonwagon for lulz? Again not flying (or wearing implants) that are worth a damn?
Naturally the aggressions mechanics are different for low sec. That is why it is low sec.
I realize here that you are trying to defend a manner of play you deem 'fun'. I have not denied that or suggested any change in aggression or other game mechanics to combat it (if anything I was arguing against a change in mechanics). The fact remains that the bulk of hi sec ganks are gank-alts. And that there is little point in using KRs on a gank alt. It has been that way for years.

I suicide gank with my main. So do plenty of my alliance mates. But my advice wasn't necessarily for collecting killrights on suicide gankers, just collecting killrights in general. The fact that you can't get back at suicide gank alts is pretty much irrelevant to the OP's suggestion, and there really is no possible fix for it that isn't game-breaking.

As a side note, so few people actually collect killrights these days that we tend to surprise the **** out of other PVPers when we go and collect ours. It's really quite convenient.

Cool story bro. I wasted 5 minutes of my time and looked at your killboard a bit. Did not see any highsec hulk kills. Or haulers for that matter.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

THXBYE
Elite War Squad
#33 - 2011-11-22 02:48:21 UTC
JitaJane wrote:
Brusanan wrote:
JitaJane wrote:
Who?
New players who read about ganking and dive right in (again not capable of flying anything worth killing)?
Low and Null seccers jumping on the goonwagon for lulz? Again not flying (or wearing implants) that are worth a damn?
Naturally the aggressions mechanics are different for low sec. That is why it is low sec.
I realize here that you are trying to defend a manner of play you deem 'fun'. I have not denied that or suggested any change in aggression or other game mechanics to combat it (if anything I was arguing against a change in mechanics). The fact remains that the bulk of hi sec ganks are gank-alts. And that there is little point in using KRs on a gank alt. It has been that way for years.

I suicide gank with my main. So do plenty of my alliance mates. But my advice wasn't necessarily for collecting killrights on suicide gankers, just collecting killrights in general. The fact that you can't get back at suicide gank alts is pretty much irrelevant to the OP's suggestion, and there really is no possible fix for it that isn't game-breaking.

As a side note, so few people actually collect killrights these days that we tend to surprise the **** out of other PVPers when we go and collect ours. It's really quite convenient.

Cool story bro. I wasted 5 minutes of my time and looked at your killboard a bit. Did not see any highsec hulk kills. Or haulers for that matter.


this

Universal PvP System Mode: ..default.aspx?g=posts&t=38634 In Game Laws, Fines and Taxes: ..default.aspx?g=posts&t=36124 Stations and NPC Services Costs: ..default.aspx?g=posts&t=39038
MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
#34 - 2011-11-22 02:50:16 UTC
Just make the bounty system viable.

I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#35 - 2011-11-22 03:36:05 UTC
THXBYE wrote:
JitaJane wrote:
Brusanan wrote:
JitaJane wrote:
Who?
New players who read about ganking and dive right in (again not capable of flying anything worth killing)?
Low and Null seccers jumping on the goonwagon for lulz? Again not flying (or wearing implants) that are worth a damn?
Naturally the aggressions mechanics are different for low sec. That is why it is low sec.
I realize here that you are trying to defend a manner of play you deem 'fun'. I have not denied that or suggested any change in aggression or other game mechanics to combat it (if anything I was arguing against a change in mechanics). The fact remains that the bulk of hi sec ganks are gank-alts. And that there is little point in using KRs on a gank alt. It has been that way for years.

I suicide gank with my main. So do plenty of my alliance mates. But my advice wasn't necessarily for collecting killrights on suicide gankers, just collecting killrights in general. The fact that you can't get back at suicide gank alts is pretty much irrelevant to the OP's suggestion, and there really is no possible fix for it that isn't game-breaking.

As a side note, so few people actually collect killrights these days that we tend to surprise the **** out of other PVPers when we go and collect ours. It's really quite convenient.

Cool story bro. I wasted 5 minutes of my time and looked at your killboard a bit. Did not see any highsec hulk kills. Or haulers for that matter.


this

*bows*

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

THXBYE
Elite War Squad
#36 - 2011-11-22 14:01:43 UTC
JitaJane wrote:
THXBYE wrote:
JitaJane wrote:
Brusanan wrote:
JitaJane wrote:
Who?
New players who read about ganking and dive right in (again not capable of flying anything worth killing)?
Low and Null seccers jumping on the goonwagon for lulz? Again not flying (or wearing implants) that are worth a damn?
Naturally the aggressions mechanics are different for low sec. That is why it is low sec.
I realize here that you are trying to defend a manner of play you deem 'fun'. I have not denied that or suggested any change in aggression or other game mechanics to combat it (if anything I was arguing against a change in mechanics). The fact remains that the bulk of hi sec ganks are gank-alts. And that there is little point in using KRs on a gank alt. It has been that way for years.

I suicide gank with my main. So do plenty of my alliance mates. But my advice wasn't necessarily for collecting killrights on suicide gankers, just collecting killrights in general. The fact that you can't get back at suicide gank alts is pretty much irrelevant to the OP's suggestion, and there really is no possible fix for it that isn't game-breaking.

As a side note, so few people actually collect killrights these days that we tend to surprise the **** out of other PVPers when we go and collect ours. It's really quite convenient.

Cool story bro. I wasted 5 minutes of my time and looked at your killboard a bit. Did not see any highsec hulk kills. Or haulers for that matter.


this

*bows*


Yep

Universal PvP System Mode: ..default.aspx?g=posts&t=38634 In Game Laws, Fines and Taxes: ..default.aspx?g=posts&t=36124 Stations and NPC Services Costs: ..default.aspx?g=posts&t=39038
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#37 - 2011-11-23 07:39:02 UTC
Bump to first page.
Not interested about hearing from gankers or victims.

Just want to get acknowledgement from CCP that implementing some retribution system, any system, would be superior to the existing one and is being looked at.
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#38 - 2011-11-23 07:57:23 UTC
@Op,

You don't get it. Gankers do not want any procedure or process which will in any way impede their manner of gameplay.
It really does not matter what they're saying in this thread or any other thread - and there are many,

As soon as you make a suggestion, even if it is a good suggestion, the gank-tears flood the forums. Worse than the gank victims by far.

So although your intentions are well-founded, gankers will gank - mostly in Hisec because they can. because it's cheap and because it's easy, with very little retribution in return. That is why your ideas will be trodden-on and shot down and you will be told you do not know what you're talking about.

Gankers ideally do not want miers to mine, they want them to tank their ships, a process which kind of nullifies the function of the ship itself. They will rationalise that there are "tools" and methods which can be used to counteract and minimise ganking. It's a mindset you will not be able to change, no matter what.

+1 to you for being courageous enough to even post about the possibility of some realistic retribution.

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#39 - 2011-11-23 08:03:42 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
@Op,

You don't get it. Gankers do not want any procedure or process which will in any way impede their manner of gameplay.
It really does not matter what they're saying in this thread or any other thread - and there are many,

As soon as you make a suggestion, even if it is a good suggestion, the gank-tears flood the forums. Worse than the gank victims by far.

So although your intentions are well-founded, gankers will gank - mostly in Hisec because they can. because it's cheap and because it's easy, with very little retribution in return. That is why your ideas will be trodden-on and shot down and you will be told you do not know what you're talking about.

Gankers ideally do not want miers to mine, they want them to tank their ships, a process which kind of nullifies the function of the ship itself. They will rationalise that there are "tools" and methods which can be used to counteract and minimise ganking. It's a mindset you will not be able to change, no matter what.

+1 to you for being courageous enough to even post about the possibility of some realistic retribution.


Uh, no, we do want procedures and processes that will impede our manner of gameplay. Do not presume about that which you do not know.

I'd enjoy ganking ten times as much if the victims actually tried to get some kind of revenge. I guess this is somewhat of a Catch-22 though, since now it means that you would be hurting me more by not getting revenge, even though getting revenge is supposed to be the act that hurts me in the first place...

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#40 - 2011-11-23 08:45:56 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Uh, no, we do want procedures and processes that will impede our manner of gameplay. Do not presume about that which you do not know.

I'd enjoy ganking ten times as much if the victims actually tried to get some kind of revenge. I guess this is somewhat of a Catch-22 though, since now it means that you would be hurting me more by not getting revenge, even though getting revenge is supposed to be the act that hurts me in the first place...


Smoke and mirrors. Read all the other posters referrencing ganking in these forums. No need for me to presume anything about the current state of affairs, do you think that being a ganker makes you the end-all of any discussion about it ? I could just as easily flip the coin and say the same thing when presumptions are made about the non-combat miners.

PvP ? Wrong term to be using for ganking. It should be ACP vs NCP.
Advanced Combat Pilot vs Non-Combat Pilot.
Oh wait! It's still PvP! Yeah right. Big difference though, but wait, it's "their own fault". Haha!!

I have way more respect for gate campers and PvP in low and nullsec than any type of ganking in highsec. You're making easy killboard paddings to inflate your ego's and that's all it comes down to. Tears ? Hahahaha!! Ganker tears are the best tears ever.



COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance