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Distance that you're being ejected out of a wormhole depends on mass

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Author
Aelyras Altol
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#641 - 2014-08-05 21:12:18 UTC
Van Kuzco wrote:
Why not just invert the changes? Small things exit a WH further away and big things exit closer.

This way kiting/shield cruiser fleets can actually be a viable meta. It would result in a much larger variety of fleet compositions rather than just brawling armor fleets.


Beat you to it sorry =(
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#642 - 2014-08-05 21:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Aelyras Altol wrote:
This has no doubt been said elsewhere in the thread, but why don't they reverse the implementation of this, make it so the larger your ships mass, less it drifts from the hole. With this rolling will go on unchanged, while allowing possible change away from the armor brawling fleets into other setups due to landing outside scram/web range of most ships.


The problem is when you change core physics, you have significant secondary effects that need to be understood and designed around, and that is a major undertaking.

Randomly shaking things up results in a messy pile of disorganised unpleasantness.

Things don't naturally order themselves, they need thought and planning.

They do not seem to have reached that point.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#643 - 2014-08-05 21:15:13 UTC
Aelyras Altol wrote:
Van Kuzco wrote:
Why not just invert the changes? Small things exit a WH further away and big things exit closer.

This way kiting/shield cruiser fleets can actually be a viable meta. It would result in a much larger variety of fleet compositions rather than just brawling armor fleets.


Beat you to it sorry =(


You were typing this up as I was talking about it in mumble werent you!
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
#644 - 2014-08-05 21:57:51 UTC
It's taking away the control of wormholes(defense and offense) in some way, isnt it?
Is that really a bad idea? If it will keep chains open it will create content for sure.
It's just not that easy anymore to select your wanted content(weaker corp Twisted) - is that the point?
Samsara Nolte
Untethered
#645 - 2014-08-05 22:35:03 UTC
Dear CCP Devolopers who are in charge of this propositon,

in response to that and on behalf of our Alliance, we deemed it necessary to write something regarding your, in this thread stated, intentions.

As you may know the majority of the wormhole residing corps and alliances are pretty small compared to the null and low sec ones.
This is, depending in what wormhole you reside in, not solely a choice by the corps but a restriction of the hole itself. There´s a certain limit of isk to be made inside your Home system depending on the class of it.
Then contrary to popular belief living in w-space not only earns you isk but also costs you.
You have to pay for the fuel your pos is constantly consuming, and in contrast to low and nullsec residents our poses aren´ t paying for themselves through moon-mining – a passive income.
In fact in my opinion, w-space doesn´ t have any form of passive income – let me elaborate this
PI: we have no local the act of getting our produced stuff from poco´s in itself is a great deal of risk contrary to parts of space where you have local – you never know if next to the poco you are warping sits a cloaky interdictor waiting for you to land on grid to be ready to bubble an kill your ship and your Pod (the last thing especially is for w-space residents a cruel thing to happen ... more to this later)
Any form of Production be it reaction or other things can´t be considered passive because there is a huge deal of effort necessary to get your base materials inside your wh.
And considering what kind of hole you live in, you might have to expose your ship your cargo and your capsule to the risk of having to jump through a number of inhabited wormholes – which is exorbitant more dangerous than being able to cyno your things from station to station.

This pretty much forces us WH-Resindents to actually play eve and this more than once a month or week, which is, in most cases, the intervall null sec ones have to empty their silos for their pos to be paid.

We WH- residents accepted a great deal of inconveniences for us to live here.
Dangerous and complex logistics
the lack of the ability to Clone jump to wherever we want – the most stressing of them not being able to jump inside our Wormhole we live in.
What means in most cases losing your pod requires your buddys to search you a way back inside and for you to travel ,in most cases, some pretty big distances 20 or a a lot more jumps ... which spells for most activities at this evening that you are out
– whats entirely different in other parts of space ... (lost your capsule – no biggie my med station is 1-2 jumps out – hell it might even be in the same system i lost it before) Here a capsule loss means the end of the Line for at least an hour, given the time most of us have at hand after work this is a rather great source of annoyance.
What in iteslf is more than just a minor inconvenience – it migt spell the loss of all our assets.
Let me illustrate this a bit further -
Wormholes the connections to our home can be closed by collapsing them and they also die of old age. So if we, small as we are, were to take a fight where we are wiped out and all of our capsules are killed, we might, given the momentarily connections to our wh, loss the ability to get back in again – (sure, we like every other wh-corp worth their isk, have failsaves like neut scouts etc ... but there is a possibility, a not exactly low one, depending on the redundancy you have, that this might also fail ) This would result in nothing less than the loss of all our, in our poses stored, assets. Since rediscovering your wh has a relatively slim chance of success. And the moment our Pos´es used up their last fuel blocks there will be some guys for which the discovery of our towers will make them their day most likely week.
And all it might take for us to lose all our assets will be, to take an unfavourable engagment against a bigger entity. What also is something exclusive to w-space no where else results the loss of one engagment in the possible loss of all your assets – sov outpost aren´t destroyable you can be just denyied acces to your assets nothing more ...
and at NPC station it can´t even be done that

Something we don´t have much problems with at the moment because it would have been hopefully our decision to engage other entites
– so to speak our fault that we lost everything.-

to be continued
Samsara Nolte
Untethered
#646 - 2014-08-05 22:35:50 UTC
But if you decide to implement this proposition in the game that´s gonna change ...
Now every time we want to roll our static it not only takes a significantly longer time to do just that
– and as it has been pointed out on countless ocassions throughout this thread rolling your static is what creates our content ! What means it is a necessity not something we have fun doing but have to similiar to scanning ... -
now it puts us at an increased risk of getting either trapped by a well planned closing of at this point already damaged wh from the local residents or they just kill you during the time your big ship slowboats back to the wh.
Bigger entitites will be a able to mitigate this risk by first jumping their fleet on the other side bubble up the hole and then bring the big ships ... but smaller entities such as my alliance won´t be able to do that.
When we roll or are rolled into by bigger entitites and there a lot which are exactly that bigger than we are -
we won´t be able to close our connections to them except we are willing to sacrifice some orcas and a capital ship ... other methods of closing a wh let´s face it are just to time consuming. I dont wanna close a 3B wh with100Mn cruisers – and since mass is the factor which decides how far you are off the wh ... this pretty much doesn´t change much ...
i for one would rather sit in a capital througout a fight than in a, for use of an 100mn propulsion mod pimped, cruiser which hasn´t enough powergrid to carry more than one or two weapons ...
So the standard conversation taking place after a big Fisch "a noteworthy wh-corp" rolls into us is gonna be.
Player1 "So, which one wants to sacrifice his capital ship and his pod so that the rest of us can play ... not even ensuring the hole is closed after this... becaus it´s gonna be held at place on the otherside preventing it from coming back thus averting the closing of said wh ... which leaves us pretty much at the same point we started ..."
Player2 "Nah, we had "insert random noteworthy wh-corp" yesterday an the day before that "insert another random noteworthy wh-corp" which means so far i haven´t made any isk this week how do you expect me to replace this "sure as hell gonna happen loss of my ship and capsule" let alone pay my pos fuel ... i say lets play World of Tanks (WoT) perhaps we have more luck tomorrow"
I don´t know how often this scenario has to repeat itself for most of the smaller wh-entities before their pain threshold is excceeded and they decide to vacate their wormhole or perhaps even leave eve.
I mean we w-space residents are used to endure inconveniences and are very very patient.
But what i can say for certain is, that when this goes live my Alliance either has to join a powerblock of w-space or has to leave w-space alltogether because when this is implemented, we wont be able to play "our game" any longer or have the income to mitigate the losses this is gonna force on us.
And most of the guys we could fight against without being outnumbered 4to1 are gonna share our fate.
And to be honest i´cant tell how many of the older eve player inside my alliance are gonna quit eve after this – they for the most part, in contrast to myself, have been everywhere and done everything in eve and decided for themselves w-space or nothing ... they won´t return to null or low that much i can assure you ...

Since it´s most of the time quite fun to play with them i urge you to reconsider this change, than i really don´t wanna start playing WoT to continue play something with them
and i apologize for sounding like someone who has to explain the w-space part of the game to you ... but you previous propositon for w-space
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=331782
and now this one leads me to believe you don´t really know what you are talking about, and quite a number of other w-space residents, shown clearly by the number of posts this thread has that pretty muc state the same, obviously share my opinion regarding this. And if you consider our numbers (of actual wh-residents) this has huge proportions ...
And i´ dont necessarily expect you to have a clue about every part of eve let alone w-space, but if you don´t have please listen to those who have – first of all in this case listen to our CSM we w-space residents went through a great deal of trouble to get elected ... and listen to us ... there are to be found many many great ideas in the froums given to you by the community which are able to spice things up in w-space without breaking it for most of us. We are, for the most part, small entities and want to stay that way, thats the beauty of living in w-space you don´t need to have 4000 people and countless titans to be succesfull in here ... please don´t take that away from us.
And correct me if im wrong – but isn´t exactly that – the necessity to be big and constantly get bigger – the reason why null is so boring and stagnat filled with substitute conflicts rather than real ones... instead of adding things to w-space that favour the big you should add things that favour the small, the more non aligned groups you have, the more conflict it will create ... we want to keep our patchwork rug !


With regards
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#647 - 2014-08-05 22:40:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Chitsa Jason wrote:
So I read it most though the thread. In the end I do agree with a change but I do not agree with current implementation. What I think is that CCP and CSM should get more varied feedback in the form of talking to wspace community. It would be great to get game designers and some major wspace movers on same comms and just to see what happens.

My personal opinion is that this change is neither good or bad. It is more of a shakeup of wspace.

TLDR: Wspace talk to the devs, try to channel your opinions through the sources you got avialible.


I hear that you were the main proponent for this idea. In your opinion what do you consider an acceptable range limit (eg within x of wormhole) for a carrier after a wormhole jump?

To be clear, i'm not asking what you discussed with CCP, i'm asking for your personal opinion as a regular player.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#648 - 2014-08-05 23:12:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
....


Wait a minute... If what i'm hearing about polarization timers is true, you can forget everything i've said in support of the proposal.

Seriously, these two things combined will be some jita riots, call for the firing of a developer, threaten the cancel my account level of bullshit!
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#649 - 2014-08-05 23:44:46 UTC
Andrew Jester wrote:
To be fair, something like this is already in place in k-space with gates, which is what WHs essentially are. Changing it by mass it ********, but spawning not immediately within jump range isn't the end of the world.

Yes WHs are meant to be different than k-space, and you're all special unique flowers, but you may get more beneficial results by accepting that this will go into the game and start trying to lobby for either a flat spawn distance (~5-12km) or to greatly decrease the amount that mass affects spawn distance.



You're prescribing we take a defeatist attitude, give in, give up, and hope for the best?? That's not exactly in the spirit of the wh crowd.
Traiori
Going Critical
#650 - 2014-08-05 23:48:21 UTC
Quote:
If what i'm hearing about polarization timers is true, you can forget everything i've said in support of the proposal.


Agreed. Polarisation timers is what lets us kill null blobs and fight around losec holes. It lets us catch people jumping into hisec quickly to propagate their mapper tools. It lets us catch capitals and orcas that are rolling.

Who the heck thought up these changes and why are they breaking one of the few areas in the game that doesn't have completely broken core mechanics?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#651 - 2014-08-05 23:49:54 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
....


Wait a minute... If what i'm hearing about polarization timers is true, you can forget everything i've said in support of the proposal.

Seriously, these two things combined will be some jita riots, call for the firing of a developer, threaten the cancel my account level of bullshit!


WHAT!
Going to that thread to look in depth.

Now this tinfoil hat business is really beginning to annoy me. There is Precisely one play style that benefits from No polarisation between wormhole space and Nullsec.

AND IT IS NOT WORMHOLE PLAYERS.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#652 - 2014-08-05 23:49:54 UTC
Traiori wrote:
Quote:
If what i'm hearing about polarization timers is true, you can forget everything i've said in support of the proposal.


Agreed. Polarisation timers is what lets us kill null blobs and fight around losec holes. It lets us catch people jumping into hisec quickly to propagate their mapper tools. It lets us catch capitals and orcas that are rolling.

Who the heck thought up these changes and why are they breaking one of the few areas in the game that doesn't have completely broken core mechanics?

Stargates don't have polarization timers, why should WH's?
/end troll
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#653 - 2014-08-05 23:52:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
Chitsa Jason wrote:
So I read it most though the thread. In the end I do agree with a change but I do not agree with current implementation. What I think is that CCP and CSM should get more varied feedback in the form of talking to wspace community. It would be great to get game designers and some major wspace movers on same comms and just to see what happens.

My personal opinion is that this change is neither good or bad. It is more of a shakeup of wspace.

TLDR: Wspace talk to the devs, try to channel your opinions through the sources you got avialible.



Chitsa, you know I like you and all, but tbh, since you've been the CSM route you say things like "get game designers and some major wspace movers" and that just makes me think you're missing the big point. I don't think you quite get how some changes get put into this game, or worse maybe you do.

When you pander to the 'major wspace movers' you get bigger groups win. I'll give a few guys from the bigger corps credit for standing up in this thread and not towing their corps line. Self interest of bigger groups doesn't make the game better. We all end up kiting and trying to feel good about it ( I never do ).

The major wspace movers are on here making big noise already. How about I rephrase for you. It would be nice to get game designers and some folks who are more interested in playing the game than maintaining their (put whatever 200+ man corps get out of that here)

This change is dumb (my opinion) and you saying 'game designers and some major wspace movers on the same comms' is even dumber. WTF happened to you???
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#654 - 2014-08-06 00:21:59 UTC
Von Keigai wrote:

This concerns me. It appears that every ship will always appear outside of the wormhole's decloak distance. This will make my form of hunting considerably less viable.

I hunt in wormholes. Usually I am alone, in a stealth bomber. I hunt for any kind of weak ship not in a POS, but among the most usual things I hunt (though not kill) are cloaky scouts. If a cloaky scout can always cloak safely against me, my chance of killing him is zero unless he makes a mistake or I happen to be right on top of him. Currently, there is always the incentive to go for it, on the small but real chance than he is within the wormhole's decloak distance. If he is, then I have the time to lock and can possibly kill. What usually happens is I uncloak, and I go for the lock but fail when he cloaks. This is good because I get a big thrill, and he gets a thrill. We both end up with racing hearts and feeling alive. People who feel alive keep playing.

Another thing I dislike about this, is its effect on me, the hunter. It makes me safer, since currently I too can be killed if I happen to appear too close to a wormhole and someone is there hunting me. Every jump I make into a new system is a bit dangerous. Don't take that way.


Yah was kinda surprised to have the pod out that far. Was really expecting it to be sitting at like 1km. It's kinda hard though if the goal is to create more time on the side of a WH you don't want to be on. Going further out means you have to travel back, but you can cloak, further in means no cloak but instant back.
Gwydion Voleur
Anarchic Exploration
#655 - 2014-08-06 00:25:30 UTC
This is one of the worst changes to wormhole mechanics I can imagine. It severely reduces risk and action in solo/small gang play.
Styledatol
Stellar Forge Industries
#656 - 2014-08-06 00:40:43 UTC
- Mittens hates wspace because it's too hard for the line member of the CFC to do well in.
- Mittens asks his CCP friends to ruin the fun for wspace people, because 'we can't let have wspace have fun while sov-null is dying'.
- CCP experiments with wspace in fun ways, because clearly none of CCP's devs live in wspace.

With that said: "HA HA! SUCKERS!"
Thank bob the only connections I need to roll are 1-2bil mass.
Meytal
Doomheim
#657 - 2014-08-06 00:42:03 UTC
Traiori wrote:
Quote:
If what i'm hearing about polarization timers is true, you can forget everything i've said in support of the proposal.


Agreed. Polarisation timers is what lets us kill null blobs and fight around losec holes. It lets us catch people jumping into hisec quickly to propagate their mapper tools. It lets us catch capitals and orcas that are rolling.

Who the heck thought up these changes and why are they breaking one of the few areas in the game that doesn't have completely broken core mechanics?

You answered the question yourself. This is a way we kill Nullsec entities.
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#658 - 2014-08-06 01:38:21 UTC
I think most of you pilots don't realize that this sort of a change would actually encourage a LOT of pilots who don't normally go into wormholes to check them out.

Great Idea to encourage wormhole exploration.
Terrible idea for wormhole campers.
Ryan Kirth
The Forsakened Few
We Forsakened Few
#659 - 2014-08-06 01:51:02 UTC
Guys stop and think about this. Who virtual controls CCP now. Who are these Devs? If not mistaken they are mostly all nullsec players formerly of corps many of us really didn't care for. This does nothing more then give their croonies an easier way to control their game. This crap all started a year ago. Look at all the nerfs that affect the average player and the buffs that just don't make any sense. Too much of this game is becoming worthless for new / low sp players. Too many nerfs to ships typically found in empire space or WH space while the ships typically found in null get buffed. Just my rant here but it sure looks like a takeover in an effort to discourage your average player. An entirely separate gaming community resides in WH space and nullsec players don't want them there. WH space is too resource rich and easy. The nullsec folk want those resources and until now WH raids have just been too difficult
Winthorp
#660 - 2014-08-06 01:52:24 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
....


Wait a minute... If what i'm hearing about polarization timers is true, you can forget everything i've said in support of the proposal.

Seriously, these two things combined will be some jita riots, call for the firing of a developer, threaten the cancel my account level of bullshit!


Look I have to agree, I support the mass/distance change but combined with the removal or polorization I have to wonder what will be next and with CCP's track record I am going to get on the concerned bandwagon


I think we need to see a devblog pretty damn soon.