These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Gallente and Amarr ship disbalance

First post
Author
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2014-08-02 00:26:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Double post

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

David Koen
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2014-08-05 03:39:16 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Odithia wrote:

By he time you're done shooting the flying drones (assuming you can track them), and the reserve drones, you're often either long dead or well into low armor/structure.

It's pretty much as usefull as using defender or smartbomb against incoming missiles.


Well that's just not true at all. As a rather formidable Ishkur pilot, I can tell you straight up that without it's drones, a drone boat becomes substantially less versatile. There are circumstances where you can ignore the drones, but absent those circumstances, ignoring drones can be suicidal, especially if you're a frigate pilot.

I fought a fifteen-minute duel with Blade VII when I was quite a bit noobier than I am now - his Enyo vs my Ishkur. Yes, it really was a frigate fight that took fifteen minutes. There was a lot of actual piloting taking place. In the end, he won, because he spent much of the fight going after my drones, and I spent much of it recalling and redeploying. I personally learned a lot from that fight, which is why I encourage others to get out there and learn, especially prior to commenting on the forums and saying something silly like "shooting drones is useless".


Your opponent has double repair fit with all 5 tanking skills, not many ships can tank like that. I saw hobgoblins drones there, which is not the best choice against enyo with very high thermal resists. You need to use warriors instead, explosive damage is the best choice against armor tanked opponents, also they move faster, so more difficult to kill them.
The majority of ships will die to drones without an ability to tank them until drones are dead. This guy has no web, so you had a good chance to run away and warp off at the end of the fight.
rothmal
Vengance Inc.
#63 - 2014-08-05 15:22:48 UTC  |  Edited by: rothmal
you remind me of my old CEO.He would only fly Caldari ships and if you were to ask him about what ships were the best he would say Caldari is and if your flying any other race your stupid.About 3 or 4 yours ago i get into i got into covert pvp i found a group of other pilots who were into the same thing.when we started out we were small about 6 to 8 of us but every night we all got a little better at it. we learned what works and what doesn't like making bookmarks around the gate to maneuver better to get easier kills and bringing in recons to protect the fleet and trap hard to kill ships.After three months of doing this every night he moved the corp to cva space and told me i had to stop pvping because you were not aloud too in cva, then he told me I was not a real pvper because i didn't get the final hit on the kill mails so half of them didn't count. then a little after he told me i knew nothing about covert pvp and all you had to do was lunch a bomb and that was it and having a torp launcher on a bomber was also for noobs. just lunch bombs nothing about setting up bookmarks to move around, off grids to warp through bubbles, always staying aligned for quick warp off, setting up bomb waves so you can hit and warp. He thought knew more then a guy who was flying recons and bombers 5-6 hours a night for three months, He thought because he lunched one bomb in his life he knew eveything about covert pvp. when i left his corp he had 20 kill and now 3-4 years later he has 30 kills. you got to play the game to learn you can't fake it to make it in this game cause people will see through that and just laugh at you.rather then say this is better then that try the other ships and you might form a opinion thats not one sided
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#64 - 2014-08-05 15:59:23 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
EDIT: Your entire OP is nul and void. Your solo Tristan loss in Asakai was to an Imperial Navy Slicer. Sucks to be you.

I see what you did there....

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#65 - 2014-08-05 16:19:03 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Odithia wrote:

By he time you're done shooting the flying drones (assuming you can track them), and the reserve drones, you're often either long dead or well into low armor/structure.

It's pretty much as usefull as using defender or smartbomb against incoming missiles.


Well that's just not true at all. As a rather formidable Ishkur pilot, I can tell you straight up that without it's drones, a drone boat becomes substantially less versatile. There are circumstances where you can ignore the drones, but absent those circumstances, ignoring drones can be suicidal, especially if you're a frigate pilot.

I fought a fifteen-minute duel with Blade VII when I was quite a bit noobier than I am now - his Enyo vs my Ishkur. Yes, it really was a frigate fight that took fifteen minutes. There was a lot of actual piloting taking place. In the end, he won, because he spent much of the fight going after my drones, and I spent much of it recalling and redeploying. I personally learned a lot from that fight, which is why I encourage others to get out there and learn, especially prior to commenting on the forums and saying something silly like "shooting drones is useless".

That, sir, was easily the most entertaining frigate fight I've watched in a long, long time. Thanks for sharing, as I think I learned a thing or two as well, and kudos to you for sticking it out until the bitter end.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#66 - 2014-08-07 00:49:29 UTC
Shields are weakest to EM and Armor is weakest to explosive. If Armor was made weakest to thermal instead, then this could put lasers in a slightly better situation.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.

Valkin Mordirc
#67 - 2014-08-07 01:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkin Mordirc
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Shields are weakest to EM and Armor is weakest to explosive. If Armor was made weakest to thermal instead, then this could put lasers in a slightly better situation.




So lazors would have an would have a weapon that does damage in resists holes of both tank types? Also since Armor tanks tend to have high resists in EM, and shield tanks have high resists in Thermal. Wouldn't that just effectively cancel each other?
#DeleteTheWeak
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#68 - 2014-08-07 02:34:49 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Shields are weakest to EM and Armor is weakest to explosive. If Armor was made weakest to thermal instead, then this could put lasers in a slightly better situation.




So lasers would have an would have a weapon that does damage in resists holes of both tank types? Also since Armor tanks tend to have high resists in EM, and shield tanks have high resists in Thermal. Wouldn't that just effectively cancel each other?



No, because lasers do both. If you go radio spectrum you trade EM for Therm and if you go multi you trade Therm for EM. This allows you to focus on one of the two weaknesses. If you suspect the enemy is armor tank than chances are their weakness (with the proposed change) is thermal. So you pick a lens that trades EM for Therm. If you suspect the enemy is shield tank, than chances are their weakness is EM. So you pick the lens that trades off Therm for EM.

If you are not sure you go with a standard lens to provide an even amount of both damage types. As it stands now, shields are weak to EM and Therm while armor is strong against EM and Therm. This makes lasers good vs shields but suck vs armor. With the proposed change, lasers would be equally good vs both.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.

To mare
Advanced Technology
#69 - 2014-08-07 03:44:36 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
I assume the OP doesnt fly Malediction or even a torp/neut geddon. Or a fat chicken with full rack of neuts. Or an Arbitrator. There's some mean ships in Amarr.

funny how not a single ship you mentioned use laser Big smile
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#70 - 2014-08-07 04:39:27 UTC
Odithia wrote:
It's true that pretty much every Gallente ship is strong at PVP whereas some Amarr ships are either bad or extremely specialized.

Basicaly amarr Laser ships are best suited to larger engagement due to their lack of mid.
Their Buffer tank bonus also shine in larger engagement with logi support.
Amarr drone ships are a mid of EWAR and damage versus full gank for gallente, hence Gallente are often prefered.
The fact that TD only affect turret ship doesn't help.

Amarr ships are also kind of one trick pony (= easy to counter) whereas the gallente usual versatile slot layout allow them to be good for a lot of things, be it brawl, kite, shield tank, armor tank, etc.

Lot of Amarr ship still have the useless "laser capacitor consumption" bonus, this doesn't help.

And lets face it, drones are currently a formidable weapon system, especialy Sentry drones.

Top 10 ships on zkillboard : Surprise, the only Amarr ship is a Missile ship !
Crow 10,641
Sabre 7,702
Ishtar 6,732
Stiletto 6,405
Malediction 5,827
Proteus 4,815
Thrasher 4,680
Loki 4,674
Capsule 3,963
Caracal 3,942



Netan MalDoran wrote:
David Koen wrote:

but drones have no counters.


Drones have a counter, it's called SHOOTING THEM! Nothing like offlining your opponets weapons. Also you can use EWAR on drones too.

By he time you're done shooting the flying drones (assuming you can track them), and the reserve drones, you're often either long dead or well into low armor/structure.

It's pretty much as usefull as using defender or smartbomb against incoming missiles.

That capsule though...
Bullet Therapist
FT Cold Corporation
#71 - 2014-08-07 04:57:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
Between all of my characters I can fly every sub-capital ship with near perfect stills. I rotate through activities, changing roles, ships and fits as it suits me. One thing about this game (among many great things about this game) is that every ship and fit has its own strengths and weaknesses. Some ships, hell even whole classes of ships, are outliers and could probably use changes. On the whole though, the balance between the races weapon systems and tanking styles is pretty well balanced. I agree that the cap bonus on some Amarr boats is pretty crappy, though.

Lasers are remarkable for their flexibility. Pulses can go in literally a single cycle from a brawler weapon to a sniper weapon. With clever manipulation of transversal you can have a very wide engagement envelope with a single weapon system. Blasters can do it to some degree with null but they can't do it as well as lasers.

The only negative thing I have to say about the Amarr lineup is that the variety of it can make it difficult to specialize. If you're a new player, you don't know weather to focus on gunnery, missiles, drones, e-war, kiting, or brutal face-tanking.

If you've read any of my posts before you'll see that I don't think battleships are very strong in the current iteration of the game, but the Amarr have one that stands out in the meta. The Armageddon, when fit correctly, is savagely powerful, even against kiting ships. Its one of the only battleship hulls that I would ever consider bringing to the field.

If CCP ever gets around to making brawler ships more viable again, or tries to bring CBCs and battleships back into the metagame I think you'll see a lot more Amarr boats flying around.

Personally,I love the Amarr lineup, just as I love the Gallante lineup. They're both very distinct and offer two completely different flavors of fun.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#72 - 2014-08-07 05:46:19 UTC
To mare wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
I assume the OP doesnt fly Malediction or even a torp/neut geddon. Or a fat chicken with full rack of neuts. Or an Arbitrator. There's some mean ships in Amarr.

funny how not a single ship you mentioned use laser Big smile


We use apocs in our primary fleet.
Valkin Mordirc
#73 - 2014-08-07 12:05:48 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Shields are weakest to EM and Armor is weakest to explosive. If Armor was made weakest to thermal instead, then this could put lasers in a slightly better situation.




So lasers would have an would have a weapon that does damage in resists holes of both tank types? Also since Armor tanks tend to have high resists in EM, and shield tanks have high resists in Thermal. Wouldn't that just effectively cancel each other?



No, because lasers do both. If you go radio spectrum you trade EM for Therm and if you go multi you trade Therm for EM. This allows you to focus on one of the two weaknesses. If you suspect the enemy is armor tank than chances are their weakness (with the proposed change) is thermal. So you pick a lens that trades EM for Therm. If you suspect the enemy is shield tank, than chances are their weakness is EM. So you pick the lens that trades off Therm for EM.

If you are not sure you go with a standard lens to provide an even amount of both damage types. As it stands now, shields are weak to EM and Therm while armor is strong against EM and Therm. This makes lasers good vs shields but suck vs armor. With the proposed change, lasers would be equally good vs both.




AH, okay. I don't use lasers so I am ignorant on the uses. At least with ammo type and such. And yeah I misremember shield resists so you got me there.

But with that change then lasers would be OP? They would have good damage against both tank types?

#DeleteTheWeak
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#74 - 2014-08-07 14:50:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Angeal MacNova
It won't be OP. Lasers already do EM and shield are weak against EM. No change there.

While switching to a radio lens would swap EM for more Therm, there is a drop to over all damage. The drop to overall damage is compensation to the increase to range.

Since Therm is armor's second strongest resistance, this currently further compounds a Therm laser's weakness vs armor tank.

Make Therm armor's weakest resistance and you eliminate the compounding. Lasers will still be better vs shields, the gap will just be made a bit smaller as lasers vs armor get a small buff.

In PvP this is all a bit moot anyway. People will add resistances so their shields or armor have an almost even resistance to all damage types anyway. This swap to make Therm armor's weakest resistance will only mean that players will swap out their Expl resist modules for Therm ones.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.

Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#75 - 2014-08-07 16:00:53 UTC
was a part of squids., figures....

Just Add Water