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Holy hell, the Tornado is a gankers dream.

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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#161 - 2011-11-22 07:33:01 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:

Hey, don't get me wrong - I'm a big fan of the Dessie buff too....

The main problem with Dessie ganking is that it requires a group for the high-EHP targets. (and bigger ships hold up against gate guns longer....)

1 Tempest (or Tornado) = 1 or 2 dead Hulks - 90% of the time, no fuss, no wait, no coordination required.

Don't get me wrong, great things can be done in groups - but arranging a group is non-trivial thing, especially when you are in an out-of-the-way timezone like I am. And lets face it - sometimes I just want to log it, go out there, stick a locator agent on a miner I've killed before, track them down, and instapop them without having to fleet up.

If ganking required a group to succeed, far fewer people would participate - and that would be terrible for the game.

Solo PVP will not be truly dead - as long as we can repeatedly crush Hulks with a single T1 hull. MMMM Solo PVP. Big smile

The main problem with dessie ganking stems from a flaw in the 'sec status penalty' system.
(And YES - obviously none of this applies if you are using -10 alts....)

However, if 5 pilots gank a target, ALL five get a steep 'ship kill' penalty.

CCP should change this - so only the pilot that got the KM gets the the 'large ship kill' penalty. The other gankers are only guilty of 'aggression', and should only be penalized as such. (This would encourage non-outlaw Gankers to operate in dessie groups as well as the -10 outlaws.)

If the gang prefers to preserve its sec-status, it is FAR more efficient for ganking to be a solo or tandem activity, as the cumulative sec-penalties are far less per kill, if a bit more expensive in terms of ISK.

The other thing I would change is eliminate the silly '15 minute' timer system for gaining sec status. Each aggressive act gets a penalty, so it should work the same way while 'repairing' your sec status. Each NPC gives a sec-status bonus, just as each one gives a bounty.



Well actually i am fairly content that dessie would be able to solo kill an hulk in 0.5/.6/.7, not sure tho, i never tried it. i tried other things and i didnt liked it.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2011-11-22 08:23:17 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Guttripper wrote:
I've always been curious about something - has anyone ever been known to go to the Fanfest, found a particular person that ganked or scammed that person, and then broke that person's nose right there and then in real life revenge?

So you're saying that someone who is deathly terrified of losing some imaginary spacepixel items in a videogame, would have the fortitude to put his real life well-being at risk in a violent act against the person who caused him the loss of said imaginary spacepixels? Does that not in the least bit seem absurd to you?

not really. have you heard about "sexual harrasment"? In many cases it doesn't make any physical harm. However it exist. And you can catch or get caught because of it.

The same is with "imaginary subpixels". You only need good lawer to make real revenge..... Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2011-11-22 08:28:50 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Seriously, though. Never ever cargo-expand an Orca. It's bad in every way imaginable.


Why not? Sad
Because there is no need for it — you already have 36k+ m³ cargo hold, 50k m³ ore hold, 40k m³ corp hangar, and a 400k m³ ship hangar. That's plenty.
...

A tanked Orca can have almost 300k EHP and carry nearly 530k m³ of stuff.
A cargo-expanded Orca will easily drop down to 80k EHP and will carry maybe 570k m³ of stuff.
That minuscule increase in carrying capacity is not worth the massive reduction in EHP.

let's say: to refuel 6 planets of PI P1->P3 production i fill whole cargo-expanded orca. Ore bay and ship bay don't matter.....
and in safe-sec (i mean 0.0 droneland) you don't need EHP in orca. You need to try very hard to loose it there Cool

"never say never"

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#164 - 2011-11-22 08:29:04 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
The second you make a RL comparison, the game is over. And the longer you go on with the argument, you end up grasping at nothing.


Why?

Because your real life posessions have value? To whom?

Ranger 1 wrote:
The difference is all of the things you describe are real, and are my property.

The virtual items in EVE are not yours, you do not at any time own them, they are not your property.

You'll find that information cleverly hidden in the publicly available EULA, the one we all agreed to when we chose to play this GAME.


Ah the last resort of the desperate. Hide behind the EULA to justify your actions.

You seem to be pretty touchy about *your* property.

It's almost as if you imply that you accept that those things are yours. Are they? Maybe in your case specifically they are, but how many of the suicide ganker types who "farm tears" are making payments for their car or other possessions via credit card or loan? Look at the contract terms (same as an EULA, but real). Those items are not yours if they are financed by someone else, and there is a whole industry in repossession that will prove that to you if you decide to stop paying.

The core of it has already been hit on once. Time and effort are a big part of all this stuff which the EULA supposedly claims we do not own.
Logging in daily or weekly, depending on your skill in training is a part of real life. You pay for electricity, you pay to keep your computer up to date, and you pay for the service provided by CCP known as Eve. You spend two months training skills and running missions or whatever in order to obtain use of a specific set of code lines in the program labeled "hulk". You've paid $20 or so in sub fees and put effort (casual or not) into obtaining access to that program code.
And when someone comes through who has trained for a few weeks at best, paid no money, and put in a significant less amount of time and blocks your access to that code, you expect the entire human race to react in a manner that *you* deem appropriate.

Apparently you, the perfect human being, are the ultimate judge on what constitutes value to other human beings, and therefore are the final word on data/information/bits/pixels.

Praises to thee, o god, for blessing us with your perfect wisdom.


You're welcome. Blink

I suppose I really should point out that you (and every other player of the game) also agreed that everything you "accrue" while playing EVE has no value what so ever, but if you wish to exalt me as your personal god of common sense and maturity who am I to dissuade you.



You have no idea at all of intrinsic value. For you extrinsic value is the only value associated with anything. But then I certainly hope you dont tell your family that because emotions and attachments to nonmaterial things even if they are unreal like memories would be as you put it nothing and have no value to you either. Nor should they care about your feelings or thoughts towards them as anything "real" or valuable either based on your outlook.

Intrinsic value based on emotional attachments are what drive ALL human beings. You are happy and receive joy and gratification in destroying these attachments and when someone, according to you, has what you put it an unhealthy attachment to and dislikes seeing said attached destroyed and reacts overtly and again, in your opinion, with too much gusto, emphasis or emotion you call that being a bad sport and are the final judge regarding conduct.

LMFAO You are hilarious at best.

And the knife does cut both ways. The reality that tears as you call them can be illicited from anyone when they react in a way favorable to you.


You need to learn the difference and the REALITY of intrinsic and extrinsic values in life and how emotional attachment occurs in human beings when they place time and effort into a thing, irregardless of whether that thing is deemed real by you or anyone else.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2011-11-22 08:46:22 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
dust put a damage control 2 and some tank mods on your hulks. more than likely you will survive.

Though this definitely works, they will never do so; tanking barges means they will make less ISK/hour.

Carebear greed is the one constant that can always be counted on.


That's questionable. Some quick EFT testing shows you can get about 22k EHP on a hulk with a damage control, invulnerability field x2 and shield rigs. Compared to 11k EHP with just an invulnerability field and more +mining yield mods.
So the tanked hulk will survive one volley from the Tornado fit in the OP, but will still die if
-it gets to fire two volleys
-if there's two Tornados

Personally I think Hulks should have a stronger maximum tank, at the cost of more mining yield. Though I suppose you could argue just flying a cheap Covetor is the best gank defence of all.
TuonelanOrja
Doomheim
#166 - 2011-11-22 08:59:11 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
dust put a damage control 2 and some tank mods on your hulks. more than likely you will survive.

Though this definitely works, they will never do so; tanking barges means they will make less ISK/hour.

Carebear greed is the one constant that can always be counted on.


That's questionable. Some quick EFT testing shows you can get about 22k EHP on a hulk with a damage control, invulnerability field x2 and shield rigs. Compared to 11k EHP with just an invulnerability field and more +mining yield mods.
So the tanked hulk will survive one volley from the Tornado fit in the OP, but will still die if
-it gets to fire two volleys
-if there's two Tornados

Personally I think Hulks should have a stronger maximum tank, at the cost of more mining yield. Though I suppose you could argue just flying a cheap Covetor is the best gank defence of all.


How about some new mining lazors with better yield? You could tank it or get better yield, this would make mining bit more profitable me thinks..

Not a veteran, just bitter..
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#167 - 2011-11-22 09:02:01 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Guttripper wrote:
I've always been curious about something - has anyone ever been known to go to the Fanfest, found a particular person that ganked or scammed that person, and then broke that person's nose right there and then in real life revenge?

So you're saying that someone who is deathly terrified of losing some imaginary spacepixel items in a videogame, would have the fortitude to put his real life well-being at risk in a violent act against the person who caused him the loss of said imaginary spacepixels? Does that not in the least bit seem absurd to you?

not really. have you heard about "sexual harrasment"? In many cases it doesn't make any physical harm. However it exist. And you can catch or get caught because of it.

The same is with "imaginary subpixels". You only need good lawer to make real revenge..... Cool

Can you cite me a case in which the ruling was in favor of someone getting restitution for loss/destruction of virtual goods in a game in which the EULA clearly stated that all virtual goods are the sole property of their creators and hold no cash value?

Takseen wrote:
That's questionable. Some quick EFT testing shows you can get about 22k EHP on a hulk with a damage control, invulnerability field x2 and shield rigs. Compared to 11k EHP with just an invulnerability field and more +mining yield mods.
So the tanked hulk will survive one volley from the Tornado fit in the OP, but will still die if
-it gets to fire two volleys
-if there's two Tornados

Personally I think Hulks should have a stronger maximum tank, at the cost of more mining yield. Though I suppose you could argue just flying a cheap Covetor is the best gank defence of all.

While I don't disagree that barges should have higher tank ceilings (at the expense of mining capacity, of course), I'd like to remind you that the prices of ships and modules are set by the players. The Hulk, in itself, shouldn't be boosted because it costs 200 million ISK. Just because an item is expensive, doesn't mean that it should be boosted.

A Machariel costs about four times as much as a Hulk. Would I be justified in requesting that the Machariel's damage output be boosted to such a point that it can destroy four Hulks at the same time? Using that same logic, and knowing that a Hulk costs about four times as much as a Tornado, I can ask: is it justifiable in requesting that the Hulk be boosted to such a point that it can tank four Tornadoes at the same time?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2011-11-22 09:43:29 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Takseen wrote:
That's questionable. Some quick EFT testing shows you can get about 22k EHP on a hulk with a damage control, invulnerability field x2 and shield rigs. Compared to 11k EHP with just an invulnerability field and more +mining yield mods.
So the tanked hulk will survive one volley from the Tornado fit in the OP, but will still die if
-it gets to fire two volleys
-if there's two Tornados

Personally I think Hulks should have a stronger maximum tank, at the cost of more mining yield. Though I suppose you could argue just flying a cheap Covetor is the best gank defence of all.

While I don't disagree that barges should have higher tank ceilings (at the expense of mining capacity, of course) ...

you (and other wannabees) are ignoring one thing: mining barge is SPECIALIZED ship. Just in case you don't know what it means: take a look to SB, new T3 BCs, new supercarriers.

In short words: by increasing tank and decreasing cargohold you are killing role of mining barge at all. it mines ore, and ore takes space. Using jettison cans is bad idea because of can flippers. Using Orcas need fleet ops. It's ok but suicide gankers don't need fleet ops. They can work solo while miners don't. And this is not a good balance.

Fitting tank to hulk It's like fitting tank to SBs. Or fitting tank to new T3 BCs. Yes, you can do it but you will not wait good return from such fitting.

And here we have problem: ship specialized to do long-term static tasks has no protection at all from alpha blow. Fitting tank to this ship moves it outside its purposed role.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#169 - 2011-11-22 09:48:31 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Takseen wrote:
That's questionable. Some quick EFT testing shows you can get about 22k EHP on a hulk with a damage control, invulnerability field x2 and shield rigs. Compared to 11k EHP with just an invulnerability field and more +mining yield mods.
So the tanked hulk will survive one volley from the Tornado fit in the OP, but will still die if
-it gets to fire two volleys
-if there's two Tornados

Personally I think Hulks should have a stronger maximum tank, at the cost of more mining yield. Though I suppose you could argue just flying a cheap Covetor is the best gank defence of all.

While I don't disagree that barges should have higher tank ceilings (at the expense of mining capacity, of course) ...

you (and other wannabees) are ignoring one thing: mining barge is SPECIALIZED ship. Just in case you don't know what it means: take a look to SB, new T3 BCs, new supercarriers.

In short words: by increasing tank and decreasing cargohold you are killing role of mining barge at all. it mines ore, and ore takes space. Using jettison cans is bad idea because of can flippers. Using Orcas need fleet ops. It's ok but suicide gankers don't need fleet ops. They can work solo while miners don't. And this is not a good balance.

Fitting tank to hulk It's like fitting tank to SBs. Or fitting tank to new T3 BCs. Yes, you can do it but you will not wait good return from such fitting.

And here we have problem: ship specialized to do long-term static tasks has no protection at all from alpha blow. Fitting tank to this ship moves it outside its purposed role.



Maybe read the description of the Hulk sometime?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#170 - 2011-11-22 09:52:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
I was going to address that issue in my reply, but seeing as how you lost all of your credibility in the first few words of your first sentence, I'm not going to bother. Why waste my time anyway? Talking to someone as ignorant as you means words will go into one ear, and out the other.

Edit: directed at post #168

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Lexmana
#171 - 2011-11-22 09:57:24 UTC
March rabbit wrote:

you (and other wannabees) are ignoring one thing: mining barge is SPECIALIZED ship. Just in case you don't know what it means: take a look to SB, new T3 BCs, new supercarriers.

In short words: by increasing tank and decreasing cargohold you are killing role of mining barge at all. it mines ore, and ore takes space. Using jettison cans is bad idea because of can flippers. Using Orcas need fleet ops. It's ok but suicide gankers don't need fleet ops. They can work solo while miners don't. And this is not a good balance.

Fitting tank to hulk It's like fitting tank to SBs. Or fitting tank to new T3 BCs. Yes, you can do it but you will not wait good return from such fitting.

And here we have problem: ship specialized to do long-term static tasks has no protection at all from alpha blow. Fitting tank to this ship moves it outside its purposed role.


So you are basically saying that since the Hulk is a SPECIALIZED mining ship it should die to anything that shoots at it. Ok.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2011-11-22 10:10:20 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I was going to address that issue in my reply, but seeing as how you lost all of your credibility in the first few words of your first sentence, I'm not going to bother. Why waste my time anyway? Talking to someone as ignorant as you means words will go into one ear, and out the other.

Edit: directed at post #168

it's not that credibility in eyes of suicide gankers and other wannabees is important for me.... Only thing i want is to add some reasonable content to threads "we don't mine so we don't care about anything except our KBs and tears of other people".

And if "first words of your first sentence" is about wannabees.... Lol then sorry. suicide gankers and other "pvp" high-sec stuff isn't what i can name "pvp-ers"

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Sader Rykane
Midnight Sentinels
#173 - 2011-11-22 10:46:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Seriously, though. Never ever cargo-expand an Orca. It's bad in every way imaginable.


Why not? Sad
Because there is no need for it — you already have 36k+ m³ cargo hold, 50k m³ ore hold, 40k m³ corp hangar, and a 400k m³ ship hangar. That's plenty. Screw around with cargo containers, and you can boost that a fair bit. Moreover, of all those cargo holds, the only one that drops stuff if you get blown up is the normal cargo hold, which means that the more you stuff into it, the more valuable you become as a target — it should be the last place you put things. Expanding on that hold to put even more stuff into it only does one thing: it makes you an even more valuable target.


…ok, that's not true. It actually does two things: it also weakens your armour and/or hull and/or competes with shield rigs, and thus absolutely guts your EHP. So not only does it increase your loot-worthiness (ehm… yes), it also makes you much easier to kill, which drastically increases your value as a target. You've turned from being beefy as hell and with no valuable drops into weak as hell with tons of goodies spilling out.

A tanked Orca can have almost 300k EHP and carry nearly 530k m³ of stuff.
A cargo-expanded Orca will easily drop down to 80k EHP and will carry maybe 570k m³ of stuff.
That minuscule increase in carrying capacity is not worth the massive reduction in EHP.



Umm...

I've had an orca in and out of wormhole space since w-space came out and have never come close to losing it.

Basically, cargo expander will not get our orca killed. Mistakes will.

This is not to say that buffering isn't a bad idea, but a blanket statement of "Don't fit Cargo Expanders" is pretty dumb. There are numerous times where I just need more space and carry both Cargo and Buffer lows for this purpose to alternate when appropriate.

Now the one thing I never do however, is rig my orca. Because I tend to repackage it and move it around with a freighter quite a bit.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#174 - 2011-11-22 10:52:11 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

The difference is all of the things you describe are real, and are my property.

The virtual items in EVE are not yours, you do not at any time own them, they are not your property.

You'll find that information cleverly hidden in the publicly available EULA, the one we all agreed to when we chose to play this GAME.


Idea of ownership .. how cute.


Big smile

I take it you disagree. Excellent, give me your computer.


sure thing... if you dont mind waiting few bilions years.


Pouting is not going to help you here.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Botleten
Perkone
Caldari State
#175 - 2011-11-22 11:02:19 UTC
New gank ship + Anom buff = Rivers of hisec tears
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#176 - 2011-11-22 11:05:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Of course ganking is PVP. We are killing players. Not my problem if they choose to fly a Hulk instead of a Tempest. The fact that they cannot shoot back simply does not factor into my PVPness. Chivalry is for suckers.
But Whateva.

I just realized something, I'd been looking at the economics of Tempest vs Tornado all wrong. The Tornado is even more WIN than I thought at first.

Ganking in the Tornado is essentially like getting your old 'Tempest' insurance payout UP FRONT, immediately, without the extra hassle.
Lol
Rather than being an economic 'wash', the Tornado actually makes ganking far MORE accessible to poorer players, due to much cheaper front-end costs. In terms of liquidity....paying 45 M now, is FAR easier on the wallet than paying 110M up front and getting 70M back at a later date. After all, you never know if that gank is going to happen right away, and you are tying up all that insurance money in the mean time.

It reduced that psychological barrier to buying that first 'expensive' gank boat. Much easier for a player of modest means to pony up for the 40-45M BC, rather than 90M+ and a 22M insurance premium for the Tempest or the Apoc.

Result: More people give it a go, and more people stick with it. And more Hulks die. Eve wins. And the gankers of Eve win big.

In the same vein:
Less training involved. No need to sink 50+ days of BS + weeks of Torp training to get the most out of a 'Pest. All you need is Battlecruisers and Large Arties, (and really, with the Tornado, BC skill only gives you that second volley faster, doesn't affect alpha at all, so you don't have to wait for BC V to finish to start instapopping those miners.)

Edit: And really, to get the MOST out of the 'Pest, you really needed to use the extra highs for torpedoes. That always reduced your engagement envelope to Torp range, which is a bit 'cramped' for 1400MM arty and its lousy tracking. Now, you can warp in comfortably at 30km, reduce tracking issues to almost nothing and blast away without fear of shanking your shot due to a botched warp-in. Then lock another target while your guns are reloading and 13 seconds later, volley that one too.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#177 - 2011-11-22 11:14:53 UTC
You know, one thing I wonder, but haven't checked, is what the production costs are for T2 1400mm guns. If it's possible, with a concentrated effort, to bring their price down under two million ISK, then it might be worth looking into. Probably just a pipe dream, I know, but I can only imagine...

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#178 - 2011-11-22 11:48:03 UTC
Paragon Renegade wrote:
"We want to gave MOAR PVP! LET US ATTACK DEFENSELESS PEOPLE WITH NO REPERCUSSIONS! :D Screw fighting people in low & null in fights that aren't totally one-sided! Don't make me work!"

lol

You guys are a joke


People engaging in one sided fights are a joke or people who are so silly they provide one sided fights are a joke?

Ferox #1
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#179 - 2011-11-22 13:08:45 UTC
Sader Rykane wrote:


Umm...

I've had an orca in and out of wormhole space since w-space came out and have never come close to losing it.

Basically, cargo expander will not get our orca killed. Mistakes will.

This is not to say that buffering isn't a bad idea, but a blanket statement of "Don't fit Cargo Expanders" is pretty dumb. There are numerous times where I just need more space and carry both Cargo and Buffer lows for this purpose to alternate when appropriate.

Now the one thing I never do however, is rig my orca. Because I tend to repackage it and move it around with a freighter quite a bit.


Well what you missed is the simple trade-off ... its just mathematically not worth it.. .

Losing nearly 3/4 of tank to gain 1/20 of cargo
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#180 - 2011-11-22 13:12:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Kietay Ayari wrote:
Paragon Renegade wrote:
"We want to gave MOAR PVP! LET US ATTACK DEFENSELESS PEOPLE WITH NO REPERCUSSIONS! :D Screw fighting people in low & null in fights that aren't totally one-sided! Don't make me work!"

lol

You guys are a joke


People engaging in one sided fights are a joke or people who are so silly they provide one sided fights are a joke?


Well considering one-sided...

what if... juicy target, weeks of preparation to archive completely one sided fight.. Then its not really "one sided", is it.
There are things which the prey if its successful and no traitors in act will never get.

Altho killing for lolz, well i consider it lame and stupid. Just my opinion.

Holy ****... is this thread about an Tornado ???