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[Marauders] Still under used in PVP
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Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-07-30 09:33:23 UTC
Dear CCP.

Personally i love the looks of the Marauders, and the concept behind them, i would love to be able to use them more often in PVP however they just are not good enough currently to justify their considerable cost.

For this reason i would like to see a general change across all of the Marauders where they loose 1 high slot and gain 1 low slot.

I believe that the marauders have to sacrifice too much of their tanking capabilities to fit themselves to operate within a fleet format.
Losing 1 high slot makes them a little worse at solo pvp (utility loss i.e smartbombs)
However being able to fit one more low slot mod makes up for most of this loss.

With this change however i see these ships being an excellent choice to spend extra isk on for big fleet engagments.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2014-07-30 09:37:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ncc 1709
Don't you Dear mess with my Golem. its perfectly fine as it is
and none ever try to solo a marauda, its usually small gangs vs a marauda
my last marauda loss was to a 15 man ishtar gang, which nuet it dry and the cap booster couldn't keep up

if anything, bastion modual needs a resistance to nueting, something to stop them dying to the first set of nuets
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-07-30 09:46:40 UTC
Ncc 1709 wrote:
Don't you Dear mess with my Golem. its perfectly fine as it is
and none ever try to solo a marauda, its usually small gangs vs a marauda
my last marauda loss was to a 15 man gang, which nuet it dry and the cap booster couldn't keep up

if anything, bastion modual needs a resistance to nueting, something to stop them dying to the first set of nuets


As it is Marauders can bit fit to be very resistant to neuts, i dont think that they should get a buff on the bastion module.

the Bastion module is perfect the way it is im trying to make the marauders a viable option when you are not using bastion and instead are a member of a fleet. Currently these are the only ships in the game focused around "solo" fighting.
I think it wrong for them to be focused so clearly on that.
They should have the option (as does every other ship in the game) to be just as effective in a fleet format.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2014-07-30 09:54:35 UTC
...Just how much tank do you want from these things?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-07-30 09:57:32 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
Dear CCP.

Personally i love the looks of the Marauders, and the concept behind them, i would love to be able to use them more often in PVP however they just are not good enough currently to justify their considerable cost.

For this reason i would like to see a general change across all of the Marauders where they loose 1 high slot and gain 1 low slot.

I believe that the marauders have to sacrifice too much of their tanking capabilities to fit themselves to operate within a fleet format.
Losing 1 high slot makes them a little worse at solo pvp (utility loss i.e smartbombs)
However being able to fit one more low slot mod makes up for most of this loss.

With this change however i see these ships being an excellent choice to spend extra isk on for big fleet engagments.



What they need is a script on bastion mode. THat allows to swtich from 100% increase in tank to a 100% icnrease in damage ( with reduced trackign if you will.

Would make them the perfec choice to kill high sec ECM rich POS (beleive or not its a very very common scenario that has no good answers because you cannot bring dreads in high sec and these POS can keep several battleships unable to lock).

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-07-30 09:59:15 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
...Just how much tank do you want from these things?


well...

To take the Kronos as an example in a armour buffer fit dual plate, i think it should just about match the same as a Vindicator when single plated (assuming all rigs are tri-marks)
The Paladin will be just over this.

The shield tankers are not really built for buffer but they could...

The Golem will be able to go with a CPU mod or 4th BCU while still having a DCU

The Vargur has many other options
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2014-07-30 10:04:58 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
...Just how much tank do you want from these things?


well...

To take the Kronos as an example in a armour buffer fit dual plate, i think it should just about match the same as a Vindicator when single plated (assuming all rigs are tri-marks)
The Paladin will be just over this.

The shield tankers are not really built for buffer but they could...

The Golem will be able to go with a CPU mod or 4th BCU while still having a DCU

The Vargur has many other options



Ten seconds in EFT gave me a paladin that could tank upwards of 4k DPS, cold, without links, with a lowslot to spare. Does it really need another one?

Marauders are active tankers, hence the 100% bonus to reppers from the bastion module.
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2014-07-30 10:05:43 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


What they need is a script on bastion mode. THat allows to swtich from 100% increase in tank to a 100% icnrease in damage ( with reduced tracking if you will.

Would make them the perfec choice to kill high sec ECM rich POS (beleive or not its a very very common scenario that has no good answers because you cannot bring dreads in high sec and these POS can keep several battleships unable to lock).


Bastion with scripts is just not right they dont need a buff to damage permanently they need a "balance" to being in bastion and being out of it. The penalties for using bastion are high (0 mobility) therefore it should not be something to rely on.

While bastion is good I do think its only real purpose is to create a brick wall and not be the option to provide an unreal amount of damage.

If people have poses with just jammers on you dont need a tank so you can just use bastion and fit the rest for DPS as it is, so no real difference.
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2014-07-30 10:11:24 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Vulfen wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
...Just how much tank do you want from these things?


well...

To take the Kronos as an example in a armour buffer fit dual plate, i think it should just about match the same as a Vindicator when single plated (assuming all rigs are tri-marks)
The Paladin will be just over this.

The shield tankers are not really built for buffer but they could...

The Golem will be able to go with a CPU mod or 4th BCU while still having a DCU

The Vargur has many other options



Ten seconds in EFT gave me a paladin that could tank upwards of 4k DPS, cold, without links, with a lowslot to spare. Does it really need another one?

Marauders are active tankers, hence the 100% bonus to reppers from the bastion module.


They are active tankers while in bastion. while outside of bastion they are like any other ship.
I will admit that if done right the Kronos can match a 10K dps tank with links boosters. However this is pricey.
I think my current Kronos is 4.3billion for a 9k dps Bastion tank - not that i can take it out much it just screams "Blob Me"
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#10 - 2014-07-30 10:20:39 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:



Ten seconds in EFT gave me a paladin that could tank upwards of 4k DPS, cold, without links, with a lowslot to spare. Does it really need another one?

Marauders are active tankers, hence the 100% bonus to reppers from the bastion module.

And what DPS did this Paladin do at what range & tracking......
Great, it could tank while sitting immobile. (I assume that was Omni tank or you were cheating).
Can it sustain those reps under neuts or was this a cap boosted scenario already if it wants to be able to shoot it's guns at all.
How useful is that really in reality rather than quoting a single EFT number without actually giving any context.

And how much faction gear was on this fit.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-07-30 10:30:06 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


What they need is a script on bastion mode. THat allows to swtich from 100% increase in tank to a 100% icnrease in damage ( with reduced tracking if you will.

Would make them the perfec choice to kill high sec ECM rich POS (beleive or not its a very very common scenario that has no good answers because you cannot bring dreads in high sec and these POS can keep several battleships unable to lock).


Bastion with scripts is just not right they dont need a buff to damage permanently they need a "balance" to being in bastion and being out of it. The penalties for using bastion are high (0 mobility) therefore it should not be something to rely on.

While bastion is good I do think its only real purpose is to create a brick wall and not be the option to provide an unreal amount of damage.

If people have poses with just jammers on you dont need a tank so you can just use bastion and fit the rest for DPS as it is, so no real difference.



Without more damage there is no reason to bring a marauder. NONE. Defense even on small gangs is made by logistic ships. So you are better bringing a normal battleship than a marauder and if you want to go balls deep a Pirate battleship is several times more powerful than a marauder. There is not a single thing you could do to a marauder that would make people select it to a small fleet ( I say small fleet because large fleets obviously marauder is trash since self repair is irrelevant there and solo is not a realistic main role for battleships) over a bhaalgon or vindicator, unless you make it able to dish more dps than those.

No amount of self defense capability will change that. There is a reason why whenever someone is dumb enough to bring a marauder to fight us we rejoice... because we got a free expensive kill that is not more threatening than a 1 battleship.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2014-07-30 10:31:34 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:



Ten seconds in EFT gave me a paladin that could tank upwards of 4k DPS, cold, without links, with a lowslot to spare. Does it really need another one?

Marauders are active tankers, hence the 100% bonus to reppers from the bastion module.

And what DPS did this Paladin do at what range & tracking......
Great, it could tank while sitting immobile. (I assume that was Omni tank or you were cheating).
Can it sustain those reps under neuts or was this a cap boosted scenario already if it wants to be able to shoot it's guns at all.
How useful is that really in reality rather than quoting a single EFT number without actually giving any context.

And how much faction gear was on this fit.


Here's what your looking at spending for a good marauder that does a good tank and can apply it's dps under fire

Expensive

[Kronos, Chrome Rims]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Reactive Armor Hardener
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II
Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Centus B-Type Large Armor Repairer

Large Micro Jump Drive
True Sansha Warp Scrambler
Imperial Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800
Imperial Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Imperial Navy Medium EMP Smartbomb
Bastion Module I

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II

Valkyrie II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5
Warrior II x5
Navy Cap Booster 800 x44
Mobile Depot x2

Generally if im not under much fire i will refit one of the reps for an extra DPS mod. I also carry a set of C-Type hardeners & MWD in the cargo.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2014-07-30 10:31:41 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:



Ten seconds in EFT gave me a paladin that could tank upwards of 4k DPS, cold, without links, with a lowslot to spare. Does it really need another one?

Marauders are active tankers, hence the 100% bonus to reppers from the bastion module.

And what DPS did this Paladin do at what range & tracking......
Great, it could tank while sitting immobile. (I assume that was Omni tank or you were cheating).
Can it sustain those reps under neuts or was this a cap boosted scenario already if it wants to be able to shoot it's guns at all.
How useful is that really in reality rather than quoting a single EFT number without actually giving any context.

And how much faction gear was on this fit.



Faction gear is nto a problem. On a ship on the cost level of a marauder its is entirely normal to field at least 600M on its fittings. at LEAST. Same thing with pirate battleships.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
eliminator2
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-07-30 10:32:40 UTC
the maruarders and bastion is perfect as they are they dont need any changes


i dont use them in pvp much but i do abit only reason you dont see them is because most people blob/hotdrop them
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-07-30 10:42:18 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Without more damage there is no reason to bring a marauder. NONE. Defense even on small gangs is made by logistic ships. So you are better bringing a normal battleship than a marauder and if you want to go balls deep a Pirate battleship is several times more powerful than a marauder. There is not a single thing you could do to a marauder that would make people select it to a small fleet ( I say small fleet because large fleets obviously marauder is trash since self repair is irrelevant there and solo is not a realistic main role for battleships) over a bhaalgon or vindicator, unless you make it able to dish more dps than those.

No amount of self defense capability will change that. There is a reason why whenever someone is dumb enough to bring a marauder to fight us we rejoice... because we got a free expensive kill that is not more threatening than a 1 battleship.


The damage projection is why you would use it in a larger fleet.
The marauders have exceptional projection of damage.

Currently it is possible to nearly match the DPS of a Kronos against Vindicator however the Kronos then lacks buffer, although in my build gains 2 neuts and a Large SB.

The Vindicator can hit upto around 30km and comes with 90% webs
The Kronos can max out at 60km but does not have any webs. (add correct boosters and 66km) Not bastion - 2 tracking comps (50km with 1 tracking comp)

You can do this at a similar cost to a Vindicator aswell.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-07-30 11:02:10 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Without more damage there is no reason to bring a marauder. NONE. Defense even on small gangs is made by logistic ships. So you are better bringing a normal battleship than a marauder and if you want to go balls deep a Pirate battleship is several times more powerful than a marauder. There is not a single thing you could do to a marauder that would make people select it to a small fleet ( I say small fleet because large fleets obviously marauder is trash since self repair is irrelevant there and solo is not a realistic main role for battleships) over a bhaalgon or vindicator, unless you make it able to dish more dps than those.

No amount of self defense capability will change that. There is a reason why whenever someone is dumb enough to bring a marauder to fight us we rejoice... because we got a free expensive kill that is not more threatening than a 1 battleship.


The damage projection is why you would use it in a larger fleet.
The marauders have exceptional projection of damage.

Currently it is possible to nearly match the DPS of a Kronos against Vindicator however the Kronos then lacks buffer, although in my build gains 2 neuts and a Large SB.

The Vindicator can hit upto around 30km and comes with 90% webs
The Kronos can max out at 60km but does not have any webs. (add correct boosters and 66km) Not bastion - 2 tracking comps (50km with 1 tracking comp)

You can do this at a similar cost to a Vindicator aswell.



Their damage projection is NOT exceptional. Its pathetically better at most. They get 1 free track computer. The apoc got 2 and a half free target computers on its bonuses just for starters. The lack of mobility denies the little bit extra range completely. If your enemy can predict and avoid you or out-track you because you cannot move, you are irrelevant just because you have a SMALL range bonus.

If you use long range guns the lack of mobility is EVEN worse, enemy will warp within 20 km and you will miss every shot. If you use short range guns, then you are still less relevant then a typhoon, navy apoc etc jsut because they can MOVE while still fielding long range.

No one sane would use marauders in a large fleet. They are not better than cheaper ships. On large fleets navy battleships are far more efficient.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#17 - 2014-07-30 11:26:36 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
Dear CCP.

Personally i love the looks of the Marauders, and the concept behind them, i would love to be able to use them more often in PVP however they just are not good enough currently to justify their considerable cost.

For this reason i would like to see a general change across all of the Marauders where they loose 1 high slot and gain 1 low slot.

I believe that the marauders have to sacrifice too much of their tanking capabilities to fit themselves to operate within a fleet format.
Losing 1 high slot makes them a little worse at solo pvp (utility loss i.e smartbombs)
However being able to fit one more low slot mod makes up for most of this loss.

With this change however i see these ships being an excellent choice to spend extra isk on for big fleet engagments.

Marauders are designed as solo ships, hence their considerable active tanking bonuses and extensive utility slots.

The issue you have is not that they are unsuitable for PvP, but that they are unsitable for use in pvp fleets. They work quite well in small gangs and some solo pvp work.

So, realistically, why would a ship that is designed as a 'lone wolf', (which it does very well,) need to be rebalanced so that it can work better in fleets?

Friends
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2014-07-30 11:35:44 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Vulfen wrote:
Dear CCP.

Personally i love the looks of the Marauders, and the concept behind them, i would love to be able to use them more often in PVP however they just are not good enough currently to justify their considerable cost.

For this reason i would like to see a general change across all of the Marauders where they loose 1 high slot and gain 1 low slot.

I believe that the marauders have to sacrifice too much of their tanking capabilities to fit themselves to operate within a fleet format.
Losing 1 high slot makes them a little worse at solo pvp (utility loss i.e smartbombs)
However being able to fit one more low slot mod makes up for most of this loss.

With this change however i see these ships being an excellent choice to spend extra isk on for big fleet engagments.

Marauders are designed as solo ships, hence their considerable active tanking bonuses and extensive utility slots.

The issue you have is not that they are unsuitable for PvP, but that they are unsitable for use in pvp fleets. They work quite well in small gangs and some solo pvp work.

So, realistically, why would a ship that is designed as a 'lone wolf', (which it does very well,) need to be rebalanced so that it can work better in fleets?



They still dont work WELL in small fleets, Because 99% of time is just better to bring a pirate battleship. They coudl ahve something different just to make them a niche where they are the correct ship to bring. That is why I said, make them be the best ship to siege a POCO or pos in high sec (by addign a cript that reduces massively tracking but gains damage) and you get a much more widespread osage of them in pvp. BEcause they will be brought for those sieges and they will have to fight when denfense forces arrive.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#19 - 2014-07-30 12:05:01 UTC
Their prohibitive cost is the major limiting factor for fleet use.

It has very little to do with their abilities.

Think about it this way. Given how much a Marauder costs, I could just get a Dreadnaught instead. No one in their right mind would choose any of the Marauders over a Dreadnaught (except for the newly accidentally nerfed Phoenix, that is.), which means that Marauders are really not going to be used in fleet fights in low, null, and wormhole space.

What they are is the replacement for the capital ships that you can't get in highsec.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lothras Andastar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-07-30 12:28:57 UTC
You do realise they were given gimped sensor strength SPECIFICALLY so they would not be used in PVP, right?

Because the Legacy Code has too much Psssssssssssssssh, nothing will ever get fixed until CCP stop wasting money on failed sparkle MMOs and instead rewrite the entire backend of EvE from scratch.
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