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L4 Runner : Marauder ?
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Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-07-29 17:07:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Triakis Cadelanne
Hello,

As you'll have easily guessed, I'm thinking about buying a Marauder to get a decent PvE income when mates aren't around. My skills allow me to choose between Kronos and Vargur.

I've built some setup, and checked how damage was applied on different targets with short and long range guns. The Kronos blaster fit is here loaded with Null, so it can easily pull better tracking and damages if needed. Other fits are loaded with short range faction ammo. Sniper fits are currently loaded with tracking scripts, short range setups with optimal range scripts. There are 4 faction damage mods for each fit. Here are the curves :

Targeting an orbiting cruiser
Targeting an orbiting battleship

Before choosing between Kronos or Vargur, I can't choose between a close or long range setup. Since the max orbiting distance of NPC ship in empire space is 50km, close range setup will beat sniping fit on any orbiting ship. However, it will take ages to kill rats if they spawn further than 70km. On the other hand, it will take at least the same amount of time to kill a close orbiting cruiser with Hammerheads. I guess I have to switch between those setups, depending on the mission.

According to the graph, for the same kind of setup the Kronos has a slightly better applied DPS than the Vargur. The main issue with the Kronos is that I'm stuck with Kin / Therm damages. It's a nice pattern since every pirate NPC faction is weak to at least one of this damage type. However, the Vargur is able to focus on the very weak point of everyone of them.

Could someone help me to choose between those ships ?

Regards,
TC
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#2 - 2014-07-29 17:27:13 UTC
there is no question mark in your post.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-07-29 17:30:07 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
there is no question mark in your post.


I was actually editing it, since I pressed the 'submit' button instead of preview.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#4 - 2014-07-29 17:36:17 UTC
if you intend to run missions in minmatar or amarr space, take the vargur, else kronos. i'm not a fan of artillery and rails on marauders, because there are barely any missions where you cannot profit from the higher dps of close range weapons by careful maneuvering.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-07-29 17:50:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Triakis Cadelanne
Daniel Plain wrote:
if you intend to run missions in minmatar or amarr space



I run mission wherever my trades lead me, so I have no static mission hub.
NIFTYGetAtMe
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-07-29 18:44:54 UTC  |  Edited by: NIFTYGetAtMe
In a perfect world, you would just get a Golem and never worry about PvE again. Having to choose between the two, I would suggest the Vargur over the Kronos. I find the Kronos to be lacking especially in PvE because rails just can't do damage, and blasters with Bastion still have disappointing range and poor tracking. Artillery Vargurs were very popular for PvE because the insane alpha, but I don't know if that's still viable.

Keep in mind that the over-hyped MJD in PvE trend isn't necessary for every single PvE situation. Depending on the mission, you can use that midslot for something useful and still get away with a close range fit, but for other missions or for using artillery/rails, an MJD would be smart.
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-07-29 19:01:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Triakis Cadelanne
NIFTYGetAtMe wrote:
In a perfect world, you would just get a Golem and never worry about PvE again. Having to choose between the two, I would suggest the Vargur over the Kronos. I find the Kronos to be lacking especially in PvE because rails just can't do damage, and blasters with Bastion still have disappointing range and poor tracking. Artillery Vargurs were very popular for PvE because the insane alpha, but I don't know if that's still viable.

Keep in mind that the over-hyped MJD in PvE trend isn't necessary for every single PvE situation. Depending on the mission, you can use that midslot for something useful and still get away with a close range fit, but for other missions or for using artillery/rails, an MJD would be smart.


The main problem with the Golem is the terrible Cruise Missile's damage application. I wanted to skill it but then when I saw how much DPS you're losing on a target painted cruiser, I thought it wasn't worth the skilling time.
However, I'm as disapointed as you when I see rails damage. About blaster's tracking I think I'll be fine. It's superior to my Proteus rails' tracking, and this Proteus has run a lot of missions without any tracking issue.

I was actually quite surprised to see that blasters may have almost the same range that AC. But I agree to say that it's not enough. Maybe there are a few MJD trick to get in close, but then I don't want to run 40km without prop to reach the gate.
NIFTYGetAtMe
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-07-29 19:16:29 UTC  |  Edited by: NIFTYGetAtMe
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:
NIFTYGetAtMe wrote:
In a perfect world, you would just get a Golem and never worry about PvE again. Having to choose between the two, I would suggest the Vargur over the Kronos. I find the Kronos to be lacking especially in PvE because rails just can't do damage, and blasters with Bastion still have disappointing range and poor tracking. Artillery Vargurs were very popular for PvE because the insane alpha, but I don't know if that's still viable.

Keep in mind that the over-hyped MJD in PvE trend isn't necessary for every single PvE situation. Depending on the mission, you can use that midslot for something useful and still get away with a close range fit, but for other missions or for using artillery/rails, an MJD would be smart.


The main problem with the Golem is the terrible Cruise Missile's damage application. I wanted to skill it but then when I saw how much DPS you're losing on a target painted BS, I thought it wasn't worth the skilling time.
However, I'm as disapointed as you when I see rails damage. About blaster's tracking I think I'll be fine. It's superior to my Proteus rails' tracking, and this Proteus has run a lot of missions without any tracking issue.

I was actually quite surprised to see that blasters may have almost the same range that AC. But I agree to say that it's not enough. Maybe there are a few MJD trick to get in close, but then I don't want to run 40km without prop to reach the gate.

Whoah there man, hold up, the Golem gets a BONUS to damage application.

4x Torp Launcher II
Bastion
2 Salvager II
Tractor Beam II

2x Pithum B-Type Invuln
Pithum A-Type Medium Booster
Pith X-Type Amp
3x Domination TP

4x Vepas' BCU

Bay Thrusters II
Fuel Cache Partition II

is all you'll ever need for PvE.

Yeah no prop mod is only suitable for missions that you know will have close range enemies and few/no acc gates. Any situation with an acc gate pretty much requires a prop mod. I think the Vargur just plain beats out the Kronos in most areas. You of course don't have free choice of damage type with either ship though. You won't regret the Vargur man.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#9 - 2014-07-30 12:21:21 UTC
just throwing it in here: if you want to go rails, a vindicator is your best bet. it does not have bastion but you can still get a decent tank without sacrificing dps. it does not have the marauder bonuses either, but then again, the mjd is of limited use and loot refining just got nerfed anyway, so salvaging on the go is barely worth it.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-07-30 21:19:24 UTC
I was actually thinking about a mobile depot to switch my weaponery when needed.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-07-31 10:16:11 UTC
If a spawn comes in at 70km, MJD at them and then theyre only 30km away...

No Worries
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-07-31 12:01:30 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
If a spawn comes in at 70km, MJD at them and then theyre only 30km away...


If its not deadspace and they are at 70 km you can usually MJD 100 km away and then warp back to whatever distance you want.

Its also worth noting that MJDing to a 70km gate will put you at 0km from the gate as the gate is so wide.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-07-31 13:03:43 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
If a spawn comes in at 70km, MJD at them and then theyre only 30km away...


Its also worth noting that MJDing to a 70km gate will put you at 0km from the gate as the gate is so wide.



Confirming this, gates are absolutely massive, the grid radius is 15km so if its 70km away you'll be at the tip of the opposite edge after your jump.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#14 - 2014-07-31 13:49:28 UTC
I did some testing lately and though I did not touch any marauders between missiles\guns and drones I've found the navy geddon with mix of 5 sentry + 7 large guns to be very good and I just melt stuff in seconds.
I guess some other navy factions might have ships like this maybe navy dominix but didn't bother to check.

At any rate if u got sentry drones + large guns skills give it a go.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-07-31 15:13:50 UTC
NIFTYGetAtMe wrote:

Whoah there man, hold up, the Golem gets a BONUS to damage application.

4x Torp Launcher II
Bastion
2 Salvager II
Tractor Beam II

2x Pithum B-Type Invuln
Pithum A-Type Medium Booster
Pith X-Type Amp
3x Domination TP

4x Vepas' BCU

Bay Thrusters II
Fuel Cache Partition II

is all you'll ever need for PvE.


Didn't a Golem fitted just like this get ganked recently?
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#16 - 2014-07-31 16:24:29 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
NIFTYGetAtMe wrote:

Whoah there man, hold up, the Golem gets a BONUS to damage application.

4x Torp Launcher II
Bastion
2 Salvager II
Tractor Beam II

2x Pithum B-Type Invuln
Pithum A-Type Medium Booster
Pith X-Type Amp
3x Domination TP

4x Vepas' BCU

Bay Thrusters II
Fuel Cache Partition II

is all you'll ever need for PvE.


Didn't a Golem fitted just like this get ganked recently?

aside from being gankbait, why would you overtank it like this? my brain hurts from all the wasted mid slots.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#17 - 2014-07-31 17:02:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Vinyl 41
from my knowledge a cruise golem is the most versatile and easiest one to use
arty vargur is fun but the reload :<
NIFTYGetAtMe
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-07-31 17:06:41 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
NIFTYGetAtMe wrote:

Whoah there man, hold up, the Golem gets a BONUS to damage application.

4x Torp Launcher II
Bastion
2 Salvager II
Tractor Beam II

2x Pithum B-Type Invuln
Pithum A-Type Medium Booster
Pith X-Type Amp
3x Domination TP

4x Vepas' BCU

Bay Thrusters II
Fuel Cache Partition II

is all you'll ever need for PvE.


Didn't a Golem fitted just like this get ganked recently?


No, ganked Golems are fit absolutely horribly.
NIFTYGetAtMe
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-07-31 17:09:51 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
NIFTYGetAtMe wrote:

Whoah there man, hold up, the Golem gets a BONUS to damage application.

4x Torp Launcher II
Bastion
2 Salvager II
Tractor Beam II

2x Pithum B-Type Invuln
Pithum A-Type Medium Booster
Pith X-Type Amp
3x Domination TP

4x Vepas' BCU

Bay Thrusters II
Fuel Cache Partition II

is all you'll ever need for PvE.


Didn't a Golem fitted just like this get ganked recently?

aside from being gankbait, why would you overtank it like this? my brain hurts from all the wasted mid slots.


This is the least wasted mid rack you will ever see in a Golem. You absolutely need 3 TP's, the Medium booster and the Amp.
That leaves 2 slots. You don't need an MJD because of Bastion and knowledge of missions/rats, and rather than switching specific hardeners around all the time, 2 strong Invulns can do the job just as good. So what would YOU waste your mids with?
Qalix
Long Jump.
#20 - 2014-07-31 17:27:15 UTC
marauder in L4's is over the top. It's only benefit over the T1 BS is tank. You just don't need that much tank in the majority of missions you'll run. The few that maybe, maybe you need that kind of tank can be run with a bit of range managment just fine with a T1 BS.
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