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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

First post First post First post
Author
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#1701 - 2014-09-04 15:09:45 UTC
Even during the alliance tourny it was spoke about how Black Legion is one of the last known entities to field muninn's as a doctrine.

And when even we are primarily choosing ISHWINTARS over Muninns, that should say something about the current meta.

Muninn has always been an arty platform. I agree it should get that extra mid so it can actually fit a tank.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1702 - 2014-09-04 15:25:41 UTC
i also think the Abbadon needs some work..
- increase damage bonus too 10% and remove a turret .. space for a Nos or a repper would be nice
- reduce sig radius a little
- increase mass, while buffing speed and agility - the new amarr theme that seemed too stop after one patch weirdly
- improve cap regen

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1703 - 2014-09-04 16:30:17 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
i also think the Abbadon needs some work..
- increase damage bonus too 10% and remove a turret .. space for a Nos or a repper would be nice
- reduce sig radius a little
- increase mass, while buffing speed and agility - the new amarr theme that seemed too stop after one patch weirdly
- improve cap regen

The Abaddon is meant to be the primary armor ship of the line but it's rarely used and could indeed use some love.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1704 - 2014-09-04 18:08:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Harvey James wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Rab See wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
I find the lack of any feedback from CCP Rise for quite some time disappointing.

We all know the Ishtar is still OP. But I'm more concerned with how CCP Rise is going to make the Muninn and the Tempest worth flying again.



I am assuming this thread is now moot. It refers to Hyperion, which is done and dusted.

A new one (or more) for the next release should be split.

[Oceanything] Ishtar - fix it properly.

[Oceanything] Minmatar HACs - fix them properly.

[Oceanything] Caldari / Amarr HACs - fix them a bit.

[Oceanything] Tempest - get a life, its crap and will stay crap until it gets an armageddon like change (webs/paint?)


We all know whats wrong with the ishtar. We all know about the 'one trick' backwards kiting with auto, brawling with arty problem in the Minamatar space. We all see the Eagle as mildly problematic, and the Zealot as somewhat redundant vs the Sac. We can see how the 40k neuts of the Geddon was a gamechanger (see ATX11).

Just as a note, how many Zealots, Munnins, Vagabonds, Tempests, Eagles were there in ATXII? The drone boats have made it so dull, the damps, the snooze inducing matches (some good of course).


Agreed, i watched about half of the tourney before i got tired of seeing drone comps with geddon flagship. There werent that many interesting comps. Anyone who tried a different comp was buried, either due to poor implementation, or drone/damp onslaught.

Projectile weapons are in a weird place. Pretty much no optimal on acs, they operate all in falloff. Which since TE nerf has really messed up the vagabonds projection. Yea, i can get 500dps out of the vaga, but at point range im only doing 300-350 dps, including drones. Maybe upping vagas falloff to 15% per level might help alil.

Muninn, i still think giving 5 mids would be good and dropping some lows to compensate. Lets take advantage of minmatar t2 resist. I dont see sacs or zealots pidgeon holed into shield fits, which amarr t2 resist profile does nothing for. Or, if they insist on leaving muninn armor, at least give a 4th mid so we can fit scram/web/cap booster so it can brawl effectively. Still prefer shield artillery though.

Tempest.. idk what to do. Web bonus seems a bit OP though. Tp bonus is pretty lame for a BS. 10% RoF and tracking bonus could be interesting.


perhaps AC's could use a little more optimal range too help with damage application.. especially helpful for brawling fits where optimal range is so small..

T2 resists i think are in need of a revisit .. they can penalise ships a little too much .. and i find that minnie has more resists amount than any other races ships do .. they need dialling down a little .. and or perhaps spreading it out a little more without homogenising them too much ofc..


Im ok with ac optimal, and prefrencing fall-off. Since blasters are more about optimal generally. Id just like to see ac falloff buffed. Especially on the vaga. Minmatar hacs struggle to get past 500dps. Even when you do make it past that, youre only applying a portion in your desired engagement range. Do i want 500 dps at 25km, no. But it would be nice to be in the low 400's. Especially when i fit specifically for range.

With 220s and x2 TE and x2 gyro on my vaga, it does the 300-350 dps at 20km, including drones. Take 80 dps from drones away and youre at 270-220dps. Kinda pathetic really. Its worse than eagle dps. And thats with sacrificing TWO lows for better range.

The reason i bring it up is the vaga lacks the dps at the range it operates at to break tanks of active rep ships. Even some t1 ships. Its great for killing tackle, but is lacking with cruisers.

In terms of the t2 resists, have you seen the Sac? Amarr t2 resists, and a resist bonus. Gets well over what any minmatar hac gets. Also, due to minny t2 slot layout, its hard to fit an invuln. Most of the time, i fly minny HACs with a dcu or nothing and rely on native resist. 75/60/40/50 is not a hard resist profile to counter. Yea its good against lasers, but laser boats arent everywhere.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#1705 - 2014-09-04 23:09:04 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
-snip-
With 220s and x2 TE and x2 gyro on my vaga, it does the 300-350 dps at 20km, including drones. Take 80 dps from drones away and youre at 270-220dps. -snip-


OMG it must really suck to be you!

A short range gun with short range - zee HORROR

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1706 - 2014-09-05 03:26:16 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
-snip-
With 220s and x2 TE and x2 gyro on my vaga, it does the 300-350 dps at 20km, including drones. Take 80 dps from drones away and youre at 270-220dps. -snip-


OMG it must really suck to be you!

A short range gun with short range - zee HORROR


No, a/c's project through fall-off. Have almost 0 optimal, so dps is applied almost always in fall-off. Yet i have a hull with a fall-off bonus, and 2 TE to gain more range, and yet, the applied dps is still far lower than other hacs in their intended engagement range. Learn to read the whole post.

Not to mention, based on your KB, you don't fly minmatar, and are just used to blaster boats, some very badly fit blaster boats i might add (nice eagle).

"i'm going to tell you how wrong you are about a weapon system i never use" Troll much?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#1707 - 2014-09-05 08:52:39 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
-snap, congratulations! -
Not to mention, based on your KB, you don't fly minmatar, and are just used to blaster boats, some very badly fit blaster boats i might add (nice eagle).

"i'm going to tell you how wrong you are about a weapon system i never use" Troll much?


Who is trolling who now?

What haz my opinion to do wizz zee HAC balance or autocannons?

Over close to a decade I thought I was making very clear that I do not fly whine-matar boats and I do not have to to have an opinion about them?

And what haz my keyboard ever done to you?

For your information, the fittings I craft on SiSi to later use on TQ are not your concern. Some of them are now publicly used in the current Alliance Tournament XII by teams that have been here for so long, you weren't born yet.

Pace yourself, noob from two days ago!

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1708 - 2014-09-05 10:36:26 UTC
Remember the vaga is obscenely quick - you cant give kiters too much DPS.
Liquidtrance123
#1709 - 2014-09-05 10:44:34 UTC
Odithia wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
i also think the Abbadon needs some work..
- increase damage bonus too 10% and remove a turret .. space for a Nos or a repper would be nice
- reduce sig radius a little
- increase mass, while buffing speed and agility - the new amarr theme that seemed too stop after one patch weirdly
- improve cap regen

The Abaddon is meant to be the primary armor ship of the line but it's rarely used and could indeed use some love.


Two words: Khanid Abaddon Twisted
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#1710 - 2014-09-05 11:59:33 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
-snip-
With 220s and x2 TE and x2 gyro on my vaga, it does the 300-350 dps at 20km, including drones. Take 80 dps from drones away and youre at 270-220dps. -snip-


OMG it must really suck to be you!

A short range gun with short range - zee HORROR


OMG it must be hell being so stupid!

A short range gun on a kiting ship!!!

So make the Vaga a brawler, dps bonuses galore vs the falloff bonus. 5 slot mids, slower.

Make the Muninn kiter, optimal and falloff bonuses. 4 slot mids, give it some DPS ffs and vaga fast.

And dear god, resolve the minmatar DUMB_meta. Armour and shield ships, dedicated shield only logi, categories with only one type of ship, categoreis with mixed types and upside down bonuses. Command bonuses for shields ... a ship that can fit artillery with NO rigs or fitting mods, give me one?

If its a shield race, make the shield ships decent. Claymore and Sleip aside, the rest are terrible. Make the armour ships decent? Good DPS with better options than the worst armour tankers.

Then CCP rolls out crap like the Wolf and Muninn, speed demons in no WAY at all, gives us mid essential ewar and forces shield tanking on ships with it.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1711 - 2014-09-08 23:00:40 UTC
IMO all HAC's are OP. Ishtar is the most OP of all, though.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#1712 - 2014-09-10 02:32:46 UTC
Tempest slot redo will not cut it

7 guns so it can benefit from dual dmg bonus in actual dps number or add application bonus and buff rof.

If you want to keep tier 1 tempest as garbage with sub battle cruiser dps and agility than please for a love of all that is holy do fix tempest fleet issue so it is used over tier 1 phoon or maelstrom, it is a bloody shame where it sit currently.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

MukkBarovian
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1713 - 2014-09-10 08:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: MukkBarovian
Whats wrong with armor RLML ships? Its not like the Cerberus is something anyone complains about. Would it be that terrible to give armor fleets access to RLML ships? HAMs are awful and HM got hit by the nerfhammer so badly they're hardly usable.

The Ishtar is till op after the nerf. No change. It still projects damage at range better than any other HAC. I'm really tired of sentry drones at this point.

At least the Tempest model looks good. The ship itself has been garbage for a long time. I think I'm in the target painter camp. People would appreciate having them in fleets.
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#1714 - 2014-09-11 11:15:16 UTC
...................and the next update is rapidaly approaching yet we are still playing "Ishtars Online".

Can we get any infomation on what you think the Ishtar tweak has done to hte game? Personally, I feel like nothing has changed. We still field Ishtar fleets and they're still superior by a not just a margin but an entire page. I still use the Ishtar solo because it's still superb and a better choice than any other HAC.

I would like to fly different ships in the game but until medium sentry drones are introduced and the Ishtar gets it's bonuses limited to those I think everyone will just keep flying it. Cause, you know, if you're not flying an Ishtar; you're doing it wrong.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#1715 - 2014-09-12 15:15:06 UTC
For %$@#% sake please give the eagle moar dps! Give her drones! Specifically a 15^3m drone bay for 3 light drones. Theres is no way that my t1 moa should out dps its hac variant. Sure, it can tank a bit moar, but that means nothing if everything can outrep your damage. Its bad enough that it doesn't do hybrids as well as gallente (more tracking and dps bonuses). Whether blaster or rail fit.

Also, why are caldari ships so slow and sluggish? Its a shield ship........
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1716 - 2014-09-12 15:39:35 UTC
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
For %$@#% sake please give the eagle moar dps! Give her drones! Specifically a 15^3m drone bay for 3 light drones. Theres is no way that my t1 moa should out dps its hac variant. Sure, it can tank a bit moar, but that means nothing if everything can outrep your damage. Its bad enough that it doesn't do hybrids as well as gallente (more tracking and dps bonuses). Whether blaster or rail fit.

Also, why are caldari ships so slow and sluggish? Its a shield ship........


Because caldari ships generally have bigger HP pools than gal or minmatar. Theyre normally used in fleets where logi is readily available. See HERO's moa/eagle doctrine, or older Rokh doctrines, before it was drones online. Amarr is pretty much the same, but armor and lasers.

I however would not be opposed to a minor speed buff for caldari.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#1717 - 2014-09-13 00:15:42 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
For %$@#% sake please give the eagle moar dps! Give her drones! Specifically a 15^3m drone bay for 3 light drones. Theres is no way that my t1 moa should out dps its hac variant. Sure, it can tank a bit moar, but that means nothing if everything can outrep your damage. Its bad enough that it doesn't do hybrids as well as gallente (more tracking and dps bonuses). Whether blaster or rail fit.

Also, why are caldari ships so slow and sluggish? Its a shield ship........


Because caldari ships generally have bigger HP pools than gal or minmatar. Theyre normally used in fleets where logi is readily available. See HERO's moa/eagle doctrine, or older Rokh doctrines, before it was drones online. Amarr is pretty much the same, but armor and lasers.

I however would not be opposed to a minor speed buff for caldari.


The eagle still needs more dps.........and I don't believe that they should be as slow or nearly as sluggish as armor boats of amarr.
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1718 - 2014-09-13 09:23:06 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
...................and the next update is rapidaly approaching yet we are still playing "Ishtars Online".

Can we get any infomation on what you think the Ishtar tweak has done to hte game?


The man is making a fair point.

Can I respectfully suggest the next go around is less "tweak" more "bludgeon" down to normality?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1719 - 2014-09-13 10:16:01 UTC
Sentry drones need to be hit with the whiffle bat in the worst possible way.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#1720 - 2014-09-13 12:14:11 UTC
Tempest: 2 dps related bonuses, but terrible dps. Needs more dps or complete change to a bonus