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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1681 - 2014-08-30 15:43:24 UTC
unslaught wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
irrelevant you failed to state why the ishtar shoudl have more cargo than any other HAC. The vag uses less cargo than the others because you carry at most 1 or 2 replacements for the ancilliary boosters. A deimos and zealot uses way more charges just to work. THe ishtar doe snot even NEED a cargo hold!!
But...but...muh spare drones



huge cargo = exploration

don't think you need to search any further then that..


Thats actually a good point. Ishtars are fairly common as exploration boats. Im sure ishtar will be tweaked again in future patches. If it becomes an issue the numbers can always be changed.

Also, i decided to fit up a muninn to see the speed changes. Not too bad tbh. Flying a nano muninn.. 2k cold and 3k OH. Thats with zors.

If we could add a mid, or 2 and drop a low, itd be in a good spot. Also more PG please. Id like to fit 720s and mwd and single LSE w/o a rig. Its an arty boat, it should be able to fit without rigs. I mean, 18k EHP is not alot of tank for a HAC.. and that extra rig slot would be better for anything else other than a pg rig.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1682 - 2014-08-31 03:02:34 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
unslaught wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
irrelevant you failed to state why the ishtar shoudl have more cargo than any other HAC. The vag uses less cargo than the others because you carry at most 1 or 2 replacements for the ancilliary boosters. A deimos and zealot uses way more charges just to work. THe ishtar doe snot even NEED a cargo hold!!
But...but...muh spare drones



huge cargo = exploration

don't think you need to search any further then that..


Thats actually a good point. Ishtars are fairly common as exploration boats. Im sure ishtar will be tweaked again in future patches. If it becomes an issue the numbers can always be changed.

Also, i decided to fit up a muninn to see the speed changes. Not too bad tbh. Flying a nano muninn.. 2k cold and 3k OH. Thats with zors.

If we could add a mid, or 2 and drop a low, itd be in a good spot. Also more PG please. Id like to fit 720s and mwd and single LSE w/o a rig. Its an arty boat, it should be able to fit without rigs. I mean, 18k EHP is not alot of tank for a HAC.. and that extra rig slot would be better for anything else other than a pg rig.


Muninn needs complete re-envisioning it seems to have lost sight of what it is trying to be.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1683 - 2014-08-31 03:38:31 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
unslaught wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
irrelevant you failed to state why the ishtar shoudl have more cargo than any other HAC. The vag uses less cargo than the others because you carry at most 1 or 2 replacements for the ancilliary boosters. A deimos and zealot uses way more charges just to work. THe ishtar doe snot even NEED a cargo hold!!
But...but...muh spare drones



huge cargo = exploration

don't think you need to search any further then that..


Thats actually a good point. Ishtars are fairly common as exploration boats. Im sure ishtar will be tweaked again in future patches. If it becomes an issue the numbers can always be changed.

Also, i decided to fit up a muninn to see the speed changes. Not too bad tbh. Flying a nano muninn.. 2k cold and 3k OH. Thats with zors.

If we could add a mid, or 2 and drop a low, itd be in a good spot. Also more PG please. Id like to fit 720s and mwd and single LSE w/o a rig. Its an arty boat, it should be able to fit without rigs. I mean, 18k EHP is not alot of tank for a HAC.. and that extra rig slot would be better for anything else other than a pg rig.


Muninn needs complete re-envisioning it seems to have lost sight of what it is trying to be.


Agreed. I think it should shift to shield tanked. Id like to see 5 mids since it doesnt have a tanking bonus. drop a couple lows. Maybe 6/5/4 or if we're lucky 6/5/5. A slow, armor tanked artillery platform is just garbage for solo, and in fleet other ships do it better. T2 minnie resists suck for armor tanking., i dont see t2 amarr pidgeon holed into a shield tanked hac, which their t2 resist profile does nothing to help.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1684 - 2014-08-31 20:50:19 UTC
Shield munnin...yum
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#1685 - 2014-09-01 04:03:13 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
T2 minnie resists suck for armor tanking., i dont see t2 amarr pidgeon holed into a shield tanked hac, which their t2 resist profile does nothing to help.
It does as well as Gallente T2 resists. They both have that same explosive hole. Also, several Minmatar ships armor tank better than they shield tank, and giving the Muninn the ability to armor-tank (or at least the ability to do either competently) would be a nice extension of that theme.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1686 - 2014-09-01 10:02:56 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Agreed. I think it should shift to shield tanked. Id like to see 5 mids since it doesnt have a tanking bonus. drop a couple lows. Maybe 6/5/4 or if we're lucky 6/5/5. A slow, armor tanked artillery platform is just garbage for solo, and in fleet other ships do it better. T2 minnie resists suck for armor tanking., i dont see t2 amarr pidgeon holed into a shield tanked hac, which their t2 resist profile does nothing to help.



Works as well as any other race. In fact all races have same total ammount of defenses on their resit profiles. JSut do not use only EANMs. Use 1 Explosive 1 Kin hardener and 1 DC.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1687 - 2014-09-01 12:37:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Agreed. I think it should shift to shield tanked. Id like to see 5 mids since it doesnt have a tanking bonus. drop a couple lows. Maybe 6/5/4 or if we're lucky 6/5/5. A slow, armor tanked artillery platform is just garbage for solo, and in fleet other ships do it better. T2 minnie resists suck for armor tanking., i dont see t2 amarr pidgeon holed into a shield tanked hac, which their t2 resist profile does nothing to help.



Works as well as any other race. In fact all races have same total ammount of defenses on their resit profiles. JSut do not use only EANMs. Use 1 Explosive 1 Kin hardener and 1 DC.


Sac has 5 lows, amarr t2 resists, and a resist bonus. Why cant minny have a t2 ship with 5 mids and no tank bonus? Minmatar armor boats arent that great due to mids plus two large resist holes as opposed to 1 on most other hacs.. Look at wolf, its plauged by the same issue. No range control. Yes you can use dcu plus hardeners and get a respectable tank, but then youre stuck with trying to brawl in an arty platform, which is stupid. Or you can go acs, but if you fit active tank, youre gonna need a cap booster. So no web, and no range control. Optimal bonus does pretty much nothing for acs.

Take the jag/wolf for example. Jag is meant for arty, is fast, and has mids/lows to work with. Wolf is more a brawler and can get a decent armor tank. The problem is no range control. really.. the roles should go the other way if you want to stay consistent.

Jag/vagabond are the same manufacturers, but have different bonuses. Optimal for jag, falloff for vaga

Wolf/muninn are both armor with f'd mids. One has falloff, the other optimal.

Vagabond should move into muninn role, and muninn should get bonus favored for acs. A super fast arty platform would be fun. Vaga already has 4mids, and speed. Drop falloff for optimal and shield boost for tracking. Muninn can then become the ac armor brawler. But would need a tank bonus to be competitive. Also if it stays armor, its falloff bonus should be huge since it will largely be slower than anything else.

I know that will probably never happen, i would just like to see the muninn synergize with its role. Its a slow, armor tanked artillery platform that has very few ways to defend itself. It needs mids for defense or optional shield tank to get passable speed.

I love artillery, and would like to see it in a role other than ganking. It should have practical uses outside a 1400 nado or insta-lock hurricane.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1688 - 2014-09-01 15:39:00 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


Agreed. I think it should shift to shield tanked. Id like to see 5 mids since it doesnt have a tanking bonus. drop a couple lows. Maybe 6/5/4 or if we're lucky 6/5/5. A slow, armor tanked artillery platform is just garbage for solo, and in fleet other ships do it better. T2 minnie resists suck for armor tanking., i dont see t2 amarr pidgeon holed into a shield tanked hac, which their t2 resist profile does nothing to help.



Works as well as any other race. In fact all races have same total ammount of defenses on their resit profiles. JSut do not use only EANMs. Use 1 Explosive 1 Kin hardener and 1 DC.


Sac has 5 lows, amarr t2 resists, and a resist bonus. Why cant minny have a t2 ship with 5 mids and no tank bonus? Minmatar armor boats arent that great due to mids plus two large resist holes as opposed to 1 on most other hacs.. Look at wolf, its plauged by the same issue. No range control. Yes you can use dcu plus hardeners and get a respectable tank, but then youre stuck with trying to brawl in an arty platform, which is stupid. Or you can go acs, but if you fit active tank, youre gonna need a cap booster. So no web, and no range control. Optimal bonus does pretty much nothing for acs.

Take the jag/wolf for example. Jag is meant for arty, is fast, and has mids/lows to work with. Wolf is more a brawler and can get a decent armor tank. The problem is no range control. really.. the roles should go the other way if you want to stay consistent.

Jag/vagabond are the same manufacturers, but have different bonuses. Optimal for jag, falloff for vaga

Wolf/muninn are both armor with f'd mids. One has falloff, the other optimal.

Vagabond should move into muninn role, and muninn should get bonus favored for acs. A super fast arty platform would be fun. Vaga already has 4mids, and speed. Drop falloff for optimal and shield boost for tracking. Muninn can then become the ac armor brawler. But would need a tank bonus to be competitive. Also if it stays armor, its falloff bonus should be huge since it will largely be slower than anything else.

I know that will probably never happen, i would just like to see the muninn synergize with its role. Its a slow, armor tanked artillery platform that has very few ways to defend itself. It needs mids for defense or optional shield tank to get passable speed.

I love artillery, and would like to see it in a role other than ganking. It should have practical uses outside a 1400 nado or insta-lock hurricane.


Because minmatar focus is not tank is SPEED. Altough rise and fozzie stole most of the speed and agility of minmatar on last 2 years.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#1689 - 2014-09-02 22:00:25 UTC
Let's reduce the Ishtar's band with to 100. Better damage application than a Myrmidon. Less drone DPs than a Dominix. Maneuverability of a cruiser. I think that's where HACs should be.

DPS: BS > HAC > BC

Speed: HAC > BC > BS

Tank: BS > BC > HAC
Escort DarkAven
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1690 - 2014-09-03 10:11:05 UTC
I have admit, Purely me own incompetence, i didnt read all 85 pages of replies.

The 10 or so pages i did read, mainly focused on the Ishtar and Muninn.

However my problem is with the Eagle. I love the new Moa design, and all of its variants, i even have an alt that flew AC Moa's for 2years before the Moa got a hybrid damage bonus.

The Moa... i absolutely love it... its a great ship, i love flying it, i love the feeling of just punching someone in the face with it, and allthough its damage is quite alot lower then all the broken drone boats, it also falls short against its main competitor the Thorax.
this is mainly dude to the fact that the Thorax has a large dronebay, which truly buffs its power.

The Gila, as we all know, is beyond Epic in strength, and the Onyx also seems like a capable ship (cant fly it yet so havent tested it)

The Eagle however... ... is utter trash. It is by far the weakest ship for its cost in all of EvE. Sure its tank is nothing to scuff at, but the rest is really bad.

Here is a few comparission to the weakness of the ship.

First of all, the Eagle is capable of less dps then its T1 variant. If u fit the biggest guns, all the mag-stabs, and all the possible damage rigs... the moa still has 3 drones to tip the favor, meaning that the moa is capable of just a little bit of extra dps.
Also the damage bonus is moved from the cruiser skill onto the hac skill on the eagle, meaning that unless u have HAC5, u will lose additional DPS from upgrading to the Eagle.

If we compare the eagle to the other ships in HAC catagory we find it even weaker.
Winmatar:
The vagabond, sports an active tanking bonus, a damage application bonus, aswell as double damage bonus. Also has a decent dronebay of 25m3

The Muninn, although somewhat odd in nature, sports double damage bonus from the rupture hull, and double damage application bonus. Muninn also has a 25m3 dronebay

Amaar:
The Zealot is quite a good ship, it sports a cap bonus, double damage bonus, and a range bonus ("damage application").
The Zealot doesnt have a dronebay. I personally consider the zealot weaker then most of the other HACs

The Sac, is one of my all time favorite eve ships. It sports a tank bonus, a range bonus ("damage application"), and a double damage bonus. The sac also has a very nice dronebay of 50m3

Gallente:
The deimos is the eagles biggest contender, its a beast of a ship, sporting an active tank bonus, a damage application bonus, aswell as double damage bonus. The deimos also has nice 50m3 Dronebay

The Ishtar, is in my oppion the most broken ship in the game. this is because its droneboat which is capable of nearling dealing BS damage. The bonuses on the ishtar are very specific and hard to compare, however it is quite quite strong.

Caldari:
The Cerberus, is a missile sniping support ship, its kinda weak for brawling engagements but still a decent ship.
The cerb sports a double range bonus (damage application i guess), aswell as double damage bonus
The cerb has a weak dronebay of only 15m3

And then the Eagle.
The eagle sports a double range bonus, a tank bonus, and a SINGLE DAMAGE BONUS. It also holds no drones.
The double range bonus, effectively makes it a long range support ship.

This quote is taken from the eve-uni wiki and sums up the eagle every well
"Unfortunately the Eagle is rather specialised and doesn't perform very well in any other role than sniper, making it unpopular overall."

Now the Eagle on earth, is a majestic hunter, feared by all its prey.
In EvE the Eagle is a joke, and everyone laughs at it, and then blows it up.

So i guess this is a plea to the EvE gods, Fozzie and Rise, if they could help the Eagle out.


My own Quick, and possibly feeble thoughts on the Eagle, should be to change the hulls bonusses to make it a worthy contender.

New Eagle bonusses
Caldari Cruiser skill:
4% Shield Resist Bonus
5% Hybrid Damage bonus

HAC skill:
25% Bonus to hybrid optimal range
2-3% increase to hybrid damage bonus ( or maybe 5% bonus to hybrid blaster damage )

(also give it som utility, by giving it a dronebay (25m3 bandwith maybe 50hull?)

i Honestly hope, something good will happen to the eagle.
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#1691 - 2014-09-03 11:28:56 UTC
Escort DarkAven wrote:
Now the Eagle on earth, is a majestic hunter, feared by all its prey.
In EvE the Eagle is a joke, and everyone laughs at it, and then blows it up.

So i guess this is a plea to the EvE gods, Fozzie and Rise, if they could help the Eagle out.


My own Quick, and possibly feeble thoughts on the Eagle, should be to change the hulls bonusses to make it a worthy contender.

New Eagle bonusses
Caldari Cruiser skill:
4% Shield Resist Bonus
5% Hybrid Damage bonus

HAC skill:
25% Bonus to hybrid optimal range
2-3% increase to hybrid damage bonus ( or maybe 5% bonus to hybrid blaster damage )

(also give it som utility, by giving it a dronebay (25m3 bandwith maybe 50hull?)

i Honestly hope, something good will happen to the eagle.



Personally, I think if you push a low slot to a high slot and buff it's pg/cpu to fit an extra gun it will make a huge difference to the hull and won't break it's intended role (it will actually make it a viable sniper) without giving the ship silly large bonuses (like 25% optimal range bonus per level)

Have a look at what it would do with 6 guns and only 3 low slots. Makes sense to me.

After that, maybe, just maybe though, consider adding a small drone bay of 15m^3
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1692 - 2014-09-03 11:33:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
just give it a 10% damage bonus like the command ships get and add a decent dronebay and increase its speed closer too the cerberus and then maybe blaster eagles could be a viable option..
perhaps change an optimal bonus too a falloff bonus .. would be great for blasters .. and gives it a little more variety..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Escort DarkAven
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1693 - 2014-09-03 12:04:29 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Escort DarkAven wrote:
Now the Eagle on earth, is a majestic hunter, feared by all its prey.
In EvE the Eagle is a joke, and everyone laughs at it, and then blows it up.

So i guess this is a plea to the EvE gods, Fozzie and Rise, if they could help the Eagle out.


My own Quick, and possibly feeble thoughts on the Eagle, should be to change the hulls bonusses to make it a worthy contender.

New Eagle bonusses
Caldari Cruiser skill:
4% Shield Resist Bonus
5% Hybrid Damage bonus

HAC skill:
25% Bonus to hybrid optimal range
2-3% increase to hybrid damage bonus ( or maybe 5% bonus to hybrid blaster damage )

(also give it som utility, by giving it a dronebay (25m3 bandwith maybe 50hull?)

i Honestly hope, something good will happen to the eagle.



Personally, I think if you push a low slot to a high slot and buff it's pg/cpu to fit an extra gun it will make a huge difference to the hull and won't break it's intended role (it will actually make it a viable sniper) without giving the ship silly large bonuses (like 25% optimal range bonus per level)

Have a look at what it would do with 6 guns and only 3 low slots. Makes sense to me.

After that, maybe, just maybe though, consider adding a small drone bay of 15m^3


Giving it an extra gun is basically adding a little over 25% damage to it, but unlike the hull bonus i presented, giving it more fitting to add an extra gun, would possibly push the fit in an unhealthy direction... the tank, and the general fit of the ship is just fine... the damage is not.

Also when looking at HACs in general, all Races except caldari has:
One brawling HAC: Deimos, Sac, Muninn
One Kiting HAC: Zealot, vagabond, Ishtar (sentry kiting)

however the caldari, has kiting, and super mega long range sniping...

My point about the Eagle wasnt that it couldnt do the task it currently has, its that it ONLY does that task.
Making it into a brawler/sniper boat, is better then a Sniper/deadweight boat.

The basic fact that all other HACs in the game has a double damage bonus, while the eagle doesnt, is a pure and simple problem.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1694 - 2014-09-03 12:53:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Escort DarkAven wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Escort DarkAven wrote:
Now the Eagle on earth, is a majestic hunter, feared by all its prey.
In EvE the Eagle is a joke, and everyone laughs at it, and then blows it up.

So i guess this is a plea to the EvE gods, Fozzie and Rise, if they could help the Eagle out.


My own Quick, and possibly feeble thoughts on the Eagle, should be to change the hulls bonusses to make it a worthy contender.

New Eagle bonusses
Caldari Cruiser skill:
4% Shield Resist Bonus
5% Hybrid Damage bonus

HAC skill:
25% Bonus to hybrid optimal range
2-3% increase to hybrid damage bonus ( or maybe 5% bonus to hybrid blaster damage )

(also give it som utility, by giving it a dronebay (25m3 bandwith maybe 50hull?)

i Honestly hope, something good will happen to the eagle.



Personally, I think if you push a low slot to a high slot and buff it's pg/cpu to fit an extra gun it will make a huge difference to the hull and won't break it's intended role (it will actually make it a viable sniper) without giving the ship silly large bonuses (like 25% optimal range bonus per level)

Have a look at what it would do with 6 guns and only 3 low slots. Makes sense to me.

After that, maybe, just maybe though, consider adding a small drone bay of 15m^3


Giving it an extra gun is basically adding a little over 25% damage to it, but unlike the hull bonus i presented, giving it more fitting to add an extra gun, would possibly push the fit in an unhealthy direction... the tank, and the general fit of the ship is just fine... the damage is not.

Also when looking at HACs in general, all Races except caldari has:
One brawling HAC: Deimos, Sac, Muninn
One Kiting HAC: Zealot, vagabond, Ishtar (sentry kiting)

however the caldari, has kiting, and super mega long range sniping...

My point about the Eagle wasnt that it couldnt do the task it currently has, its that it ONLY does that task.
Making it into a brawler/sniper boat, is better then a Sniper/deadweight boat.

The basic fact that all other HACs in the game has a double damage bonus, while the eagle doesnt, is a pure and simple problem.


The muninn isnt a brawler, its "supposed" to be an armor sniper. Hence the optimal bonus. You could make it into a brawler, but its not that impressive due to lack of mids. The muninn needs another look, its roles are conflicting. Since to get a decent armor tank youre going to have to use 4-5 out of the 6 lows. Then fitting artillery leaves almost no PG left. You might be able to squeeze a gyro in there. But no TE, so projection is meh. Then, because youve armor tanked it, its slow and things can get under your guns easily and kill you.

Personally, i fly it shield fit, and stuff the lows with gyro/te and nano. Seems to work better that way. 5 mid muninn, no tank bonus plz. Drop 1-2 lows. Then i can go dual LSE/web/point/mwd. Then it would be a brilliant ship.
Speedkermit Damo
Invicta.
Muffins of Mayhem
#1695 - 2014-09-04 09:02:09 UTC
I find the lack of any feedback from CCP Rise for quite some time disappointing.

We all know the Ishtar is still OP. But I'm more concerned with how CCP Rise is going to make the Muninn and the Tempest worth flying again.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#1696 - 2014-09-04 09:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Escort DarkAven wrote:

Personally, I think if you push a low slot to a high slot and buff it's pg/cpu to fit an extra gun it will make a huge difference to the hull and won't break it's intended role (it will actually make it a viable sniper) without giving the ship silly large bonuses (like 25% optimal range bonus per level)

Have a look at what it would do with 6 guns and only 3 low slots. Makes sense to me.

After that, maybe, just maybe though, consider adding a small drone bay of 15m^3


Giving it an extra gun is basically adding a little over 25% damage to it, but unlike the hull bonus i presented, giving it more fitting to add an extra gun, would possibly push the fit in an unhealthy direction... the tank, and the general fit of the ship is just fine... the damage is not.

Also when looking at HACs in general, all Races except caldari has:
One brawling HAC: Deimos, Sac, Muninn
One Kiting HAC: Zealot, vagabond, Ishtar (sentry kiting)

however the caldari, has kiting, and super mega long range sniping...

My point about the Eagle wasnt that it couldnt do the task it currently has, its that it ONLY does that task.
Making it into a brawler/sniper boat, is better then a Sniper/deadweight boat.

The basic fact that all other HACs in the game has a double damage bonus, while the eagle doesnt, is a pure and simple problem.

If you give the Eagle an extra high slot and an extra turret hardpoint it would get a 20% buff in damage. Due to the fact that you're trading a low for a high you lose either a MFS II or a DCU II. This means that you would have to choose between damage and tank in your lows.
In order to be able to use the extra high slot the ship would require a 15% PG buff to it's basic PG value (990-1138.5). After these two changes and all level 5 skills are applied you end up with something like this:

A 250mm Rail Eagle will be just shy of enough PG and CPU to fully T2 fit so a pilot would require to use downgraded/faction modules or implants to fully T2 fit.The ship would be capable of 515 DPS @ 53+25km (CN AM) or 430 DPS @ 79+25 (with CN Uranium). This performance actually makes the Eagle a viable Shield Fleet Sniper platform. It's direct competitors are the Naga, Rokh and Vulture (Ferox can compete but it's not great). These ships all have unique differences to the Eagle and posses their own advantages and disadvantages meaning the Eagle isn't crowded out of the role and finds it's own place within the ship line up.

When Blaster fit the above changes only buff the ships DPS by 20% while still not making it a simple matter to fit in either the buffer or XL-ASB versions. The ship still comes across as "weaker" when compared to the other HAC's in the brawling role and this could be very easily fixed with a small 15m^3 drone bay.

This way you don't need to mess around with the ships intended role(s) or bonuses and only need to change a couple of simple things.


EDIT: I fail at quoting
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#1697 - 2014-09-04 12:51:35 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
I find the lack of any feedback from CCP Rise for quite some time disappointing.

We all know the Ishtar is still OP. But I'm more concerned with how CCP Rise is going to make the Muninn and the Tempest worth flying again.



I am assuming this thread is now moot. It refers to Hyperion, which is done and dusted.

A new one (or more) for the next release should be split.

[Oceanything] Ishtar - fix it properly.

[Oceanything] Minmatar HACs - fix them properly.

[Oceanything] Caldari / Amarr HACs - fix them a bit.

[Oceanything] Tempest - get a life, its crap and will stay crap until it gets an armageddon like change (webs/paint?)


We all know whats wrong with the ishtar. We all know about the 'one trick' backwards kiting with auto, brawling with arty problem in the Minamatar space. We all see the Eagle as mildly problematic, and the Zealot as somewhat redundant vs the Sac. We can see how the 40k neuts of the Geddon was a gamechanger (see ATX11).

Just as a note, how many Zealots, Munnins, Vagabonds, Tempests, Eagles were there in ATXII? The drone boats have made it so dull, the damps, the snooze inducing matches (some good of course).
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1698 - 2014-09-04 14:14:56 UTC
Rab See wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
I find the lack of any feedback from CCP Rise for quite some time disappointing.

We all know the Ishtar is still OP. But I'm more concerned with how CCP Rise is going to make the Muninn and the Tempest worth flying again.



I am assuming this thread is now moot. It refers to Hyperion, which is done and dusted.

A new one (or more) for the next release should be split.

[Oceanything] Ishtar - fix it properly.

[Oceanything] Minmatar HACs - fix them properly.

[Oceanything] Caldari / Amarr HACs - fix them a bit.

[Oceanything] Tempest - get a life, its crap and will stay crap until it gets an armageddon like change (webs/paint?)


We all know whats wrong with the ishtar. We all know about the 'one trick' backwards kiting with auto, brawling with arty problem in the Minamatar space. We all see the Eagle as mildly problematic, and the Zealot as somewhat redundant vs the Sac. We can see how the 40k neuts of the Geddon was a gamechanger (see ATX11).

Just as a note, how many Zealots, Munnins, Vagabonds, Tempests, Eagles were there in ATXII? The drone boats have made it so dull, the damps, the snooze inducing matches (some good of course).


Agreed, i watched about half of the tourney before i got tired of seeing drone comps with geddon flagship. There werent that many interesting comps. Anyone who tried a different comp was buried, either due to poor implementation, or drone/damp onslaught.

Projectile weapons are in a weird place. Pretty much no optimal on acs, they operate all in falloff. Which since TE nerf has really messed up the vagabonds projection. Yea, i can get 500dps out of the vaga, but at point range im only doing 300-350 dps, including drones. Maybe upping vagas falloff to 15% per level might help alil.

Muninn, i still think giving 5 mids would be good and dropping some lows to compensate. Lets take advantage of minmatar t2 resist. I dont see sacs or zealots pidgeon holed into shield fits, which amarr t2 resist profile does nothing for. Or, if they insist on leaving muninn armor, at least give a 4th mid so we can fit scram/web/cap booster so it can brawl effectively. Still prefer shield artillery though.

Tempest.. idk what to do. Web bonus seems a bit OP though. Tp bonus is pretty lame for a BS. 10% RoF and tracking bonus could be interesting.
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#1699 - 2014-09-04 14:23:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Tempest.. idk what to do. Web bonus seems a bit OP though. Tp bonus is pretty lame for a BS. 10% RoF and tracking bonus could be interesting.


This is more or less the only thing to do to the Tempest. Although 10% damage would give the Tempest a large alpha advantage so both should be explored but I think the tracking bonus should be set in stone.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1700 - 2014-09-04 14:24:03 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Rab See wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
I find the lack of any feedback from CCP Rise for quite some time disappointing.

We all know the Ishtar is still OP. But I'm more concerned with how CCP Rise is going to make the Muninn and the Tempest worth flying again.



I am assuming this thread is now moot. It refers to Hyperion, which is done and dusted.

A new one (or more) for the next release should be split.

[Oceanything] Ishtar - fix it properly.

[Oceanything] Minmatar HACs - fix them properly.

[Oceanything] Caldari / Amarr HACs - fix them a bit.

[Oceanything] Tempest - get a life, its crap and will stay crap until it gets an armageddon like change (webs/paint?)


We all know whats wrong with the ishtar. We all know about the 'one trick' backwards kiting with auto, brawling with arty problem in the Minamatar space. We all see the Eagle as mildly problematic, and the Zealot as somewhat redundant vs the Sac. We can see how the 40k neuts of the Geddon was a gamechanger (see ATX11).

Just as a note, how many Zealots, Munnins, Vagabonds, Tempests, Eagles were there in ATXII? The drone boats have made it so dull, the damps, the snooze inducing matches (some good of course).


Agreed, i watched about half of the tourney before i got tired of seeing drone comps with geddon flagship. There werent that many interesting comps. Anyone who tried a different comp was buried, either due to poor implementation, or drone/damp onslaught.

Projectile weapons are in a weird place. Pretty much no optimal on acs, they operate all in falloff. Which since TE nerf has really messed up the vagabonds projection. Yea, i can get 500dps out of the vaga, but at point range im only doing 300-350 dps, including drones. Maybe upping vagas falloff to 15% per level might help alil.

Muninn, i still think giving 5 mids would be good and dropping some lows to compensate. Lets take advantage of minmatar t2 resist. I dont see sacs or zealots pidgeon holed into shield fits, which amarr t2 resist profile does nothing for. Or, if they insist on leaving muninn armor, at least give a 4th mid so we can fit scram/web/cap booster so it can brawl effectively. Still prefer shield artillery though.

Tempest.. idk what to do. Web bonus seems a bit OP though. Tp bonus is pretty lame for a BS. 10% RoF and tracking bonus could be interesting.


perhaps AC's could use a little more optimal range too help with damage application.. especially helpful for brawling fits where optimal range is so small..

T2 resists i think are in need of a revisit .. they can penalise ships a little too much .. and i find that minnie has more resists amount than any other races ships do .. they need dialling down a little .. and or perhaps spreading it out a little more without homogenising them too much ofc..

the geddon needs a little nerf .. its just too strong at everything ..
Geddon
- reduce its neut range to 5%
- reduce dronebay to be lower than the domi ... a stronger seperation of the 2 is needed as the domi gets overshadowed .
- maybe reduce drone bandwidth to 100 .. again the domi should be noticeably better than the geddon here

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using