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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Author
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#501 - 2014-07-30 10:05:16 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Good morning Rise & Fozzie, how's the weather?

Nice, nice...

Now back to work, fix sentries:

You need to be within 5000m of a sentry drone to issue commands to it.

PvE: not affected
PvP: affected
Ishtar: bombed



And the whoel concept of the drone goes down the drain.

Peopel need to stop with hatred ideas. Simply making somethign removed from game is nto the solution.

And no one cares if it doe snto affect PVE. PVE doe snot need balance as much as PVP does.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Scarlet Thellere
Natasha Aleksejewa Republik
#502 - 2014-07-30 10:05:35 UTC
Imho problem with Ishtars is combination of damage projection(and sheer force + not too bad tank + speed. Not any other hac can hit as hard as far and still be able to run away from enemies. Easiest solution would be removing sentry's from ishtar. Not other cruise size drone boat can field 5 sentries. Myrmidon can field only 4 and it is BC.

Now we have something like ishars (5 sentries), Eos (5 sentries), Dominix (5 sentries) which means that all 3 ships have similar dps, but one of them have additional pros in form of small sig, agility and speed and wh small mass.

Leaving heavy drones on Ishtars I think would be fine because you can still smartbomb them into oblivion or shoot them down with short ranged weapons.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#503 - 2014-07-30 10:22:38 UTC
Battlecruisers and battleships (minus a few noted exceptions) need a serious overhaul with respect to hitpoints/EHP. Battlecruisers (minus command ships) could easily see a +50% hitpoint bump. +100% for battleships (minus Marauders).
If these are the "new" ships for Hyperion, I can't wait... Roll

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#504 - 2014-07-30 10:23:58 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


You heard it here first folks, scan resolution make you blap small ship. Fit your dreads with SEBO for pure pwnage of anything on field.


Believe or not it was like this when Battleships were introduced :P

But hat is not the solution.

Battleships a re too easily challenged on DPS department by other ships with medium guns and that is a HUGE problem.

ALL damage oriented battleship (therefore i exclude the scorpion) shoudl do more than 1 K dps with short range weaposn and a signle damage mod.

That would be the bare minimum to make it worth their impaired mobility.

As of today it is better to bring a T3 or HAC or pirate ship over any battleship in small scale PVP, unless you need somethign very special like the Bhaalghorn or the geddon. The exception is the dominix because it can hit smalelr targets better than most cruisers. So why bring a battleship? Some would say EHP and damage.. WRONG. The proteus and other smaller ships can outdo battleships on that department. IF you need even more dps there is a single way to go.. vindicator... it is the only battleship with DPS enough to justify its lack of mobility.

In larger fleets where being able to touch target without moving is more important, some battleships still have an use. But for smaller engagements they are too fragile, and have too low dps to compensate their lack of mobility AND lack of tracking.

Between Attack BC and T3 there is not much reasons to field a battleship that is not one of the magical exceptions that I pointed above.

Again, my view are based on small scale PVP, that same one that everyone knows its the most fun and keep complaining that CCP need to focus on it. And no small scale is not 50 man gang, is 2-4 guys on each side.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#505 - 2014-07-30 10:24:55 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Battlecruisers and battleships (minus a few noted exceptions) need a serious overhaul with respect to hitpoints/EHP. Battlecruisers (minus command ships) could easily see a +50% hitpoint bump. +100% for battleships (minus Marauders).
If these are the "new" ships for Hyperion, I can't wait... Roll



Thsoe buffs withotu touchign the T2 woudl make their EHP toooo different. I would prefer a 25% for BC, 50% for battleships and an increase of some 20% on dps for battleships (that are NOT drone based, because those are already amazingly powerful).

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Ashi Turner
Weinburg's Ethical Property Holdings
#506 - 2014-07-30 10:29:40 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Regarding the Ishtar, sentry drones are the problem, not the ship. Increase the signature radius or completely change their mechanics by having them stay within 5km of the ship and not be an independent stationary turret, which is unbalanced when compared to how every other weapon system works!

What's going to happen when this change makes no difference whatsoever? Are you going to remove the tracking speed bonus completely?


Yeah sure... make weapon only working on 5km... then you have to change all guns to shoot to max 5km as well
Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
#507 - 2014-07-30 10:29:47 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
so you add a falloff bonus, but it still has absolutely no damage at all. this is a projectiles problem and a tempest problem. I think there should be changes to both.


Tempests Alpha is insane. It's not a DPS ship - it's about blapping things and projecting damage further than other BS. If you want to melt things point blank then gallente is the way forward.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#508 - 2014-07-30 10:33:08 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
so you add a falloff bonus, but it still has absolutely no damage at all. this is a projectiles problem and a tempest problem. I think there should be changes to both.


Tempests Alpha is insane. It's not a DPS ship - it's about blapping things and projecting damage further than other BS. If you want to melt things point blank then gallente is the way forward.


so autocannons don't exist?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#509 - 2014-07-30 10:34:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Maeltstome wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
so you add a falloff bonus, but it still has absolutely no damage at all. this is a projectiles problem and a tempest problem. I think there should be changes to both.


Tempests Alpha is insane. It's not a DPS ship - it's about blapping things and projecting damage further than other BS. If you want to melt things point blank then gallente is the way forward.



No one uses tempest for alpha. Maesltrom and Tornado have more alpha. No the tempest is NOT an alpha ship because it is outclassed on the department by 2 ships that fillt he role of more nimble and cheaper and the role of larger and with more EHP for roughly same price level.

And that is the whole problem with tempest. It has no ROLE.

Close range brawler? Hyperion, mega, typhoon, even maelstrom and balster rokh laught at it.

Alpha strike? Maelstrom and tornado got that slot.

Mobility ? Typhoon is far superior while fielding more dps and more range and more tank.

Long range fire support? again almost everything in game outshines it.

Neut ship fielding reasonable DPS? Geddon and Domi can field TWICE the number of neuts and still deal WAY more damage then the tempest.

Bait? No not even that.. hyperion, mael, abaddon rokh are far far superior.

Killing solo dumb t1 cruisers.. well at least it can do that.. but still worse than the hyperion and roughly on par with typhoon on that department.

So it is a ship without reason to be!


In the PAST tempest was good. When? BEfore ccp decided taht ewar on unbonused ships woudl be crap, before they nerfed neuts, before trimarks where introduced, before drone damage mods? Why? Because back then a tempests would field an omni ecm that had 4 times more change to jam somethign thatn today on an unbonused hull, and usually would get at least 1 cycle jam. People would use more repair modules before the rig age and when fleets were much smaller, that sided with NOS working till enemy ship is dry meant the tempest coudl take large advantage of the 2 utility highs to feed its own repairers while draining enemy. After drone damage mods were introduced, drone boats can do way more damage than a tempest whielfielding 2 times more Utility slots.


Today the extra mid slot is MUCH MUCH less relevant as are the 2 utility highs (because drone boats are the way to go if you need them).

That is is, tempest has NOTHING on its favor. Being versatile is just an excuse for being a failure in every possible role. Being the 5th best ship for everything in eve is not a small victory in every department. Its a massive global defeat!



The discrepancy how temepst was treated compared to other ships is clear on the hyperion case. To drop the nubmer of weapons to six it go t a super 10% per level damage bonus, while remaining with the repair bonus. The tempest nee to use 2 bonuses !!!

You know what would be the equivalent tempest treatment to the hyperion? 7/5/7 5 TURRETS!!!! 7.5 damage per level 7.5% ROF per level . EXact same treatment that was deemed fair for the hyperion. The tempest the would keep around same DPS but gain a free slot, the same treatment that was deemed fair on the hyperion. So where is the fairness and balance here?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Hsu Li
Perkone
Caldari State
#510 - 2014-07-30 10:52:43 UTC
I think tempest needs its highs changed. Either move one high to low slot or add one more turret.
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#511 - 2014-07-30 11:00:21 UTC
The one interesting thing in all of this is 'why Tempest'? Why did they stuff this thread with something that has nothing to do with HAC. Shows its truly crap.

Terrible DPS, 'tankless'. Its been picked out in a discussion for Heavy Assault Cruisers. Its polluting the discussion. CCP - please stop this now. It deserves a proper fix, not a half arsed mashup because the real issue for this thread is Ishtar/Sentries.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#512 - 2014-07-30 11:04:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Rab See wrote:
The one interesting thing in all of this is 'why Tempest'? Why did they stuff this thread with something that has nothing to do with HAC. Shows its truly crap.

Terrible DPS, 'tankless'. Its been picked out in a discussion for Heavy Assault Cruisers. Its polluting the discussion. CCP - please stop this now. It deserves a proper fix, not a half arsed mashup because the real issue for this thread is Ishtar/Sentries.




When thread was posted the tittle was different. It was HACs AND bttleships, but rise edited it later. Yes temepst discussion belongs here because its the 100th time that ccp is trying to dodge the need to fix it.


Ishtar sentries issues is even less deservignof this thread, because as everyoen knows the problem is not on the ishtar but on sentries when coupled to any tracking or range bonus.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Raw Matters
Brilliant Starfire
#513 - 2014-07-30 11:46:36 UTC
I am surprised that this is all you feel like changing about HACs, especially the Muninn is a ship with virtually no use and all you dish out is a meaningless speed increase?

I just hope something got into your way to tell us about the real changes that will follow later, as otherwise the OP would make me loose a little faith in CCP balancing.
Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#514 - 2014-07-30 11:46:38 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rab See wrote:
The one interesting thing in all of this is 'why Tempest'? Why did they stuff this thread with something that has nothing to do with HAC. Shows its truly crap.

Terrible DPS, 'tankless'. Its been picked out in a discussion for Heavy Assault Cruisers. Its polluting the discussion. CCP - please stop this now. It deserves a proper fix, not a half arsed mashup because the real issue for this thread is Ishtar/Sentries.




When thread was posted the tittle was different. It was HACs AND bttleships, but rise edited it later. Yes temepst discussion belongs here because its the 100th time that ccp is trying to dodge the need to fix it.


Ishtar sentries issues is even less deservignof this thread, because as everyoen knows the problem is not on the ishtar but on sentries when coupled to any tracking or range bonus.


.. its the Ishtar and the sentries that are the problem. You could nerf tracking, but people will just counter it with more tracking mod's.

Drop the bandwidth to 100, drop the heavy bandwidth to 20, move the ishtars sentry tracking bonus to 5%. The Ishtar loses 20% of its straight out sentry damage (as it loses 1 sentry), but keeps all of its damage potential when using Heavy Drones (as it can still deploy 5 heavies with the heavy drone change). It can be used as a ranged platform still, except its damage potential is reduced when using sentries vs its damage potential when using heavies (aka, your ranged snipers (sentries at 40km+) will do less damage than your brawling close up ships (10km)).

Its a cruiser. Yes it is a HAC but it is still a cruiser.

Yes it this is a nerf but the ship is still viable for pvp, and pve, its just no longer using a full complement of battleship grade weaponry.

Yaay!!!!

Adrie Atticus
Circle Mercs
#515 - 2014-07-30 11:53:48 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Azure Rayl wrote:
Why not drop the ishtar's drone bandwidth to 100mbit/sec . Nothing else would need to be changed then :P


Because ships are not balanced according to how they perform in a 1v1. In a fleet fight, the change you are suggesting makes virtually no difference.




This.

I suspect many of the posters here haven't been in a scrap with...let's call it 30+ Ishtars.

"Pop the drones" - There are 150 all over the place, good luck with that. And they have spares.
"Drones are static" - Great so we have 30 ishtars doing turns for 2km/s burning away from their drones with reduced MWD sig. Because, you know, that's easy to stop or hold them down. And they'll totally not pull you into drone optimals.


The counter to a modestly sized ishtar fleet is to utterly, utterly blob them to death (and perhaps/probably depending on how heavy you blob still lose on isk) or bring more ishtars.


Equal sized Tengu fleet with 100% extra logi + about 30 damp cruisers to half the incoming DPS from the Ishtars seems to be the most effective outside of getting 10 SB Rokhs on the drone herd.
Adrie Atticus
Circle Mercs
#516 - 2014-07-30 11:57:26 UTC
Harreeb Alls wrote:
The armageddon with it's neut bonus's was a stroke of genius. You should perhaps consider giving other BS's some ewar bonus's. Perhaps give the minny BS's a web or paint role bonus, the gallente a point/scram range bonus. The caldari and amarr both have ewar BS's.


Oh jebus, yes, BS with 80% bonus to web range and 40% to TP optimal per level, would actually give an incentive to train BS V outside of getting into a Blops.

Or maybe even 100% bonus per level.

Make it so.
Adrie Atticus
Circle Mercs
#517 - 2014-07-30 12:00:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Good morning Rise & Fozzie, how's the weather?

Nice, nice...

Now back to work, fix sentries:

You need to be within 5000m of a sentry drone to issue commands to it.

PvE: not affected
PvP: affected
Ishtar: bombed



And the whoel concept of the drone goes down the drain.

Peopel need to stop with hatred ideas. Simply making somethign removed from game is nto the solution.

And no one cares if it doe snto affect PVE. PVE doe snot need balance as much as PVP does.


How does the drone concept go down the drain? We're not talking about control range, it's a hard-limit of having to be close to your sentries to make them work. Carriers, domis, rattlers all will be next to their sentries because they're too slow to manuever around. Literally the only ship which would be affected by this is the vexor hull. They can always swap to heavy drones if they really want to fly it. Oh wait, Ishtars are not OP because they have a large drone bay...
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#518 - 2014-07-30 12:02:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Harreeb Alls wrote:
The armageddon with it's neut bonus's was a stroke of genius. You should perhaps consider giving other BS's some ewar bonus's. Perhaps give the minny BS's a web or paint role bonus, the gallente a point/scram range bonus. The caldari and amarr both have ewar BS's.


Oh jebus, yes, BS with 80% bonus to web range and 40% to TP optimal per level, would actually give an incentive to train BS V outside of getting into a Blops.

Or maybe even 100% bonus per level.

Make it so.



You nuts? 80% web range per level? 40% TP range per level? The first is an overpowerign bonus that is still dumb becaus eyour web would be double your lock range. The TP bonus is just stupid in a projectile boat.

And no incentive to train BS to V? If you are flying with a battleship without it trained to V you do nto have much to talk on this thread sorry. I fyou cannto see whyt o train to Battleships 5 than you lost complete sight of how eve works. I woudl NEVEr EVER undock in a battleship with a character without the correct racial BS to V.


Please... get out of the thread..... or think a bit more before posting.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#519 - 2014-07-30 12:05:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Ashi Turner wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Regarding the Ishtar, sentry drones are the problem, not the ship. Increase the signature radius or completely change their mechanics by having them stay within 5km of the ship and not be an independent stationary turret, which is unbalanced when compared to how every other weapon system works!

What's going to happen when this change makes no difference whatsoever? Are you going to remove the tracking speed bonus completely?


Yeah sure... make weapon only working on 5km... then you have to change all guns to shoot to max 5km as well


You either misunderstood or misread what i said, so i'll explain...

I'm proposing that sentry drones are changed so they move with the host ship (e.g. the ishtar). This would effectively turn them into medium long ranged turrets that float around your ship. This would solve two issues:

1. Sentry tracking would be affected by the host ships movement speed, just like turrets
2. Fast moving sentry ship would no longer be able to exploit their their drones, effectively, double optimal/falloff range by deploying drones and running away.

My corp mates think this defeats the purpose of sentry drones and i can't disagree with that but my response is, so what?! Sentry drones are the problem and it's better to fix the mechanic than to nerf the ship back to being useless again.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#520 - 2014-07-30 12:06:46 UTC
I would jsut accept hat sicen sentry drones are static and can take advantage on tracking issues because of that, they should have their tracking HALVED.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"