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[UNITY] We The Defiant
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Philpip
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#221 - 2014-08-04 21:42:26 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Philpip wrote:
Jinari, I think you have misunderstood slightly, I do not fight for the Caldari, look properly at who I fly with, I am a senior member of Ushra'Khan.

'You can't make anyone Caldari by force. It's a mindset. A culture. A way of life. Genetics. You can't make anyone Amarrian by force either. That's the reason you're embroiled in this utter mess and face countless attacks on a daily basis, from within and without.'

This I do agree with. While on deployment with Dauntless Naval Academy, I saw with my own eyes the atrocities committed towards slaves and I made my stand and chose my path.


Whille I understand and sympathise with your stand against Slavery, I cannot condone your acceptance of your own kind as 'collateral damage' in the fight.

Cold Wind said that we were not to fight our own.


Everyone chooses a side, if they support slavery, then they have accepted the risk.

We utilise all intel available to minimise collateral damage but war is war.


No, you were not blobbed, you just didn't bring enough people to the fight!
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#222 - 2014-08-04 22:48:04 UTC
Philpip wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Philpip wrote:
Jinari, I think you have misunderstood slightly, I do not fight for the Caldari, look properly at who I fly with, I am a senior member of Ushra'Khan.

'You can't make anyone Caldari by force. It's a mindset. A culture. A way of life. Genetics. You can't make anyone Amarrian by force either. That's the reason you're embroiled in this utter mess and face countless attacks on a daily basis, from within and without.'

This I do agree with. While on deployment with Dauntless Naval Academy, I saw with my own eyes the atrocities committed towards slaves and I made my stand and chose my path.


Whille I understand and sympathise with your stand against Slavery, I cannot condone your acceptance of your own kind as 'collateral damage' in the fight.

Cold Wind said that we were not to fight our own.


Everyone chooses a side, if they support slavery, then they have accepted the risk.

We utilise all intel available to minimise collateral damage but war is war.


Support Slavery? But the ones running the risk would be any Caldari who forsook their people to sign up with you. In any case, I see I was in error - Cold Wind only said that we should not fight other Caldari. You chose your path and the hill that you wish to die upon.

Alone. Forgotten by your ancestors.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Philpip
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#223 - 2014-08-05 06:26:12 UTC
I do not do this for the adulation of the mass of faceless conglomerates, to think you are more than a blip on their balance sheet is delusional.

The smile on the face of 1 freed slave is all I need.

No, you were not blobbed, you just didn't bring enough people to the fight!
Chronoxi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#224 - 2014-08-05 06:46:04 UTC
Hypocrites, terrorists and heathens. With every slaves you 'free', at least one innocent dies (slaves or not). And this will continue on as long as you continue your terrorist operations. You'll never be able to stop the empire, all you are doing is contributing to the death toll. To think your actions are of any benefit to anyone, are delusional and hypocritical.

Since heathens are incapable of higher cerebral functions, I'll give a crude example.

Take 5 slave lives to 'free' 1 slave, and rescued slave being unable to actually find any sort of safe employment opportunities will then be sent in some remote frontier colonies and then abused and die. Damned 6 soul, and not accomplishing anything.

weeeeEEEEEEEEEE are never ever ever!
Philpip
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#225 - 2014-08-05 08:07:11 UTC
Chronoxi wrote:
Hypocrites, terrorists and heathens. With every slaves you 'free', at least one innocent dies (slaves or not). And this will continue on as long as you continue your terrorist operations. You'll never be able to stop the empire, all you are doing is contributing to the death toll. To think your actions are of any benefit to anyone, are delusional and hypocritical.

Since heathens are incapable of higher cerebral functions, I'll give a crude example.

Take 5 slave lives to 'free' 1 slave, and rescued slave being unable to actually find any sort of safe employment opportunities will then be sent in some remote frontier colonies and then abused and die. Damned 6 soul, and not accomplishing anything.


More diatribe to try to enforce your will onto your brainwashed masses. Do you also call your Navy terrorists for taking up arms to maintain your freedom?

No slaves were lost at our hands during the operation. As for your statement 'abused and die', that is their future in your hands. In ours they are relocated and offered education and employment. Note the word 'offered', no force is used.

I understand your panic as the employment many are choosing is to take up arms and join the casue. Everyday your citizens get lazier and more complacent and your generals on the battlefield are dwindling in numbers.

We come for our people!

No, you were not blobbed, you just didn't bring enough people to the fight!
Chronoxi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#226 - 2014-08-05 15:02:51 UTC
Quite the contrary, most slaves are not abused or die under our care. The holders have a duty to provide for and care for their slaves, and make them work hard for the empire of course. This result in the slave being healthy and not having to worry about anything at all. There are many former slaves in the wretched republic that joined their military (thus the sometimes impulsive and questionable decisions made), but what of those that went to the vile federation after hearing the empty promises of a better life? Mostly they won't be able to compete with immoral federal citizens in both academic pursue and employment opportunities, so they'll still be used for hard labor only this time they will be given an abysmal amount of material payment that is not enough to give them shelter, food, medicine or warm clothing. Slaves of the empire enjoy a good life, majority of them do.

It's ridiculous how you can say that no life, even that of a slave, is lost during your operation. Have you no sympathy for the innocent lives you claimed? That you are willing to make this statement to propagate your terrorist ideas disgust me.

As for the navy of our glorious empire, they are to not only protect our empire but also to enforce God's will. Our navy had not once undertaken any sort of terrorist acts, unlike some organizations within the republic...

weeeeEEEEEEEEEE are never ever ever!
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#227 - 2014-08-05 15:20:24 UTC
If the Caldari are ever going to contribute to bringing about the end of slavery in New Eden - setting aside for a second our justified ethical discomfort over uninvited meddling in the affairs of other nations - I prefer to think we'll do it our way.

We can prove with advanced economic theory and experience that widespread slavery is an inefficient and poor way to run an economy. We can demonstrate by example the benefits of a culture of meritocratic freedom. We have the wealth and political clout to go looking for alternative partnerships and deals. We can - indeed, do - invest in the Empire by way of corporate enclaves and Caldari stations where slavery does not exist, all of which have proven to be successful and profitable for their parent corporations.

We have all sorts of gentle, cold pressure we can apply. I sympathize with Ushra'Khan, but I've always felt that their "get angry and break stuff" strategy only serves to convince the Amarrians that they (the Amarrians) are doing the right thing.

The important part from our perspective should be that whatever change we are willing to effect shouldn't come at the expense of our own values, nor at the expense of making us hypocrites. We're not cultural crusaders. Slavery must end, but the Caldari can't be the ones to end it.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Chronoxi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#228 - 2014-08-05 15:34:10 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
If the Caldari are ever going to contribute to bringing about the end of slavery in New Eden - setting aside for a second our justified ethical discomfort over uninvited meddling in the affairs of other nations - I prefer to think we'll do it our way.

We can prove with advanced economic theory and experience that widespread slavery is an inefficient and poor way to run an economy. We can demonstrate by example the benefits of a culture of meritocratic freedom. We have the wealth and political clout to go looking for alternative partnerships and deals. We can - indeed, do - invest in the Empire by way of corporate enclaves and Caldari stations where slavery does not exist, all of which have proven to be successful and profitable for their parent corporations.

We have all sorts of gentle, cold pressure we can apply. I sympathize with Ushra'Khan, but I've always felt that their "get angry and break stuff" strategy only serves to convince the Amarrians that they (the Amarrians) are doing the right thing.

The important part from our perspective should be that whatever change we are willing to effect shouldn't come at the expense of our own values, nor at the expense of making us hypocrites. We're not cultural crusaders. Slavery must end, but the Caldari can't be the ones to end it.


You do not understand what is the point of slavery. It is not for economic benefits or any such things, it is meant as a test and a path which a heathen can, hopefully, be embraced by God. Also, the economical state of our glorious empire is very stable and no amounts of station building in the empire will affect it. Do not speak as if you represent the entire Caldari people.

weeeeEEEEEEEEEE are never ever ever!
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#229 - 2014-08-05 15:45:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
I'm not speaking for all Caldari any more than you're speaking for all Amarr.

Besides, I can't argue the theology with you. Theology is by definition outside of the realms of rational motive and argument, hence why I omitted it.

I've encountered that fedo dung of an argument far too many times to even bother addressing it nowadays. If you're capable of believing that the infinitely wise creator of the universe is so stupid as to extol slavery of all things as the best way to win hearts, minds and faith then you have a much lower opinion of your maker's intellect than I would in your position, and are clearly unlikely to be persuaded away from that opinion.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#230 - 2014-08-05 15:45:43 UTC
Oh he's got a good grasp of how we see things, I'd say.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Chronoxi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#231 - 2014-08-05 15:54:14 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
I'm not speaking for all Caldari any more than you're speaking for all Amarr.

Besides, I can't argue the theology with you. Theology is by definition outside of the realms of rational motive and argument, hence why I omitted it.

I've encountered that fedo dung of an argument far too many times to even bother addressing it nowadays. If you're capable of believing that the infinitely wise creator of the universe is so stupid as to extol slavery of all things as the best way to win hearts, minds and faith then you have a much lower opinion of your maker's intellect than I would in your position, and are clearly unlikely to be persuaded away from that opinion.


Again, you do not understand what exactly is slavery. It is not to gain ANYTHING, though in the process of slavery there are some minor benefits, the sole purpose is to put a man through hardship. Though the more.. liberal nobility view slaves as a economical/political tool, they still put a slave through hardship and thus fulfilling their mission.

"Only through many hardships
Is a man stripped to his very foundations
And in such a state
Devoid of distractions
Is his soul free to soar
And in this
He is closest to God"
- The Scriptures, Book of Missions 42:5

Faith is not outside of rational motive, in fact the only rational thing to do is to embrace the true faith.

weeeeEEEEEEEEEE are never ever ever!
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#232 - 2014-08-05 16:00:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Laying aside for a moment the brobdyngnagian inadequacy of "We're not doing it to gain anything, we're doing it to make them suffer!" as a defense of the ethicality of slavery...

...if you think that slavery is about bringing people closer to God, then I invite you to recall that one time when an entire ethnic group from among your slaves staged a successful rebellion and went on to found the foreign power that is most intractibly hostile towards the Empire.

Quoting masochistic scripture doesn't make for a convincing argument when your nation is presently at war with a living, vibrant and very angry demonstration of why conversion-through-hardship just plain doesn't work.

But, you have Faith. And like I said: Faith lies outside of rationality.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#233 - 2014-08-05 16:11:05 UTC
You'll have to show me the math of that logic at some point, sir, I've stood in the Basilica itself and whilst it's a mighty impressive building, I have to say that it doesn't compare favourably with a simple mountain shrine in the Kaalakiota peaks.

It strikes me that spirituality is subjective. Highly subjective.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#234 - 2014-08-06 09:56:31 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Philpip wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Philpip wrote:
Jinari, I think you have misunderstood slightly, I do not fight for the Caldari, look properly at who I fly with, I am a senior member of Ushra'Khan.

'You can't make anyone Caldari by force. It's a mindset. A culture. A way of life. Genetics. You can't make anyone Amarrian by force either. That's the reason you're embroiled in this utter mess and face countless attacks on a daily basis, from within and without.'

This I do agree with. While on deployment with Dauntless Naval Academy, I saw with my own eyes the atrocities committed towards slaves and I made my stand and chose my path.


Whille I understand and sympathise with your stand against Slavery, I cannot condone your acceptance of your own kind as 'collateral damage' in the fight.

Cold Wind said that we were not to fight our own.


Everyone chooses a side, if they support slavery, then they have accepted the risk.

We utilise all intel available to minimise collateral damage but war is war.


Support Slavery? But the ones running the risk would be any Caldari who forsook their people to sign up with you. In any case, I see I was in error - Cold Wind only said that we should not fight other Caldari. You chose your path and the hill that you wish to die upon.

Alone. Forgotten by your ancestors.

You got me excited all over, Tuulinen-haan!!
Now you are speaking like CALDARI Attention

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#235 - 2014-08-06 14:42:13 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
You got me excited all over, Tuulinen-haan!!
Now you are speaking like CALDARI Attention


We ARE kin, you know, Kim-haani? We might have different ideas about some things, but I've never claimed you weren't Caldari in your heart.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#236 - 2014-08-06 18:29:29 UTC
Is it just me or do Pieter and Stitcher look really similar now? I keep on confusing them when I scroll past the posts I am not reading.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#237 - 2014-08-06 18:53:33 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Is it just me or do Pieter and Stitcher look really similar now? I keep on confusing them when I scroll past the posts I am not reading.


Ironically enough, it's my old Suvee ID tattoo that should give the game away. Verin didn't get one - at least not one on his forehead.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#238 - 2014-08-06 19:04:40 UTC
There will be no pestering of the bearded chins, ladies and gentlemen. We got them exactly where we want them, after a lot of pestering.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Quin Mansa
Doomheim
#239 - 2014-08-06 19:51:16 UTC
With this renewed threat of violence against our home worlds, I feel stirred within me a calling to set aside my ecumenical studies, to preserve the faithful against misguided aggression toward God's Chosen.

I am not a combat pilot, and I am not a Holder. I will carry no slaves within my small ships, and my command of battle may be meagre, but I am directing my executive officers to assemble, from those brave souls who have fully embraced God's grace, crews who are resolved to bulwark His children to their mortal end. Through His gift of artifice we will transform His light to shed Salvation upon the belligerents who imperil the faithful.

God preserve us in our task.

"Today, our future is in our hands, and His light shines down upon us." - Her Holiness Catiz I
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#240 - 2014-08-06 21:11:15 UTC
Ms Mansa, if you want a suggestion, do not do this solo. Find a group - such as PIE - and work with them. Your chances of not scattering the atoms of your crews to the solar winds increases exponentially.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.