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Crius FW plex changes

Author
Jhaelee de'Auvrie
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#1 - 2014-07-22 16:59:24 UTC
Factional Warfare
• Factional Warfare upgrades no longer give extra station slots and instead reduce NPC price on all industry activities by 10% per solar system upgrade level
• The damage and tracking of Factional Warfare Complex NPCs has been reduced significantly.


I do not know how many people caught this little bit snuck in between industry giant thread-naught breeding patch notes.

Who asked for this and (more so) who thought it was a good idea? Positive change to the plexes has been way to slow in happening. As of July 21st, you could run a plex one size over your ship solo with little problem (in a PvP ready fit). Why make it easier for bot/script running warpcorestabbed farming alts to continue to disrupt what is suppose to be a group and PvP focused activity?

If anything, we need to see a shift the other way. Make the plexes a group thing, like the incursions sites. Maybe with each size increase, add then next size of NPC without removing the smaller one(s). So a medium would have the spawn of the frigate, the destroyer, and the cruiser. This promotes greater numbers needed to run larger sites. Then, for offensive plexing, have the LP payout scale up as well.
This kind of change would leave the Novice plexes alone, and easy for newer players (and farmers) to run. So be it.

Even without additional increases to the plexes, do not make them easier to run.
Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q
#2 - 2014-07-22 17:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Zen Guerrilla
Plexes are far from being too easy to run.

It actually felt a little too hard to take out the rats on your own, even if you brought the right ship for the right plex.

And hey, maybe easier plexing might do the trick when it comes to #burnhuola2018.

pew pew

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#3 - 2014-07-22 17:12:10 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
1. They had to change it along with the industry changes.
2. The damage and tracking of plex NPCs was already pretty low. This just makes it so the result of solo pvp is now 99% determined by the solo fight itself. The hard part about each plex is the dps check, not the offensive capabilities of the rats.
Plato Forko
123 Fake Street
#4 - 2014-07-22 17:17:18 UTC
Jhaelee de'Auvrie wrote:
I do not know how many people caught this little bit snuck in between industry giant thread-naught breeding patch notes.


I didn't notice but I'd like to thank whoever made the idea a priority at CCP!

Quote:
Who asked for this and (more so) who thought it was a good idea?


I did and do (still think it's a good idea). It was difficult for FW pilots to engage in a solo fight in plexes because of the DPS from the NPCs.

Quote:
Why make it easier for bot/script running warpcorestabbed farming alts to continue to disrupt what is suppose to be a group and PvP focused activity?


You know what, I don't see the evidence to suggest that the last changes did anything to make farming any harder. I still see farmers in the warzone, I still see the Amarr militia at T1 and the Minmatar militia flitting between T3 and T4 just like always. Botting farmers were on the whole reduced by the change that prevents cloaking near a beacon, not by the change to NPC behaviour. It's still possible to bot with the present NPC behaviour, all you need is a drone boat.

Quote:
Even without additional increases to the plexes, do not make them easier to run.


here's my question: why should the game mechanics be responsible for deciding the course of the war? I mean come on, the Minmatar militia has on average 2000 characters more than the Amarr militia. Whether or not they're farmers is immaterial, if they're in the warzone doing the war then they will be affecting sov regardless of how much the mechanics are stacked in the defender's favour.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#5 - 2014-07-22 17:45:11 UTC
It sounds like a good change to me.

The problem with the current mechanic from the solo perspective is that you can almost never pvp in a higher class plex. So I might be in t1 frigate or faction frigate and be willing to fight a destroyer or af in a small (or even a cruiser in a medium) But now with the unkillable rat that does steady damage this is far less feasible. Hence we had well documented reduction in fw pvp after kronos but before huola kicked off.


There was a player who posted a request that the npcs not shoot unless you aggro them. I and a few others supported that idea. This might be a sort of compromise. But really its not as good as the solution where the rat doesn't aggro. Its not as good for pvp nor is it as good for preventing farming.

Remember the timer is not running if the rat is not killed so its not like this will increase ofarming much. But for those who like to pvp in plexes the rat dps sucks and this was doccumented by a reduction in pvp.

I don't think you should need a group to deal with the npcs in fw plexes. Low sec incursions are not my thing though. Others who like that sort of thing might feel differently.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-07-22 18:07:27 UTC
Cearain wrote:
There was a player who posted a request that the npcs not shoot unless you aggro them. I and a few others supported that idea. This might be a sort of compromise. But really its not as good as the solution where the rat doesn't aggro. Its not as good for pvp nor is it as good for preventing farming.

Yanno, having the rat not aggro at all - or even just not aggro until you shoot it - could have an impact on drone boat using AFK / botting plexers as well.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

SmokinJs Arthie
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#7 - 2014-07-22 18:17:56 UTC  |  Edited by: SmokinJs Arthie
The only ones I think getting hit hardest on the plexing changes is light missile ships. The time between volleys takes entirely too long and allows the npc to regen lots of it's health. I know for myself I am able to plex in a novice and small with my nano comet. I fought ~8 people last night in a large and the npc's affect on the battle was almost nothing, still in my trusty nano comet. Then again later in the night I fought a 2v1 in a large while in a cruor, was able to kill one but the other got away. The npc's affect was still zero.

Another issue I can see with the constant spawns is for brawlers. When they are sitting 0 on the warp in and the npc respawns they usually have to burn after it to kill it, leaving the warp in wide open. This is for blasters and autocannons, I think rockets or railguns should be able to reach the target just fine. There has been multiple instances where I warp in and the wartarget is 8-10km from the warp in making it extremely easy to get out to kite range and blap away.

These are just some of my observations so far since the changes.

edit: Another ship type that got the short end of these changes is the maulus. They dont have a tank and barely do any dps. They utilize their damps as a tank to just whittle down their opponent, which is a problem when the npc can easily tank your damage almost indefinitely.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#8 - 2014-07-22 18:42:04 UTC
npc will never solve any issues.

CCP has now tried everything from lot of npc to practically none npc and all solutions have their own faults, npc has never been a problem and will never be a solution.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#9 - 2014-07-22 18:52:38 UTC
SmokinJs Arthie wrote:
edit: Another ship type that got the short end of these changes is the maulus. They dont have a tank and barely do any dps. They utilize their damps as a tank to just whittle down their opponent, which is a problem when the npc can easily tank your damage almost indefinitely.

Few can claim to love the Maulus as much as I. So, speaking as a Maulus perve, I mean lover, I will say that there is nothing wrong with this.

The Maulus is an ewar boat. That it could be used as a combat vessel in novice plexes of old was always something of an inadvertent design quirk. Now you need a ship with decent/good dps and not the poor dps which the Maulus was able to muster. It took forever anyway to kite and kill any pvp boat with a halfway decent tank. Nothing wrong with the increased tanks on the rats now here rectifying this plex design flaw.

P.S. If you see me lying drunk and crying incoherently outside my Captain's Quarters, you will know that my Mauluses have not only kicked me onto the couch, but out the door for my betrayal. Please do not tell them and make this possibility come true. I can't live without my honey buns.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#10 - 2014-07-22 22:08:13 UTC
Plato Forko wrote:


You know what, I don't see the evidence to suggest that the last changes did anything to make farming any harder. I still see farmers in the warzone, I still see the Amarr militia at T1 and the Minmatar militia flitting between T3 and T4 just like always. Botting farmers were on the whole reduced by the change that prevents cloaking near a beacon, not by the change to NPC behaviour. It's still possible to bot with the present NPC behaviour, all you need is a drone boat.


In the first week after Kronos Amarr militia flipped six systems - Arzad, Tararan, Asghed, Iesa, Sosan, and Vard. We then went for broke in Huola and it cost us. We conquered Rouzshar during the campaign but it was hardly a focus. The process is similar to Huola on a much smaller scale. Put up a POS in system for reshipping or use next door if available.

Offensive plexing may occur but it's statistically irrelevant. Amarr has quite a few systems in the 70s and 80s percentage wise - but no Amarr system has fallen to the Minmatar since Kronos rolled out. That's very telling after three weeks. Offensive plexing by farmers is no longer going to move systems in a timely manner. Sasawong type individuals will no longer have a huge impact on the warzone other then deplexing. Taking systems now is a team effort. As much as a side may deride the roleplayers or the guys yelling in militia to fleet up for plexing - you need some of those for your militia or you're going to be hurting in the long run.

Arla Sarain
#11 - 2014-07-23 08:05:44 UTC
Jhaelee de'Auvrie wrote:


Who asked for this and (more so) who thought it was a good idea

A lot of people asked for easier rats and a lot of people thought it was a good idea.

The rats are there to put pressure on farmers using fits that promote afk or scrolled client plexing. They're not there to interfere with those people who are there for a reason.

Grenadier Greyback
May Cause Irritation
#12 - 2014-07-23 10:20:50 UTC
Could have atleast added a gap (even 10 seconds) in the perma-jam of ONE cruiser in L2 Missions

https://i.imgur.com/xnZKiON.gif

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-07-23 10:30:28 UTC
Grenadier Greyback wrote:
Could have atleast added a gap (even 10 seconds) in the perma-jam of ONE cruiser in L2 Missions

Welcome to FW Hard Mode, my friend.

Fit ECCM, learn which rats are the jamming ones, and blap those when they come up. It's annoying but works.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Grenadier Greyback
May Cause Irritation
#14 - 2014-07-23 10:48:01 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Grenadier Greyback wrote:
Could have atleast added a gap (even 10 seconds) in the perma-jam of ONE cruiser in L2 Missions

Welcome to FW Hard Mode, my friend.

Fit ECCM, learn which rats are the jamming ones, and blap those when they come up. It's annoying but works.


Oh don't get me wrong, my drones chew them up and I don't have to sacrifice my fit for ECCM vs NPC's. It's just fecking annoying that ONE ship can perma-jam in a L2. I don't care much for missions anyway, only do them for the 1ish hour before I start work :P

https://i.imgur.com/xnZKiON.gif

erg cz
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#15 - 2014-07-23 11:34:38 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
Now you need a ship with decent/good dps and not the poor dps which the Maulus was able to muster. It took forever anyway to kite and kill any pvp boat with a halfway decent tank.


I may be wrong, but if this fit:
[Maulus, Solo PvP Maulus]
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier I
Reactor Control Unit I

Low Frequency Sensor Suppressor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Low Frequency Sensor Suppressor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script

150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Inverted Signal Field Projector I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hobgoblin II x1
Warrior II x4

is able to do 126 DPS at 9 km optimal, how Maulus can be that much weaker in damage output if even Incursus classical fit like this:
[Incursus, Incursus: ScramKite]
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste

1MN Afterburner II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

125mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S
125mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S
125mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Hobgoblin II x1

is able to produce nothing more then 133 DPS with less then 7 km optimal. 135 with Javelin, but your range is like 3 km then...
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#16 - 2014-07-23 15:43:27 UTC
erg cz wrote:
I may be wrong, but if this fit:
[Maulus, Solo PvP Maulus]
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier I
Reactor Control Unit I

Low Frequency Sensor Suppressor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Low Frequency Sensor Suppressor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script

150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Inverted Signal Field Projector I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hobgoblin II x1
Warrior II x4

is able to do 126 DPS at 9 km optimal, how Maulus can be that much weaker in damage output if even Incursus classical fit like this:

Yes if all one ever does is eft. Ugh Might work for some dumb rats but you will have to pvp (it's why you have the point fitted).

In order to long point kite you need some agility, to avoid being slingshotted and to maintain the long point kite advantage while you mwd. Something has to give way in the lows for a nanofiber. I suggest the reactor control unit. In which case do those 150mm still fit?

The long point and mwd means you won't be fighting at 9km (the damps won't save you at that distance, even if effective they won't leave much room for error). In which case your 9km optimal is not being used. Long point kiting is quite possible with the damps. Scram kiting not so much. So replace that 150mm navy antimatter with 125mm navy tungsten.

But whoops, mwd and a human opponent that moves can also present some tracking issues, especially with rails. So find somewhere in that fit for some tracking help. Again, eft damage per a fit doesn't factor in tracking difficulties with a moving and intelligent target.

Pretty soon your theoretical eft boat is no longer. Blink

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

RonPaul Rox
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-07-23 16:10:22 UTC
i fully support the change. rat RNG respawn timers should not determine the result of a 1v1 pvp fight

http://imgur.com/EGjYLSL

Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-07-23 17:27:32 UTC
Still want to be able to fly my LML Kestrel (88 dps), LML Condor, and Rocket Condor again. All around 85dps with level 5 skills and T2 launchers.
CCP basically said it's too bad if you've went for missile skills and you want to fight in FW. Considering how FW should allow newer pilots to take novice plexes, it's very limiting to find out that you can't even take a novice frigate.
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-07-23 17:44:17 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Still want to be able to fly my LML Kestrel (88 dps), LML Condor, and Rocket Condor again. All around 85dps with level 5 skills and T2 launchers.
CCP basically said it's too bad if you've went for missile skills and you want to fight in FW. Considering how FW should allow newer pilots to take novice plexes, it's very limiting to find out that you can't even take a novice frigate.


I'm fine in novice plexes with a 90dps breacher. Smalls are a bit rough though, but doable. Mediums cannot be done.

.

Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2014-07-23 18:10:53 UTC
I can do novice plexes in them. I'm talking about the new players who have 2 months of SP under their belt and don't have the time to put 10 days towards LML II's or something similar. These were the ships that I literally flew for 3 months while I trained BC5 before Odyssey hit. I don't want to see similar new pilots unable to follow the same skill path I did just because of NPC rats.
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