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Crius Issues

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DoToo Foo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#301 - 2014-07-22 22:01:32 UTC
Raven Loonatic wrote:
When I flew out of the force field in a POS that had me set to blue 10 standing, I lost my ship to the control tower. The corp has it set to only shoot if lower than .5 standing. After I lost the ship, I flew back inside the force field in my pod, so the tower shot me down but let me go back inside the bubble anyway.


POS only respect the standings of your (player) corporation, and not you personally.

POS don't shoot pods.

POS forcefield settings are independant of whether they want to shoot you or not.

http://foo-eve.blogspot.com.au/
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#302 - 2014-07-22 22:03:44 UTC
Lady Patricia wrote:
Quote:
The guiding goal with this translation is "no blueprint gets functionally worse" i.e. the materials needed for a single run should be the same or less after the transition


i just compared a former me 8 / pe 2 rorqual bpo with the new one that has me -9% te -14%
you told us the that nothing gets worse, current state is, that it uses quite a lot more raw materials

example:
pre-patch: 40 Capital Construction Parts
post-patch: 44 Capital Construction Parts

it's not the only thing they need more now
i just looked at all the other capitals and they also need moooore parts to get produced

that realy sucks imho, especialy as capitals need quite some time and planning to get built.


Yeah, I complained to Greyscale about this issue last week, and even 2 days ago in the Test Server forums.
His concept of "not functionally worse" varies radically from yours and mine.
kombatant62
International Research Labs Ltd.
#303 - 2014-07-22 22:04:01 UTC  |  Edited by: kombatant62
What happened to reverse engeenering jobs? I'm getting only blueprints, before patch when reverse was failed I got Ram or Decryptor?
I can't find anything about that change in patch note
Fuad Il-Manhous
Restinotia Corp
#304 - 2014-07-22 22:07:26 UTC
Jed Clampett wrote:
Fuad Il-Manhous wrote:
T1 BPC's are not being destroyed during the invention process (in a POS).



New invention process only uses 1 RUN per invention job. Old way used all runs. So now multi-run BPCs are left over until count reaches zero.


I am stupid. Sorry Big smile
Miyazaki Hetoshi
Hetoshi Traders Incorporated
#305 - 2014-07-22 22:07:44 UTC
CCP Contra wrote:
Fixy FixIT wrote:
When installing a job at a POS, the cost of installing the job is being taken from the Corp Master Wallet........

Surely, this cost should come from the member who is installing the job. Even better if it was deducted from the member and given to the Corp Master Wallet as charge for using corp labs.

Currently its given to Secure Commerce Commission.

Is this intentional or is it a bug ?

Regards.


By Design



To be clear.

POS Tax is set to 0.0%

By Design, there is a percentage 'Secure Commerce Commission' Fee added to every job started at a Player Owned Structure?

Where previously there was no Secure Commerce Commission Fee added to every job started at a Player Owned Structure?
Tom Tokila
Doomheim
#306 - 2014-07-22 22:11:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tom Tokila
Researched Leaviathan BPC with ME -8/TE -10 has the same amount of parts needed, and the same time build, as a Leviathan BPO, unresearched. That's simply wrong.
Jed Clampett
Doomheim
#307 - 2014-07-22 22:12:08 UTC
Dareth Astrar wrote:
Kenneth Skybound wrote:
I've noticed an interesting fact about blueprint research costs.

Amazed at people's claims of billions to research BPOs to 10, I checked some of my own and found similarly high numbers - although I couldn't install these jobs because the station had no such research facilities.

That's when it hit me - upon checking facilities that ARE research ready, the cost drops to the expected ranges of values.

...

Systems without a research index are thus reporting at 100% cost for some reason!

And here's my theory as to how. The system index is calculated with regards to the system's job hours divided by all Job hours, all rooted. For a system with 0 activity, you've got the square root of 0. In itself that should be no concern, but it may just be that the code is reading that, wondering what the hell you're on and somehow defaulting to an answer of 1. If not there, SOMEWHERE along the line, it's being sent to a default of 100%.

Perhaps this is linked to the reports of super high costs. As I suppose, if no jobs have been carried out in systems, setting up a starbase there and attempting such jobs will likely encounter this same brick wall, no?

Just a thought.


Sounds like something someone would do, add a default if a logic check resulted in a condition that shouldn't ever occur, in the programmers mind. Really sounds like a sensible point in the right direction sir, well thought. Smile



Yeah sounds like logic error. Default should probably be 10%. I would say 0% except it jobs would be free until 28 day running average could catch up. Actually default should have been to populate 28 days with average EVE rate if no run history existed. That way running or not running jobs would immediately have effect while being buffered by something halfway valid.

But that whole issue looks ripe for EVE style manipulation. Consider all the 1000s of star systems with 80% (counting null) having no industry prior to this and only 5-10% having significant activity. So I expect to see smart POS owners moving POS to 0% fee rate system (no recent activity) every 28 days if all their jobs last less than 28 days. Especially in big NULL alliances. Everything in NULL except final capital assembly could be done starting at 0% fees if you planned system rotation right to leave systems fallow for 28 days and leave after <28 days of industry.
Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#308 - 2014-07-22 22:12:26 UTC
Miyazaki Hetoshi wrote:
CCP Contra wrote:
Fixy FixIT wrote:
When installing a job at a POS, the cost of installing the job is being taken from the Corp Master Wallet........

Surely, this cost should come from the member who is installing the job. Even better if it was deducted from the member and given to the Corp Master Wallet as charge for using corp labs.

Currently its given to Secure Commerce Commission.

Is this intentional or is it a bug ?

Regards.


By Design



To be clear.

POS Tax is set to 0.0%

By Design, there is a percentage 'Secure Commerce Commission' Fee added to every job started at a Player Owned Structure?

Where previously there was no Secure Commerce Commission Fee added to every job started at a Player Owned Structure?


This has been discussed for MONTHS, taking feedback in. It's a mechanic to handle the fact that the previous forcing on location, slots, has been removed. It incentivises decentralisation while teams and facility modifiers do the opposite, creating a rough, dynamic landscape.
Takanuro
Eve Faction Trade Exchange
#309 - 2014-07-22 22:13:14 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Takanuro wrote:
I have some Capital module BPO's and was looking at the interface for copying. I noticed that on the Show Info for the BPO's the Max Runs Per Copy is set as 1 for all that I have looked at.

I don't think this is correct, my capital component prints seem to have gone up to 40 being allowed, doesn't make sense that capital modules have been cut to 1.

Error or intended?


The soft cap is now 30 days of copying, as opposed to 10 copies, 5 runs per copy.
You can run all kinds of combinations and permutations now with making copies.

Bottom line, if you were thinking of making copies for resale, forget it.
That market is now dead, as copying is ridiculously fast compared to yesterday.


Hmm, I'm not querying the 30 day limit, that's basically how it was already. The actual Show Info for the BPO shows a max run per copy in the copying section of 1, so at the moment my only option for is to make X copies of 1 Run, I can't do 1 copy of X Runs.

If I pick something like a Capital Armor Plate print then the UI clearly shows me that I can do 1 copy of 40 Runs, as soon as I choose a Capital Module though it only allows 1 Run per copy.

Yes, we're going to die, but you're coming with us!
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#310 - 2014-07-22 22:15:28 UTC
Miyazaki Hetoshi wrote:

By Design, there is a percentage 'Secure Commerce Commission' Fee added to every job started at a Player Owned Structure?

Where previously there was no Secure Commerce Commission Fee added to every job started at a Player Owned Structure?

yes maybe you should read the countless dev blogs on the design
Miyazaki Hetoshi
Hetoshi Traders Incorporated
#311 - 2014-07-22 22:18:03 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Miyazaki Hetoshi wrote:

By Design, there is a percentage 'Secure Commerce Commission' Fee added to every job started at a Player Owned Structure?

Where previously there was no Secure Commerce Commission Fee added to every job started at a Player Owned Structure?

yes maybe you should read the countless dev blogs on the design


*shrugs* re-reading the devblogs.

Didn't seem very clear, but I see it now.

I thought I had moved to a system where there was very little manufacturing going on. Apparently I was wrong, either that or I have driven up the system usage all by myself.
Prax Q
Mutatis.Mutandis
#312 - 2014-07-22 22:21:25 UTC
Currently unable to access the Market with two of my characters in Delve (each in a different system). My other two alts (one in Jita, and one in Rens) have no problem accessing the Market...
Sorry if this has already been reported.
Edlorna Tinebe
The Elerium Trust
#313 - 2014-07-22 22:24:19 UTC
Koenaika wrote:
Edlorna Tinebe wrote:
Material research costs appear to be inconsistent. I had a bunch of 5/5 gang link blueprints pre-patch, and they're now 9/18 as they should be. I also have some 0/0 blueprints. When I put one of my 9/18 blueprints in to research that last level of ME, the job costs ~300k ISK. But when I put in one of my 0/0 jobs for all 10 levels, the job costs ~5.6 million ISK. But 9 levels of ME only cost 2.6 million ISK.

So for a BPO going from 0 to 10, that tenth level costs 3 million ISK. For a BPO going from 9 to 10, the tenth level only costs 300k. What the dealio?

EDIT:

I just ran a series of one-level research jobs, and the total cost for doing one level at a time is LESS than the cost of doing a single batch job for the same number of levels. The time required to run the research is staying the same, but the costs for a long job are, so far, higher by a factor of 10.

If you're comparing blueprints for different items, you will have different results. The cost for researching all BPOs is tied to the base price of the item that blueprint makes. So even two blueprints that have the same time needed to research can have very different costs -- for example a 400mm armor plate and a heavy missile BPO have the same rank, but the plate will cost like 10 times more to research because a 400mm plate needs 10x the mineral cost to build.

Additionally, costs and time scale up for each level you research.


No, these were BPO's for the same item. Specifically, Armored Warfare - Damage Control.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#314 - 2014-07-22 22:31:17 UTC
Compressed Ore blocks still refer to the BPO for details on how to make them, which list incorrect amounts of the Ore needed.
Rekkr Nordgard
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#315 - 2014-07-22 22:32:22 UTC
Miyazaki Hetoshi wrote:
CCP Contra wrote:
Fixy FixIT wrote:
When installing a job at a POS, the cost of installing the job is being taken from the Corp Master Wallet........

Surely, this cost should come from the member who is installing the job. Even better if it was deducted from the member and given to the Corp Master Wallet as charge for using corp labs.

Currently its given to Secure Commerce Commission.

Is this intentional or is it a bug ?

Regards.


By Design



To be clear.

POS Tax is set to 0.0%

By Design, there is a percentage 'Secure Commerce Commission' Fee added to every job started at a Player Owned Structure?

Where previously there was no Secure Commerce Commission Fee added to every job started at a Player Owned Structure?



Yes, the CCP Devs have made it quite clear in their blogs that if you use a POS then they hate you and want to make your life as difficult and expensive as possible.
Bobbie Sioux
Arax Solutions
#316 - 2014-07-22 22:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobbie Sioux
It has now been 12 hours that I have been unable to deliver finished manufacturing jobs from my POS. The jobs were not started from a container. They were not started from a locked blueprint. I get no error message, no feedback of any kind. Just nothing.

Curiously, these blueprints do not show in the Blueprints tab when the facility is selected, only the ones for jobs that I was able to deliver. For other jobs that are still in progress the blueprints show in the Blueprints tab greyed out.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#317 - 2014-07-22 22:37:49 UTC
Edlorna Tinebe wrote:
Koenaika wrote:
Edlorna Tinebe wrote:
Material research costs appear to be inconsistent. I had a bunch of 5/5 gang link blueprints pre-patch, and they're now 9/18 as they should be. I also have some 0/0 blueprints. When I put one of my 9/18 blueprints in to research that last level of ME, the job costs ~300k ISK. But when I put in one of my 0/0 jobs for all 10 levels, the job costs ~5.6 million ISK. But 9 levels of ME only cost 2.6 million ISK.

So for a BPO going from 0 to 10, that tenth level costs 3 million ISK. For a BPO going from 9 to 10, the tenth level only costs 300k. What the dealio?

EDIT:

I just ran a series of one-level research jobs, and the total cost for doing one level at a time is LESS than the cost of doing a single batch job for the same number of levels. The time required to run the research is staying the same, but the costs for a long job are, so far, higher by a factor of 10.

If you're comparing blueprints for different items, you will have different results. The cost for researching all BPOs is tied to the base price of the item that blueprint makes. So even two blueprints that have the same time needed to research can have very different costs -- for example a 400mm armor plate and a heavy missile BPO have the same rank, but the plate will cost like 10 times more to research because a 400mm plate needs 10x the mineral cost to build.

Additionally, costs and time scale up for each level you research.


No, these were BPO's for the same item. Specifically, Armored Warfare - Damage Control.

@ Koenaika its amazing how little of the post you are responding to you read.

@ Edlorna Tinebe Yes, the single research steps are a lot cheaper due to some weird ccp math issue. I dont believe that they know what they are doing when it comes to this issue but it is significantly cheaper to do single steps all the way to ten then it is to do the same research one step at a time. The total time involved is the same if single or multi run steps.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#318 - 2014-07-22 22:38:44 UTC
Tom Tokila wrote:
Researched Leaviathan BPC with ME -8/TE -10 has the same amount of parts needed, and the same time build, as a Leviathan BPO, unresearched. That's simply wrong.

You are likely looking at the BPO info.

Look at it in the UI.
Elisabeth Jane
Doomheim
#319 - 2014-07-22 22:39:59 UTC
I wish most of you would have been reading the dev blogs before this was released..

1: They want things to cost more.. read this post by a dev
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4805923#post4805923

"Our position on this is that a) we're not using straight market prices to prevent manipulation so their trading volume isn't that relevant, and b) it doesn't really matter what prices *are* so long as they're reasonably stable and within the right order of magnitude, because we're only doing this so that "bigger items cost more to build" and there's zero balance need for the prices to be "accurate" by any particular metric."

2: For those that own a POS or station... they used the argument about EVE being a sandbox and the taxes should not go to NPC when they changed the Custom offices to be player owned.. now they are doing the reverse and taking money from POS and player owned stations and giving to to an NPC...
Grumpy Blonde
lndustrial Solutions
#320 - 2014-07-22 22:43:31 UTC
Zheng'Yi Sao wrote:
Pram Face wrote:
So anyone who wants to use a pos for research, manufacture needs full access to corp wallet.

I cannot see this happening for 99% of non directors.

This will kill pos use


CCP Contra wrote:
Fixy FixIT wrote:
When installing a job at a POS, the cost of installing the job is being taken from the Corp Master Wallet........

Surely, this cost should come from the member who is installing the job. Even better if it was deducted from the member and given to the Corp Master Wallet as charge for using corp labs.

Currently its given to Secure Commerce Commission.

Is this intentional or is it a bug ?

Regards.


By Design



Correct me if I am wrong, but this has always been the case. You assign a couple roles, and give access to part of the corp wallet. This is why the wallet has divisions. Typically, we keep one for just such a function. You do not, and have never needed access to the master wallet.

Its just a patch people, don't be so Crius... LolRoll


Before Crius patch, corp members had to have access to a corp wallet division in order to install a job in corp POS. It did not have to be the master wallet. If master wallet is required now, that should be changed, and the item added to known issues until it is.

Problem is, even if alternate wallet division is allowed, it creates the potential for corp members to spend corp funds without adequate controls. Most corps have too many members to give each a separate industry wallet division, and wouldn't have needed to when corp set POS costs to zero for corp members. Now it appears that many members would be drawing out of the industry wallet division in order to pay SCC tax. I don't see corps allowing this, so member usage of corp POS seems likely to end, or be severely restricted. This would seem to defeat the idea of "cooperative gameplay" (wasn't that the goal of scatter cans?), because won't the work-around be single-player corps, each with their own POS?

1 - SCC tax on corp POS jobs is problematic; if an isk sink is absolutely necessary to ruin things for more people, consider being trendy and and taxing fuel block usage, to save the celestial environment from pollution. Don't tie it to player/job.

2 - Inability to sort blueprints by group (rigs, hybrid charge, frigate ...) has made it much more tedious to work with large quantities of blueprints. This was noted over a month ago in pre-patch observations from Sisi and appears to have been overlooked. Sortable "group" column was useful and should be restored to BP list.

3 - Appreciate that blueprints in POS are now showing up in BP inventory from outside POS, don't think they did that before.

4 - I know you warned us about the increased research times. I still think they stink. Costs seem inordinately high, hope this is something that is likely to correct.

All in all, a very frustrating patch. Maybe it will accomplish some valid goal (please identify one), but mostly it seems to have made POS's more trouble than they are worth.

Ugh