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Rattlesnake or Domi as next lvl 4 mission running ship.
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Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-07-24 21:24:05 UTC
How do you squeeze a prop mod into that fit?
stoicfaux
#22 - 2014-07-24 21:51:01 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
How do you squeeze a prop mod into that fit?

For the missions that require movement, drop the heavy cap and/or downgrade the XLSB (and/or swap to an expensive Gist XL.) More than a few missions can be buffer tanked due to DPS tanking and having lots of shield points.

But, having to fiddle with fittings, especially drone loadouts, is one of the drawbacks to the Rattlesnake.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2014-07-24 23:32:53 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Octavious0506 wrote:
Quote:
"rattle snake has only 50mb Drone bandwidth"
- read the ship bonuses. the two RS sentries do the damage of 5 Domi sentries


Actually if you do the math, the Rattlesnake does the damage of 5.5 sentries. Which would be a 10% real time boost.

Domni: 50% bonus = 5 * 1.5 = 7.5 effective drones
RS: 275% bonus = 2 * 3.75 = 7.5 effective drones (sentry/heavy only)



Yep Domi and Rattler do identical sentry and heavy (including gecko) damage.

Domi has stupidly good drone tracking and optimal and better light/medium drones.

Rattler has an extra 800DPS or so from the launchers and the heavy/sentry drones have way more HP.
Rubishod
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-07-29 11:05:44 UTC
I honestly enjoy the loss of DPS and use a shield nano Ishtar, if only to be able to warp around and get where I need to be faster. With a rattlesnake .... all the waiting .... kills me.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2014-07-29 11:15:09 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
How do you squeeze a prop mod into that fit?

For the missions that require movement, drop the heavy cap and/or downgrade the XLSB (and/or swap to an expensive Gist XL.) More than a few missions can be buffer tanked due to DPS tanking and having lots of shield points.

But, having to fiddle with fittings, especially drone loadouts, is one of the drawbacks to the Rattlesnake.


I dont even bother, I just use a gecko and buffer fit it and add a MWD. Literally never refit and losing the omnis frees up slots quite handily.

>100k ehp buffer with 1500+ dps is MORE than sufficient for all but the worst missions and for those, we have marauders.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#26 - 2014-07-29 19:10:41 UTC
Domi is more efficient if you know you won't fight many BS or BC. Buzzkill I use a mjd domi, it applies better vs elite cruisers and frigs.
NIFTYGetAtMe
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#27 - 2014-07-29 19:55:02 UTC
Rattlesnake.
Jeremy Kamira
#28 - 2014-07-30 03:16:22 UTC
If i remember correctly, doesn't the missile subsystem for the tengu have bonus to Kinetic missiles? Even with resists being a factor wouldn't it still do more damage?
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2014-07-30 03:38:40 UTC
Jeremy Kamira wrote:
If i remember correctly, doesn't the missile subsystem for the tengu have bonus to Kinetic missiles? Even with resists being a factor wouldn't it still do more damage?


Rattler gets 50% to the 5 launchers when using kin or thermal plus the equivalent of 50% max drone damage giving you somewhere between 1200 and 1600 total DPS in most fits.

Tengu is going to be pushing it to get much more than 800 DPS.

The Tengu will be better at applying the damage though.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#30 - 2014-07-30 04:19:47 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Jeremy Kamira wrote:
If i remember correctly, doesn't the missile subsystem for the tengu have bonus to Kinetic missiles? Even with resists being a factor wouldn't it still do more damage?


Rattler gets 50% to the 5 launchers when using kin or thermal plus the equivalent of 50% max drone damage giving you somewhere between 1200 and 1600 total DPS in most fits.

Tengu is going to be pushing it to get much more than 800 DPS.

The Tengu will be better at applying the damage though.


Rattler might not be as good at "applying" damage but it has SO much MORE base damage that well application is damn near good enough. I was volleying angel cruisers with a painter and scourge fury missiles.

Rattler does 868 missile dps with a t2 fit, max skills, and implants, 713 with faction cruise.

a tengu does what 1k dps max with hams, at like 30km at best? with heavies I don't think it does much more than 800. yea... I easily say NO to the tengu. Unless the objective is kill one ship and leave while taking a bunch of fire, then well maybe the tengu is better.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#31 - 2014-07-30 04:48:32 UTC
I got 918.3 from the launchers using faction upgrades and 5% implants.
That is the ingame number and it does match in EFT.
No booster alt.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-07-30 05:50:09 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
I got 918.3 from the launchers using faction upgrades and 5% implants.
That is the ingame number and it does match in EFT.
No booster alt.


How much on a 350m/s 320sig battleship? :)
Val Karan
Knights of the Empire
#33 - 2014-07-30 11:26:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Val Karan
Barton Breau wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
I got 918.3 from the launchers using faction upgrades and 5% implants.
That is the ingame number and it does match in EFT.
No booster alt.


How much on a 350m/s 320sig battleship? :)

Little.

Rattle with t2 cruise is aweful against Angel Battleships for that reason. And it's not much better against regular 400m sigs with slower speeds.

Use faction cruise and 1 target painter, that will apply max dps against any battleship you find in missions.

With maxed skills, implants and 1 tp, t2 just about breaks even in applied dps. 2nd tp will max out dps against some target while moving.
Orbiting battleships are slower and will be hit for higher dps, but due to having 2 weapon systems you really run out of midslots to tank a bunch of orbiting NPC battleships. Just assume approach-speed battleships for all your dps calculations.

The whole 1600dps rattle thing is a bit of a myth. You'll only apply that dps if you bring a targetpainter and webber (on a second ship). That said, with faction missiles it does 1400 - and those actually apply.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-07-30 11:53:33 UTC
Val Karan wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
I got 918.3 from the launchers using faction upgrades and 5% implants.
That is the ingame number and it does match in EFT.
No booster alt.


How much on a 350m/s 320sig battleship? :)

Little.

Rattle with t2 cruise is aweful against Angel Battleships for that reason. And it's not much better against regular 400m sigs with slower speeds.

Use faction cruise and 1 target painter, that will apply max dps against any battleship you find in missions.

With maxed skills, implants and 1 tp, t2 just about breaks even in applied dps. 2nd tp will max out dps against some target while moving.
Orbiting battleships are slower and will be hit for higher dps, but due to having 2 weapon systems you really run out of midslots to tank a bunch of orbiting NPC battleships. Just assume approach-speed battleships for all your dps calculations.

The whole 1600dps rattle thing is a bit of a myth. You'll only apply that dps if you bring a targetpainter and webber (on a second ship). That said, with faction missiles it does 1400 - and those actually apply.

That battleship has much higher sig radius than the explosion radius of fury missiles (with rigors), so where is the issue? Don't they also get signature bloom since they approach with a MWD active? A sig bloom cancels out any issue with speed.
Val Karan
Knights of the Empire
#35 - 2014-07-30 12:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Val Karan
yay.

the forum ate my detailed reply.

short version:
fury:
2tp http://i.imgur.com/89LA3R4.png
1tp http://i.imgur.com/xrZXLjX.png
0tp http://i.imgur.com/44xxVF2.png

navy:
1tp http://i.imgur.com/l8KDDvh.png
0tp http://i.imgur.com/JB2Gr7J.png

kronos 420m sig 255m/s
machariel 350m sig 310m/s

the fit only tanks for 6minutes and that's without a prop module, the buffer is large but applying your dps is still vital in longer missions with continuous incoming dps like blockade.
So, i've come to conclude that before optimal skills for dmg application (signature focusing and 2 tps, i'd rather have 1 tp and, depending on mission type either a prop or tank module. Lazy version = always keep an MJD fitted.

(Please note that DPS in EFT appears to be a little low. I'm not max-skilled, but my volleys hit for maximum dmg with just 1 target painter, when entering the exact speeds to eft shows that i should need a 2nd tp)
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-07-30 13:35:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

That battleship has much higher sig radius than the explosion radius of fury missiles (with rigors), so where is the issue? Don't they also get signature bloom since they approach with a MWD active? A sig bloom cancels out any issue with speed.


The missile damage formula is not that simple, that is why people look at damage graphs.

As for the MWD, are we sure the rats use MWD to double their orbit speed when approaching?

But im not saying it would not simplify things, if they did.

EDIT:

Thanks for engaging in any case, i was concerned that apart from "fit as many rigors as possible and the x type xlarge booster" will be the bulk of the info here :)
Val Karan
Knights of the Empire
#37 - 2014-07-30 13:49:57 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

That battleship has much higher sig radius than the explosion radius of fury missiles (with rigors), so where is the issue? Don't they also get signature bloom since they approach with a MWD active? A sig bloom cancels out any issue with speed.


The missile damage formula is not that simple, that is why people look at damage graphs.

As for the MWD, are we sure the rats use MWD to double their orbit speed when approaching?

But im not saying it would not simplify things, if they did.

Nope, they use afterburners, or missiles would hit them for max damage when they're going at cruise speed.
Basic MWD would x5 their base speed, not double it, too, and we can assume rats adhere to basic rules of eve.

Rats in belts might be using MWDs, though. They're flying much faster.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-07-30 15:17:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaari Inkuran
Barton Breau wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

That battleship has much higher sig radius than the explosion radius of fury missiles (with rigors), so where is the issue? Don't they also get signature bloom since they approach with a MWD active? A sig bloom cancels out any issue with speed.


The missile damage formula is not that simple, that is why people look at damage graphs.


If NPCs don't use MWD, its news to me, I've seen it mentioned here that frigs do, and that's why its so much easier to hit them when they aggro you then when they're sitting at 50km picking their nose with no velocity at first warpin.

Edit: I just wish the overview would show sig radius of the target...

Alright doing a lot of number crunching and a bit of research at chruker.com, I'm starting to think I should use 2 tps and 1 omnilink instead of the other way around, since guns have the nice advantage of near-perfect tracking outside of 40km but missiles always seem to need help. And with angels it seems best just to stick to faction cruises rather than T2 cruises?

Is this common knowledge to stick to faction cruises when facing angels? As I've stated once before I really only have experience with guns, not missiles.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-07-30 16:00:07 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

That battleship has much higher sig radius than the explosion radius of fury missiles (with rigors), so where is the issue? Don't they also get signature bloom since they approach with a MWD active? A sig bloom cancels out any issue with speed.


The missile damage formula is not that simple, that is why people look at damage graphs.


If NPCs don't use MWD, its news to me, I've seen it mentioned here that frigs do, and that's why its so much easier to hit them when they aggro you then when they're sitting at 50km picking their nose with no velocity at first warpin.

Edit: I just wish the overview would show sig radius of the target...


You mean with missiles or guns?
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2014-07-30 16:04:32 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

That battleship has much higher sig radius than the explosion radius of fury missiles (with rigors), so where is the issue? Don't they also get signature bloom since they approach with a MWD active? A sig bloom cancels out any issue with speed.


The missile damage formula is not that simple, that is why people look at damage graphs.


If NPCs don't use MWD, its news to me, I've seen it mentioned here that frigs do, and that's why its so much easier to hit them when they aggro you then when they're sitting at 50km picking their nose with no velocity at first warpin.

Edit: I just wish the overview would show sig radius of the target...


You mean with missiles or guns?

What you quoted is my experience with guns. I have trouble getting anything to hit a frigate until I'm yellow boxed, at which point I can volley each one with a single paladin tach gun all day. Again, this is on first warp-in where angular velocity of the target is near-zero anyway.
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