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Dev blog: EVE Industry - All you want to know

First post First post First post
Author
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#121 - 2014-07-18 17:27:12 UTC
Lee Hyori wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

....hisec industry turns out to be completely resistant to any kind of social interaction with other players...



Which change in crius will help them to work together ?



When the Odyssey expansion was made know it was envisioned that groups of explorers would assist each other with the loot spew. It took awhile but the loot spew is now gone.

As an aside, for those wanting an SP refund, dedicated explorers wanted one too for the changes made to scanning skills. We did not get refunded. Why do you think you will/should?

Hydrostatic Podcast First class listening of all things EVE

Check out the Eve-Prosper show for your market updates!

Udonor
Doomheim
#122 - 2014-07-18 17:27:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Udonor
LOOT DROPS should replace all industry and mining.

Implement skills and chance to kill pilots and leave hulls intact.

Ship fit skills should be the closest this game gets to industry.



CCP is wasting RL time & money on industry code.

95% of people buy EVE subscriptions for PVP!!!

Quit diverting $$$ and time to industry



If necessary keep PVE for extra loot drops but

-- integrate it into PVP fleets (NPC site launched "drones" that you can only give fleet commands to)
-- or as spontaneous attacks (at gates, planets, even rat fleet roams etc )
-- FW sites might stay to provide focus around sovereignty bonus structures



PS -
Idea If CCP and player want an EVE industry game, why not spin it off to its own attached game like DUST? Idea

Then industry can live or die on its own game merits and not leach off PVP subscriptions.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#123 - 2014-07-18 17:28:37 UTC
Udonor wrote:
LOOT DROPS should replace all industry and mining.

Implement skills and chance to kill pilots and leave hulls intact.

Ship fit skills should be the closest this game gets to industry.



CCP is wasting RL time & money on industry code.

95% of people buy EVE subscriptions for PVP!!!

Quit diverting $$$ and time to industry



If necessary keep PVE for extra loot drops but

-- integrate it into PVP fleets
-- or as spontaneous attacks (at gates, planets, even rat fleet roams etc )



PS -
Idea If CCP and player want an EVE industry game, why not spin it off to its own attached game like DUST? Idea

Then industry can live or die on its own game merits and not leach off PVP subscriptions.

[citation needed]
Udonor
Doomheim
#124 - 2014-07-18 17:46:34 UTC
LOL -- Where is your citation that more than 5% came for industry?

I will give you that more than 5% are actually doing industry in EVE -- But not by choice

As-Is EVE forces larger groups to do industry to get capital ships etc.




Promiscuous Female wrote:
Udonor wrote:
LOOT DROPS should replace all industry and mining.

Implement skills and chance to kill pilots and leave hulls intact.

Ship fit skills should be the closest this game gets to industry.



CCP is wasting RL time & money on industry code.

95% of people buy EVE subscriptions for PVP!!!

Quit diverting $$$ and time to industry



If necessary keep PVE for extra loot drops but

-- integrate it into PVP fleets
-- or as spontaneous attacks (at gates, planets, even rat fleet roams etc )



PS -
Idea If CCP and player want an EVE industry game, why not spin it off to its own attached game like DUST? Idea

Then industry can live or die on its own game merits and not leach off PVP subscriptions.

[citation needed]

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#125 - 2014-07-18 17:57:41 UTC
Udonor wrote:
LOL -- Where is your citation that more than 5% came for industry?

I will give you that more than 5% are actually doing industry in EVE -- But not by choice

As-Is EVE forces larger groups to do industry to get capital ships etc.

See: the entirety of highsec
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#126 - 2014-07-18 18:06:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzar Sinak
Udonor wrote:


95% of people buy EVE subscriptions for PVP!!!



Please provide evidence for this claim.

Hydrostatic Podcast First class listening of all things EVE

Check out the Eve-Prosper show for your market updates!

Ezio di Firenze
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#127 - 2014-07-18 18:36:31 UTC
Quote:
After *considerable* discussion, both internally and on the forums, we have decided that we are not going to award any additional compensation for blueprints currently researched past ME/PE 10. There are a lot of things feeding into this decision, including the strong precedent it sets, the fact that no functional value is lost, and the work involved in a one-time compensation deal that could be spent on polishing up the features we're shipping. We understand that some people will be unhappy about this, and we empathize with that, but we have to weigh everyone's interests equally and we believe in this case that the best thing for the game as a whole is to convert blueprints to the new system as previously described but not make any additional changes in this area.


Yeah... good thing I didn't waste my time on getting them higher... O wait! I did.... *******...
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#128 - 2014-07-18 18:48:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmy Zeta
So I only went quickly over all those numbers, I didn't take my time to make any real calculations.
But from this first look, I got to say that if Crius' declared goal was to make industry more intuitive and better accessible for the masses, it might be a spectacular faiure. And I believe that's a good thing.
The more people stay out of industry, the better the supplpy/demand relation, and the healthier the eve-economy as a whole.

just my 2 cents

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.

Pap Uhotih
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2014-07-18 19:14:40 UTC
Udonor wrote:
LOOT DROPS should replace all industry and mining.

Implement skills and chance to kill pilots and leave hulls intact.

Ship fit skills should be the closest this game gets to industry.



CCP is wasting RL time & money on industry code.

95% of people buy EVE subscriptions for PVP!!!

Quit diverting $$$ and time to industry



If necessary keep PVE for extra loot drops but

-- integrate it into PVP fleets (NPC site launched "drones" that you can only give fleet commands to)
-- or as spontaneous attacks (at gates, planets, even rat fleet roams etc )
-- FW sites might stay to provide focus around sovereignty bonus structures



PS -
Idea If CCP and player want an EVE industry game, why not spin it off to its own attached game like DUST? Idea

Then industry can live or die on its own game merits and not leach off PVP subscriptions.


yeah and add a round timer and rename it 'Battlefield 2242: Space ship wars'.
Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#130 - 2014-07-18 20:45:42 UTC
Is there plans to continue to work on Structure cost scaling and add it in a following patch post July 22 or is it scrapped indefinitely?

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Aresti
Black Eclipse Corp
#131 - 2014-07-18 20:52:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Aresti
"Build times are generally rank * 300 seconds."

The effect this appears it will have upon the T2 industry as a whole (BPO/BPC) concerns me, and I don't recall any previous discussion on it (granted, I might have missed it).

Currently some levels of frigates/cruisers take longer to build than others. HACs vs Logistics and AFs vs Intys for example. This change removes that distinction.

More importantly, the time to build T2 hulls from BPCs or BPOs on a whole appears to be vastly increasing due to the rank basis, while module build time appears to be vastly reduced. Focusing just on hulls here, can do another post for ammo/modules if needed. If I've made an error in the calculations somewhere let me know.

This is what it appears the calculation would be post patch, with extraFactor being a multiplier for ammo/capital builds. For the sake of simplicity, all builds are assumed to be in a station, TE at 20%, Industry 5, Adv Indy 5 and 4% implant with no team.

Formula: (rank*300*extraFactor)TE%*Industry Skill*Adv Indy skill*implant = prod time in seconds per run

New Numbers
Frigate: (400*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=70041.6 (1167.36m/19.46h/0.81d, or 37.01 within 30 days)
Destroyer: (600*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=105062.4 (1751.04m/29.18h/1.22d, or 24.67 within 30 days)
Cruiser: (800*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=140083.2 (2334.72m/38.91h/1.62d, or 18.5 within 30 days)
BC: (1000*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=175104 (2918.4m/48.64h/2.03/d or 14.8 within 30 days)
BS: (1200*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=210124.8 (3502.08m/58.37h/2.43d)
JFs: (4000*300*4)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=2801664 (46694.4m/778.24h/32.43d)

For simple comparison's sake, currently a player can build approximately 165 Intys, 102 AFs, 68 Interdictors, 52 Logistics, 25 HACs, 34 Recons or 25 Command ships in 30 days time. Blops are less than 1d16hr.

This is a pretty serious nerf to player productivity for hulls and will require individuals to use 2-3 characters to produce the same as 1 does now, assuming invention and BPC building. A quick look at module production looks like it has been increased by a factor of around 1.8 (1029 light ions before, 1897 after, 275 425mm IIs before, 632 after). Could we have some elaboration on the thoughts and intentions behind this please CCP?
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2014-07-18 21:17:04 UTC
Aresti- Ships are getting a significant build time increase and modules are getting an even larger (relative) build time decrease. The whole rank concept arose out of a discussion regarding normalizing manufacture and invnetion time so characters would generally fill all of their slots when doing T2. Why exactly everything was jumbled up I have no idea.

You're thinking about the problem backwards however. Hulls aren't being nerfed, they're being significantly buffed. They take longer to get to market, which means that there is less supply than there is demand. This increases the global 'work available' and also increases the amount you will earn as an industy person.

Other added benefits mean you don't have to micro-manage your installs as frequently.

The problem is that while hulls all got a big buff, modules were crushed under the changes having their production times quartered or more.

At the same time barriers were removed to the system and a big influx of new builders is coming to drive prices down.





Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation
Care Factor
#133 - 2014-07-18 22:09:09 UTC
Throwaway Sam Atild wrote:
Aresti- Ships are getting a significant build time increase and modules are getting an even larger (relative) build time decrease. The whole rank concept arose out of a discussion regarding normalizing manufacture and invnetion time so characters would generally fill all of their slots when doing T2. Why exactly everything was jumbled up I have no idea.

You're thinking about the problem backwards however. Hulls aren't being nerfed, they're being significantly buffed. They take longer to get to market, which means that there is less supply than there is demand. This increases the global 'work available' and also increases the amount you will earn as an industy person.

Other added benefits mean you don't have to micro-manage your installs as frequently.

The problem is that while hulls all got a big buff, modules were crushed under the changes having their production times quartered or more.

At the same time barriers were removed to the system and a big influx of new builders is coming to drive prices down.







As a not-too-into-building-ships-and-modules kind of guy, reading through this makes me think "it makes sense."

I don't want to pay 1/3 to 1/2 the total price of my fit in high slot modules and tank modules. Thinking of a T1 cruiser hull w/ T2 guns/Tank, my total cost might be roughly 20M (10-12 for the hull, the rest for modules/rigs). I would rather the ratio be 14-16 for the hull, and 5M for the mods rigs.

I'd say this is a good thing.

Cedric

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#134 - 2014-07-18 22:29:37 UTC
Aresti wrote:
"Build times are generally rank * 300 seconds."

The effect this appears it will have upon the T2 industry as a whole (BPO/BPC) concerns me, and I don't recall any previous discussion on it (granted, I might have missed it).

Currently some levels of frigates/cruisers take longer to build than others. HACs vs Logistics and AFs vs Intys for example. This change removes that distinction.

More importantly, the time to build T2 hulls from BPCs or BPOs on a whole appears to be vastly increasing due to the rank basis, while module build time appears to be vastly reduced. Focusing just on hulls here, can do another post for ammo/modules if needed. If I've made an error in the calculations somewhere let me know.

This is what it appears the calculation would be post patch, with extraFactor being a multiplier for ammo/capital builds. For the sake of simplicity, all builds are assumed to be in a station, TE at 20%, Industry 5, Adv Indy 5 and 4% implant with no team.

Formula: (rank*300*extraFactor)TE%*Industry Skill*Adv Indy skill*implant = prod time in seconds per run

New Numbers
Frigate: (400*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=70041.6 (1167.36m/19.46h/0.81d, or 37.01 within 30 days)
Destroyer: (600*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=105062.4 (1751.04m/29.18h/1.22d, or 24.67 within 30 days)
Cruiser: (800*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=140083.2 (2334.72m/38.91h/1.62d, or 18.5 within 30 days)
BC: (1000*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=175104 (2918.4m/48.64h/2.03/d or 14.8 within 30 days)
BS: (1200*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=210124.8 (3502.08m/58.37h/2.43d)
JFs: (4000*300*4)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=2801664 (46694.4m/778.24h/32.43d)

For simple comparison's sake, currently a player can build approximately 165 Intys, 102 AFs, 68 Interdictors, 52 Logistics, 25 HACs, 34 Recons or 25 Command ships in 30 days time. Blops are less than 1d16hr.

This is a pretty serious nerf to player productivity for hulls and will require individuals to use 2-3 characters to produce the same as 1 does now, assuming invention and BPC building. A quick look at module production looks like it has been increased by a factor of around 1.8 (1029 light ions before, 1897 after, 275 425mm IIs before, 632 after). Could we have some elaboration on the thoughts and intentions behind this please CCP?



There's *extensive* discussion with what's going on with the data here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=345753&find=unread

The bottom line though is that we have attempted, hopefully with a decent degree of success, to ensure that throughput for invented items per character is roughly the same before and after, once you build in all the various bonuses available (see starbase bonuses, for example). If there's any significant mismatches post-release, let us know and we'll make adjustments!
El Zylcho
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2014-07-18 23:13:06 UTC
Are adjustments being made to costs to buy ships with LP so LP is essentially taxed in the same way built items are? Using LP, especially FW LP, seems like it automatically enjoys a greater purchase power for the same amount of effort because everything built (ships etc) is becoming more expensive to produce.
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#136 - 2014-07-18 23:14:16 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

1) Yes.
2) Upwards, per unit. Acolyte II now requires 2 of most things (not the T1 drone obviously)


Yay test server up.

Acolyte II requires 1 of most things, not 2..
On test server that is.
Bessa Miros
#137 - 2014-07-18 23:56:55 UTC
On the test server every system seems to have completely red (maxed) fees on manufacturing, with the exception of a few lo sec systems (still they are at 40-60% maxed).

Is this intentional? If everywhere is maxed then we'll all build in hubs; Jita, Amarr. Won't we?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#138 - 2014-07-18 23:57:24 UTC
Quote:
This index is then used in conjunction with job value to create a base cost....

For copying and ME/TE research, this is fairly straightforward: it's 2% of the inputs for a job using that blueprint.


Each level of ME research reduces the materials required (the cost) to build the end product

So the base cost per level for ME research can (in the right circumstances) reduce with each level ?

Or; Are base costs for research based on a 0 ME / 0 TE BPO?

- - - -
If there is only a small amount (less than 100) of people researching a specialized / low demand item, the costs will be higher per item than they would be if 1000's of people are building the same item?

EG;
If 2 players are researching the same (limited demand) item in the same location, the costs will be extremely high as they could make up 100% of the index for that item.

- - - -
How will the price index work?

Where will "job value" be drawn from to create, job value base cost?
Anything related to market price can't be used as it can (and would be) be easily manipulated. So what will define "job value".

- - - -
Quote:
I.e., where:

system_activity_job_hours is the total duration of all jobs of that activity type in that system over the last 28 days, and:

global_activity_job_hours is the total duration of all jobs of that activity type in the universe over the last 28 day, and:

system_activity_index is the index we’re creating, the formula is:

Isn't this a nerf to Nulsec Manufacturing?
Those manufacturing in Nulsec for an alliance will incur higher charges because they are building in volume and have additional hauling charges (50% more fuel for JF) for materials they (due to location) are unable to produce.

Building 10 Ishtars in highsec is going to be cheaper than building them in nul.
In highsec you can find all materials you will need in 1 place.
To build them in nul, you need to import materials you're unable to produce, yet your base price is set in part by the global index which includes the highsec manufacturers.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Pandorium9
Pandorium Prime
The CodeX Alliance
#139 - 2014-07-19 00:01:29 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:


Some of the patch notes are in black text and thus need highlighting to read.


Just bad formatting, people have been poked.


You may want to get them to fix the Skills section too.

  • Supply Chain Management and Scientific Networking skills have been overhauledThe Material Efficiency skill is being renamed Advanced Industry, and now reduces manufacturing time by 1% per levelThe Refining skill has been renamed Reprocessing. This skill bonus has been increased from 2% to 3% per level

  • Should be:

  • Supply Chain Management and Scientific Networking skills have been overhauled.

  • The Material Efficiency skill is being renamed Advanced Industry, and now reduces manufacturing time by 1% per level.

  • The Refining skill has been renamed Reprocessing. This skill bonus has been increased from 2% to 3% per level.

  • Sir HyperChrist
    Persnickety Pilots
    #140 - 2014-07-19 00:41:48 UTC
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    Aresti wrote:
    "Build times are generally rank * 300 seconds."

    The effect this appears it will have upon the T2 industry as a whole (BPO/BPC) concerns me, and I don't recall any previous discussion on it (granted, I might have missed it).

    Currently some levels of frigates/cruisers take longer to build than others. HACs vs Logistics and AFs vs Intys for example. This change removes that distinction.

    More importantly, the time to build T2 hulls from BPCs or BPOs on a whole appears to be vastly increasing due to the rank basis, while module build time appears to be vastly reduced. Focusing just on hulls here, can do another post for ammo/modules if needed. If I've made an error in the calculations somewhere let me know.

    This is what it appears the calculation would be post patch, with extraFactor being a multiplier for ammo/capital builds. For the sake of simplicity, all builds are assumed to be in a station, TE at 20%, Industry 5, Adv Indy 5 and 4% implant with no team.

    Formula: (rank*300*extraFactor)TE%*Industry Skill*Adv Indy skill*implant = prod time in seconds per run

    New Numbers
    Frigate: (400*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=70041.6 (1167.36m/19.46h/0.81d, or 37.01 within 30 days)
    Destroyer: (600*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=105062.4 (1751.04m/29.18h/1.22d, or 24.67 within 30 days)
    Cruiser: (800*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=140083.2 (2334.72m/38.91h/1.62d, or 18.5 within 30 days)
    BC: (1000*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=175104 (2918.4m/48.64h/2.03/d or 14.8 within 30 days)
    BS: (1200*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=210124.8 (3502.08m/58.37h/2.43d)
    JFs: (4000*300*4)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=2801664 (46694.4m/778.24h/32.43d)

    For simple comparison's sake, currently a player can build approximately 165 Intys, 102 AFs, 68 Interdictors, 52 Logistics, 25 HACs, 34 Recons or 25 Command ships in 30 days time. Blops are less than 1d16hr.

    This is a pretty serious nerf to player productivity for hulls and will require individuals to use 2-3 characters to produce the same as 1 does now, assuming invention and BPC building. A quick look at module production looks like it has been increased by a factor of around 1.8 (1029 light ions before, 1897 after, 275 425mm IIs before, 632 after). Could we have some elaboration on the thoughts and intentions behind this please CCP?



    There's *extensive* discussion with what's going on with the data here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=345753&find=unread

    The bottom line though is that we have attempted, hopefully with a decent degree of success, to ensure that throughput for invented items per character is roughly the same before and after, once you build in all the various bonuses available (see starbase bonuses, for example). If there's any significant mismatches post-release, let us know and we'll make adjustments!


    I second this.
    right now a Prorator bpo builds 51 units per month in a station, after patch only 18
    a small T2 drone bpo builds 4125 units in a station, over 5500 at a pos (remotely), after patch only 2960
    a medium T2 drone bpo is now at 2800 unites at a pos, which will drop to1480 in station (slightly more by using bpc's)
    a large T2 drone now gives 1880 units at a pos. Only986 will remain after patch

    A T2 BPO nerf has been long in the coming, but this patch they get nerfed twice: 50% more materials and 2 to 3 times less units produced for the examples above. And no transparency about all this before the patchnotes. Is this truly what you want?