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Out of Pod Experience

 
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You are not so normal after all - a look at what makes you strange

Author
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-07-13 01:33:04 UTC
More on topic (though Ms. Dusette is arguably the topic of EVE-O), evolution is all about survival, but not necessarily happiness.

Humans are complicated creatures.

I learned a lot from my cat. He's furry, fat, and a bit dumb. But when I look into his lazy eyes, I see total serenity.

I probably should put on some weight, stop shaving and think much less (except about Ms. Dusette).

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-07-13 06:23:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Khergit Deserters wrote:
But, our actual body strength is less than that of a chimpanzee, which has body mass of maybe half a humans. In other words, a chimpanzee can lift a heavier weight than an athletic male human. Apparently while evolving, our species traded some muscle strength for IQ. It's recently been found that some the concentration of a certain enzyme has a correlation to IQ vs. body strength. Generally, individuals with higher concentrations of it tend to have higher IQs and lower body strength. And vice versa. Lower concentrations tend to have lower IQs and higher body strength. Thus, the weakling nerd/dumb jock stereotype seems to have some basis in truth.

Source: A recent article in The Economist, reporting on an article or Nature or Science probably. I could be arsed to try to find it, but not arsed enough to actually find it. Ugh
sure, but the thing is, we don't need more body strength since we can create more refined tools that can "multiply" our strength. The evolution of the throwing spear is such an example: from a crude sharpened stick to assault rifle in 20.000 years? or so.Lol

so no, it's not a matter of enzimes imho. it's more a matter of lazyness: having higher IQ allows us to create tools to make heavy work lighter, thus requiring less muscles.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Graygor
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-07-13 06:52:14 UTC
Grimpak wrote:

in sum, if an alien came to visit us, he would be horrified by a savage, resilient species that drinks something akin to paint thinner in an hourly basis to keep itself alive, and adds toxic plants to meat that we hunt and kill with extreme efficiency because it tastes better.


I see you too have been to Russia. P

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Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-07-13 07:40:59 UTC
Reaver, I agree that there are a lot of evolutionary inefficiencies in the human body.. but I think you've ignored a big reason why alien species tend to look like humans in so many sci fi stories (ignoring lack of author imagination).

For readers it's going to be very difficult to identify with a gelatinous 15-eyed blob, or a 12.5 tentacled bat-wing-eared howler monkey. Making these aliens human allow the author to convey emotions and concepts that can easily be understood and empathized.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Matilda Cecilia Fock
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2014-07-13 08:26:13 UTC
Now, if you want to think about a weird feature of human, just think about all the fuss our species does about feeding the younger ones... P

Remember: the simplest mammals (platypuses) just ooze milk through their skin; they don't even have a functional nipple.

On the opposite end, a certain primate stores fat and a reinforced ligament system in order to transform their milk producers into massive, cumbersome and tantalizing (to their males) appendages.

Those appendages are so tantalizing, that when one of our serious and smart males figured a name to define animals who feed their younger with milk, he used the word specific to human breast (mamma) rather than the one designing any breast (uber).

Thus, Linneo literally named our milk companions as "animals with boobs like women" (mammalia). That's the power of boobs over the brain! Lol

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-07-13 10:09:03 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Reaver, I agree that there are a lot of evolutionary inefficiencies in the human body.. but I think you've ignored a big reason why alien species tend to look like humans in so many sci fi stories (ignoring lack of author imagination).

For readers it's going to be very difficult to identify with a gelatinous 15-eyed blob, or a 12.5 tentacled bat-wing-eared howler monkey. Making these aliens human allow the author to convey emotions and concepts that can easily be understood and empathized.
I think peoples' general inability to empathize with something that has an alien emotional system shows a general lack of ability among humans to draw parallels between situational needs with specific innate characteristics in order to construct a temperamental template to better understand a creatures' thoughts and feelings. So most people assume that the things that are important to an alien creature are the same as what is important to a human, even when it's rather obvious otherwise.

Now I suspect this is something most humans can easily do, but we merely train ourselves out of it at a young age by not spending enough time studying creatures who think differently than we do and have different needs. It seems to me that children are able to empathize with strange beings and they lose that talent when they don't use it enough.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-07-13 16:11:48 UTC
Graygor wrote:
Grimpak wrote:

in sum, if an alien came to visit us, he would be horrified by a savage, resilient species that drinks something akin to paint thinner in an hourly basis to keep itself alive, and adds toxic plants to meat that we hunt and kill with extreme efficiency because it tastes better.


I see you too have been to Russia. P

russia is the place aliens tell to their offspring in children's horror story: "eat your space brocolli, or russians will take you to russia!"

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#28 - 2014-07-13 16:26:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Quote:
we chase our prey till they get tired


I dont think so, we are using 4 wheels more then ever. And prey does not get tired, it is slaughtered standing politely.

What you wrote, is a primitive hunting technique, so primitive it does not use anything but legs and sharp flint. Predecessors of human could hunt in that way, Homo Erectus probably was able to do that.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-07-13 16:50:11 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Quote:
we chase our prey till they get tired


I dont think so, we are using 4 wheels more then ever. And prey does not get tired, it is slaughtered standing politely.

What you wrote, is a primitive hunting technique, so primitive it does not use anything but legs and sharp flint. Predecessors of human could hunt in that way, Homo Erectus probably was able to do that.

modernizations aside, we could still do it.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#30 - 2014-07-13 17:07:17 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Quote:
we chase our prey till they get tired


I dont think so, we are using 4 wheels more then ever. And prey does not get tired, it is slaughtered standing politely.

What you wrote, is a primitive hunting technique, so primitive it does not use anything but legs and sharp flint. Predecessors of human could hunt in that way, Homo Erectus probably was able to do that.

modernizations aside, we could still do it.


Well, this are the people that are using it.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#31 - 2014-07-13 17:29:19 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Reaver, I agree that there are a lot of evolutionary inefficiencies in the human body.. but I think you've ignored a big reason why alien species tend to look like humans in so many sci fi stories (ignoring lack of author imagination).

For readers it's going to be very difficult to identify with a gelatinous 15-eyed blob, or a 12.5 tentacled bat-wing-eared howler monkey. Making these aliens human allow the author to convey emotions and concepts that can easily be understood and empathized.
I think peoples' general inability to empathize with something that has an alien emotional system shows a general lack of ability among humans to draw parallels between situational needs with specific innate characteristics in order to construct a temperamental template to better understand a creatures' thoughts and feelings. So most people assume that the things that are important to an alien creature are the same as what is important to a human, even when it's rather obvious otherwise.

Now I suspect this is something most humans can easily do, but we merely train ourselves out of it at a young age by not spending enough time studying creatures who think differently than we do and have different needs. It seems to me that children are able to empathize with strange beings and they lose that talent when they don't use it enough.


People lack empathy for other people in general...
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-07-13 18:36:01 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Quote:
we chase our prey till they get tired


I dont think so, we are using 4 wheels more then ever. And prey does not get tired, it is slaughtered standing politely.

What you wrote, is a primitive hunting technique, so primitive it does not use anything but legs and sharp flint. Predecessors of human could hunt in that way, Homo Erectus probably was able to do that.

modernizations aside, we could still do it.


Well, this are the people that are using it.

there ya go, how we hunted in ye olde days.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-07-13 23:54:43 UTC
I watched that video and couldn't help thinking that the Kudu didn't stand a chance against our hero Karoe. At the end, the Kudu can't even lift its head to cower, and Karoe just walks up standing straight and finishes it off.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#34 - 2014-07-14 07:19:08 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Quote:
we chase our prey till they get tired


I dont think so, we are using 4 wheels more then ever. And prey does not get tired, it is slaughtered standing politely.

What you wrote, is a primitive hunting technique, so primitive it does not use anything but legs and sharp flint. Predecessors of human could hunt in that way, Homo Erectus probably was able to do that.

modernizations aside, we could still do it.


Well, this are the people that are using it.

there ya go, how we hunted in ye olde days.


Still, there are easier methods to hunt. But you need to socialize with others to do them. There are easier ways to hunt bigger animals, like elephants. You just need a lot of people with spears. The elephant could be a problem to find, gues why, they are so easy to hunt. Pirate
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-07-14 08:51:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Riyria Twinpeaks
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
[...]

Now I suspect this is something most humans can easily do, but we merely train ourselves out of it at a young age by not spending enough time studying creatures who think differently than we do and have different needs. It seems to me that children are able to empathize with strange beings and they lose that talent when they don't use it enough.


I always thought it's the other way round. That children need to learn to empathize with anything and usually only learn to do so with humans and pets (and by extension other animals maybe).

The key to empathizing is to first understand when someone feels pain or uncomfortable etc.
I think children need to learn this by experiencing pain themselves and observing similar reactions to theirs in others.

This way they learn: "If I do this, then that person feels as bad as I did back then when it happened to me, too"
And also that things which they themselves don't mind might make others feel bad.

If we can't understand or "read" the reactions of others well, then we start to fall back to the "what if that happened to me" thing.
But the larger the difference between us and the "empathy target" is, the less reliable this all gets. We can't intuitively gauge what a certain reaction means and we can't assume they feel like we would in their situation.

So basically I disagree here with you: We can learn empathy with alien creatures by getting to know them, but it's not something we can do from the start.

A kid idly plucking the wings from a dragonfly it caught doesn't do so to cause harm, but because it has no concept that it harms this interesting and strange moving object.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-07-14 09:26:28 UTC
What I meant was that kids can pick up on it much more easily. A child who has learned empathy for humans only recently will empathize with non-human things, even sometimes non-living things. The child later learns to suppress such empathy, and their empathic ability is narrowed.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-07-14 10:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Still, there are easier methods to hunt. But you need to socialize with others to do them. There are easier ways to hunt bigger animals, like elephants. You just need a lot of people with spears. The elephant could be a problem to find, gues why, they are so easy to hunt. Pirate

ah yes, things get easier with numbers, but then you hit the barrier called "diminished returns", and then you're forced to hunt more and more and you'll kill all the prey in the area.

maybe that's why our ancestors decided to raise cattle instead hunting itP

still, small hunting parties = more prey available = less risk of resource depletion.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#38 - 2014-07-14 10:58:50 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Still, there are easier methods to hunt. But you need to socialize with others to do them. There are easier ways to hunt bigger animals, like elephants. You just need a lot of people with spears. The elephant could be a problem to find, gues why, they are so easy to hunt. Pirate

ah yes, things get easier with numbers, but then you hit the barrier called "diminished returns", and then you're forced to hunt more and more and you'll kill all the prey in the area.

maybe that's why our ancestors decided to raise cattle instead hunting itP

still, small hunting parties = more prey available = less risk of resource depletion.


Even less risk if you plant something and go hunting somewhere else, when you get back you will take the fruits from the trees and bushes. Cool
Random McNally
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#39 - 2014-07-14 11:38:40 UTC
Khergit Deserters wrote:
But, our actual body strength is less than that of a chimpanzee, which has body mass of maybe half a humans. In other words, a chimpanzee can lift a heavier weight than an athletic male human. Apparently while evolving, our species traded some muscle strength for IQ. It's recently been found that some the concentration of a certain enzyme has a correlation to IQ vs. body strength. Generally, individuals with higher concentrations of it tend to have higher IQs and lower body strength. And vice versa. Lower concentrations tend to have lower IQs and higher body strength. Thus, the weakling nerd/dumb jock stereotype seems to have some basis in truth.

Source: A recent article in The Economist, reporting on an article or Nature or Science probably. I could be arsed to try to find it, but not arsed enough to actually find it. Ugh

Did we actually lose muscle mass, or did we only lose the ability to access it at will?

We've all heard stories of the mother who lifted a car to save her children. I personally, lifted a homemade snowmobile trailer, with two fully loaded and fueled snowmobiles, that had pinned my father underneath. I went back later and could not budge it. To get my father out, I lifted the trailer nearly a foot off the ground.

That was when I was about 13.

Our true physical strength requires a hormonal cocktail that would probably not suit us well using all the time.

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Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#40 - 2014-07-14 12:07:36 UTC
Random McNally wrote:
Khergit Deserters wrote:
But, our actual body strength is less than that of a chimpanzee, which has body mass of maybe half a humans. In other words, a chimpanzee can lift a heavier weight than an athletic male human. Apparently while evolving, our species traded some muscle strength for IQ. It's recently been found that some the concentration of a certain enzyme has a correlation to IQ vs. body strength. Generally, individuals with higher concentrations of it tend to have higher IQs and lower body strength. And vice versa. Lower concentrations tend to have lower IQs and higher body strength. Thus, the weakling nerd/dumb jock stereotype seems to have some basis in truth.

Source: A recent article in The Economist, reporting on an article or Nature or Science probably. I could be arsed to try to find it, but not arsed enough to actually find it. Ugh

Did we actually lose muscle mass, or did we only lose the ability to access it at will?

We've all heard stories of the mother who lifted a car to save her children. I personally, lifted a homemade snowmobile trailer, with two fully loaded and fueled snowmobiles, that had pinned my father underneath. I went back later and could not budge it. To get my father out, I lifted the trailer nearly a foot off the ground.

That was when I was about 13.

Our true physical strength requires a hormonal cocktail that would probably not suit us well using all the time.


Without a proper cause all the strenght you have would be useless and wastefull.