Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Just because it was fine for You, you assume it's fine for everyone. Yeah ok, that makes sense.

However, then we come back to those numbers 50/40/10.
Obviously you'd fall in the 10%. I guess you weren't a good gauge of player sentiment after all.

And then you blithely ignore the rest of my post where I point out that not only I coped, but the entire alliance did. Not one person quit because of wars or awoxing. Complaints? Sure, new players who had literally all of their SP in mining and industry complained but they didn't quit. Likely because they had supportive corp members.

And there's the discrepancy that you're looking for. A bad social circle leads to the majority of new players quitting. A good social circle leads to the majority of players staying. Outside influences, such as awoxing, war declarations, and suicide ganks only emphasize the problems that bad social environments create, they do not create the problems themselves.

The stereotyping among Eve players is always so spectacularly self-aggrandizing. Thank you for openly admitting to belonging to that FUD crowd I was referring to earlier.

It doesn't take much effort at all to completely shut down an awoxer, nor is it hard to turn the tables on them and relieve them of their ship. The only easy kills they get are afk miners and people who just randomly fleet up with other people they don't know because Green.

"Awoxing" has been a thing since MMO's have existed. In UO PKers would just poison cloud everyone in the middle of a tough PvE fight and TP off to a nearby safe point. In Everquest people would get really brutal, pulling an entire zone of monsters down on your head in an area where they knew your corpses would glitch through the ground and all of your gear would be lost, causing everyone to lose months of hard work. Hell, I used to play a text-based MMO called Gemstone III back in the day. Guild members would lay low and roleplay their way through months of personal interaction for the chance to set up the ultimate story of betrayal and assassination, in a game with a random chance of permadeath, in a world that will forever define the word "grind" for me in the context of MMO's.

You know what my issue with Awoxers is? It's too easy for them to hide from retribution. They drop to an NPC corp and sit in high sec and suddenly no one can retaliate against them. That's the only "easy" part of awoxing, is the fact that you can't hunt them down. If I were to ask for one change to be made on Awoxing it's that any corp member that kills another corp member gives kill rights to the entire corporation for the standard 30 days.

And yes, it is possible for a corporation to get kill rights. Grab a noob ship and go shoot a random POCO in high sec if you want to see for yourself.

Means precisely nothing.



That, however, does. There is no reason to not have the ability to freely shoot a corp member. Eve is about giving players the freedom of choice, and one of the many decisions a player can make is deciding that their current bedfellows have been rubbing them the wrong way and that a good podding is in order.

Do people take advantage of this? Sure, but no more than they take advantage of everything else in Eve. If you think random people who you thought you were allied with attacking you is annoying just wait until you find out how obnoxious human beings can be when they think that they are protected from any sort of retaliation by being an utter passive-aggressive twit. Did you read that part about EQ? Non-PvP servers. The more obstacles you put in someone's path of making a choice, the more ways they find to navigate around that obstacle.

Getting flagged for shooting a corpie? Great, I'll just wait until I have corpmates or fleetmates repping me, so that the logi gets flagged, along with anyone else that was being repped in the chain. If I was an awoxer I'd know plenty of people who enjoy the same activities I do, so there'd be plenty of people waiting for that flashing yellow box when it happens. You just created a way for an awoxer to wipe an entire fleet of friendlies with one shot.

There are more ways to exploit getting flagged by attacking corp members than there are to exploit not getting flagged. People mis-target in fleets constantly, accidentally shoot or smartbomb each others' drones, etc... Incursion groups would literally fall out of their chairs and have a communal spastic fit if this was announced.

There is no reason to flag them as suspect or criminal when an LE flag will take care of the neutral logi without potentially opening everyone up to outside engagement.

Who didn't learn about awoxing the first time they turned in an app for a corporation? It's the first thing you hear about when you start wondering why some corps ask for API keys, and the answer can be found literally anywhere or explained by anyone. There is no way that is hidden knowledge. If it is, it is the worst kept secret in all of Eve history.

Awoxing is not a free pass to begin with. It is a mutual risk, but like you said one that is taken by people who're too cheap to suicide gank. It's not until they drop to an NPC corp that they are safe. I already linked the New Player FAQ which clearly explains that PvP can happen anywhere, at any time, from anyone. Hell, with high sec battle procurers becoming all the rage Awoxers may start becoming a rare breed. I really don't understand why there aren't honeypot corps out there that accept awoxers, bait them and do the deed themselves. Even easier than Awoxing, the odds will always be in your favor.

They're also the easiest PvP to avoid. You get as much free intel on them as they do on you, and once they reveal themselves (which they more often then not fail on their first attempt, from my experience. I get the feeling they do it because they're just plain bad at PvP) they have the choice of logging off in space and hoping you don't send a corp-wide evemail, (Just.... Yeah... Contemplate the odds of that for a moment.) running around trying to catch corp members who now know they are a threat (imagine what has to happen in order for them to be successful at this, or better yet, what has to NOT happen.) or dock up and get kicked from corp/leave corp voluntarily.

And it doesn't just stop there. Try and awox the wrong corp and you will have people stalking you for weeks, notifying every corp you join before you even have a chance to make a move on anyone. This is why awox characters are recycled/sold so much. A couple shots at it and you're being shut down as soon as peoples' watch list updates with your new information. They already have to work for their easy kills in a way, it's just work created after the fact, not before.

Taking away an option that has the opportunity to create interesting gameplay for superficial benefits is never a good idea. And I'm not saying it's a case of HTFU, that was never a good term to begin with. The problem stems from people being led to believe that it cannot, should not, or will not happen and then having that expectation blown. This problem is created solely by the players.

And that, is what the bear philosophy, whether you're a carebear or a nullbear, boils down to:

rejection of risk.

Without risk, you remove literally half of what EVE is about, and half of EVE isn't an EVE that's worth playing in my opinion. I feel pretty secure in adding that I believe a majority of players who have actually left highsec for any substantial amount of time understands that the game revolves around a fairly well designed system of risk vs reward, and want it to stay that way.

I have searched through high sec corp recruitment advertisements with various filters on size and activity (only english language however).

Seven of these corps said on their advertisements that they did not take applications from trial accounts, chars less than 60 days old or less than 15mil sp.

Sent out the following mail to each:


And got the following replies:

There is already hardly any risk of being Awoxed, and a whole lot of unnecessary fear about it happening. There is no reason to "shift" any risk which is just about as large of a crock of dung as I've ever heard. Awoxers only get to do their deed in an environment where corp members are not acting like corp members. They're off solo in a mine field 20 jumps away, or blitzing missions with a window covering up corp chat, and completely ignoring the fact that they joined the corporation so that if events like this do happen, they've got backup.

Awoxers are a scared bunch. I haven't seen one with enough sand to make a move on a corpie unless they are the only two corpmates in the constellation. As soon as someone fits up in a PvP ship and comes looking for them they're either running or logging. There is hardly any risk posed by Awoxers, and they're only as lazy as their prey. People make it easy for them so they get easy kills. And if you ask them, this is typically why they do it. They think it's hilarious that people get so lazy and complacent, and then flip a table when their complacency costs them a ship.

Prove to me there is something to be worried about in the first place, and then you can try to come up with a reasonable discussion about whether or not it is a problem and if it should be fixed.

You talk of rejection of risk. Well who is trying to lower their risk more? The Awoxer or the carebear?

The whole reason corp members have the ability to shoot each other is so they can actually practice PvP without Concord interference. With the new dueling mechanics that ability is no longer needed. If corp member A wished to shoot corp member B, then he can send them a duel request and they can go to town on each other.

Awoxers are abusing the old mechanic simply for easy kills and low risk. Not to mention an Awoxer can easily keep from being kicked from the corp by logging off in space. So basically one experienced guy can shut down an entire newb indy mining corp who has no idea about the mechanic. Awoxing is the lowest form of PvP in the game. I can see ganking. Those guys are taking a risk. They kill you, Concord kills them, and they take a sec status hit. Awoxers are just being risk-averse pvpers.


Bottomline: Once Dueling was introduced, the ability to shoot corp members freely became unneeded.

Now if someone can explain to me why it is needed, other than it lowers the risk to carebears in highsec, please tell my why.

That was never why it was allowed in the first place... Stop deluding yourself.

It was allowed because CCP thought for a moment and said "You know what would be great? Giving players the option to turn against their allies, because this creates gameplay opportunities."

Saying that Awoxing was a fluke and is no longer needed because of an unrelated mechanic that was introduced later is like saying corp theft is a fluke, spying is a fluke and high sec war decs were a fluke. It was an intentional decision by CCP who understood fully the consequences of making it a viable option.

Do not try to play it off like something that just slipped through the cracks and just needs a little patching up now that times have changed. That is not now nor has it ever been the reality of the situation.

Oh, and just to be clear, CCP thought Awoxing was such a horrible design flaw they allowed it into Dust 514 too. Expect Legion to follow suit.