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Mittani: Greifers drive away new players

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Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#401 - 2014-07-15 02:11:53 UTC
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:

So all those PVE players should just stay in NPC corps because of a bad game mechanic? It doesn't even make sense to allow a corp member to outright kill another corp member. Unless they enter into a duel together. Spies/corp killers can just be more creative instead of join...kill...watch enraged player quit the game. How is that healthy for the game as a whole?


Ha, when you say "more creative" you mean "impossible if the corp leadership tells people to not accept duels". Which they would.

Stop trying to remove a legitimate playstyle because you don't like it. If I had a million isk for everyone who blustered about quitting and didn't, I wouldn't have to pay for my acounts for a year. This is an imaginary problem.


I didn't say I didn't like it. Just doesn't make sense to me to have it exist like that. Why would it be okay in any situation to openly fire on teammates without some type of consequence?

As an addition to the things other people have stated, there's a benefit to this as well. You know what makes big ass ships warp off really fast? Being webbed at the right time. You know what lets you do that without being blapped by Concord? Being in the same corp.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#402 - 2014-07-15 02:34:35 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The situation you described above is also a reason why I think that faction police should be largely removed from the game, and CONCORD made into something that is a less binary, 100% reliable mechanic

Bad quote, sorry. That's a hell of an answer though - and along the lines I was thinking. Care to expand?


Sure. As far as facpo, I think they don't belong chasing anyone who isn't in faction warfare. People complain all the time about how gankers never fly ships that constitute any meaningful loss. Gee, I wonder why? Probably because the NPCs do the chasing far better than any prospective white knight ever could. Removing them is a step towards encouraging player driven solutions to player created conflict.

As for CONCORD, while I have a few transient ideas, it mostly comes down to the fact that I think that CONCORD being 100% reliable has allowed it to be gamed. It's not a deterrent to us because we know exactly what to account for, and it serves little purpose in that role.

So I would suggest a number of things (these are, as I mentioned, in the formative state). First being that CONCORD could be tanked, but drastically ramps up their damage over time(oh and they don't jam). Secondly that their arrival on grid should not be so reliably the same every time, but more variable, and with ways to effect those variables that don't involve blowing up noob ships on a gate across the system.

Basically I want more room for players to interact with each other, and to do that we need to, as Mittens so nicely put it, "slay the sacred cow" of the invicible magic space police. Because CONCORD and facpo crowd out potential player interaction.


Quote:

I'm all for leaving awoxing as it is btw - never not shoot a corpie unexepectedly, anywhere. Corpies are squishy/annoying.

Awoxing as a deterent to entry to highsec corps was a wierd angle in the first place.


Anyone who actually does any awoxing has to be scratching their heads at the concept of being turned down for corp entry for being a new player. I sure am, because it flat out does not happen to me. As I've said in the other thread, the closest I have come to such a thing were minimum skillpoint requirements.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#403 - 2014-07-15 07:22:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Unezka Turigahl
A noob zone might be cool if it had noob-frigate pvp. I remember when I came back to EVE and made my second character, salvage had just been added to the game. There were pockets near the noob systems that only allowed noob frigates in. I think one of my characters still has bookmarks to those sites but they are no longer there. Anyway, all us noobs were in there farming the salvage which was ridiculously valuable at the time. Wasn't long before we starting stealing from each other and blowing each other up. It was fun and not at all punishing to lose a noob frigate. Might be a good way to teach pvp and theft mechanics.

Maybe have noobs set safety to yellow and fight over noob-tokens to earn enough to trade in for a Rifter and enter the "nullsec" noob-pocket to fight other noobs. Win a fight, get ported to hisec with your Rifter. Loose 3 Rifters in noobsec, get ported to hisec with no ship in shame.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#404 - 2014-07-15 07:37:47 UTC
Why are we still on this subject? The Mittani has moved on to sov null and removing all super capitals to open the door for smaller groups.

Since we seem to hang off his every word and analyse it to the nth degree, we should be discussing other things now, like the good sheeple we are.
Reiisha
#405 - 2014-07-15 07:41:03 UTC
Christina Project wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Reiisha wrote:


If they drive away all the new players there won't be a game left for them to play.


You know that people have been saying that since 2003 right. Every time I hear it I imagine a dude with a long white beard watcing his wrist watch and saying "any time now".

Nothing can chase away 'all the new players', it didn't chase you or me away, and we were new once.

That last line is actually the best shot against this crap.


This is true, but only to some extent. You can't deny that growth has been stunted for quite a while now and new player retention is quite low. However, this isn't because of griefing, but because there aren't enough incentives for new players just yet.

When new players don't get at least a semblence of a helping hand (not in terms of isk or items, mind you, but in a sense of direction and help in/from the community) they will be 'goaded' into missions or other solo PvE activities. When their first introduction to PvP is being ganked in a ship they played a month to build up, they may not renew and/or come back.

My apoligies if my post seemed vague - Griefing persé is not the problem, it's the lack of direction given to newbies that is, especially where PvP is concerned.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#406 - 2014-07-15 07:44:34 UTC
Reiisha wrote:

You can't deny that growth has been stunted for quite a while now


Prove it first, without making the giant mental leap about concurrency, and then we'll talk.

I will not accept your assertion at face value.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#407 - 2014-07-15 07:57:16 UTC
Reiisha wrote:


This is true, but only to some extent. You can't deny that growth has been stunted for quite a while now and new player retention is quite low. However, this isn't because of griefing, but because there aren't enough incentives for new players just yet.



What Kaarous said, because yes, without the data, it can indeed be easily denied. Additionally, there is plenty of incentive for new players, as long as those new players are the kind of people that are going to be interested in what EVE is. If they aren't then they were always going to quit anyway regardless of the incentives they get when they're new.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#408 - 2014-07-15 09:44:02 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
also, nowhere in that article does the mittani say that griefing drives away new players.

the only remotely relevant or related quote is this:
Quote:
Except that hisec corporations are skittish about letting 'new players' join because of hisec awoxing: griefers such as my own space-tribe joining a corporation and then murderzoning the membership through a loophole in Concord enforcement - you can join a corp and attack anyone in your own corporation, even in hisec. Here's another sacred cow to slaughter: hisec awoxing is absolutely stupid from a business and retention perspective as it disincentivizes players from reaching out to genuine confused newbies.


this doesn't even remotely translate to the title of this thread, it just illustrates that nobody wants to do what we should be doing to help new players because it's not worth the risk. which is just ******* dumb because we should all love newbies unconditionally because there's not a sensible person here who would disagree with that.


It states AWOXing makes corps less likely to invite new Characters into their ranks. This means that new player experience in Eve is effected by creating less opportunities for new players.

Eve is all about your Corp/Friends/Alliance. Perhaps you should apply some logic to the statement and follow it through to it's natural conclusion.
Handar Turiant
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#409 - 2014-07-15 09:59:24 UTC
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
A noob zone might be cool if it had noob-frigate pvp. I remember when I came back to EVE and made my second character, salvage had just been added to the game. There were pockets near the noob systems that only allowed noob frigates in. I think one of my characters still has bookmarks to those sites but they are no longer there. Anyway, all us noobs were in there farming the salvage which was ridiculously valuable at the time. Wasn't long before we starting stealing from each other and blowing each other up. It was fun and not at all punishing to lose a noob frigate. Might be a good way to teach pvp and theft mechanics.

Maybe have noobs set safety to yellow and fight over noob-tokens to earn enough to trade in for a Rifter and enter the "nullsec" noob-pocket to fight other noobs. Win a fight, get ported to hisec with your Rifter. Loose 3 Rifters in noobsec, get ported to hisec with no ship in shame.


THIS.

Think about it. The Noob zone you can only leave once you have succesfully killed x amount of other noobs. Get them used to mechanics. Provide some ISD people to be in the noob zone 23/7 and approach people based on their killmail and explain what just happened when they get popped.

The analogy is for every unforgiving activity:

In diving, your first dive is not to 30m to penetrate a wreck on a deco dive
In motorcycling, your first bike is not a Hayabusa and the keys with a "Go Do!" mentality
In swimming, you start in the 30cm kiddie pool, you don't get thrown off the diving board into the USMC diving tank


We need NPE to start with better training wheels.
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#410 - 2014-07-15 11:17:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Sara Tosa
Handar Turiant wrote:

Think about it. The Noob zone you can only leave once you have succesfully killed x amount of other noobs. Get them used to mechanics. Provide some ISD people to be in the noob zone 23/7 and approach people based on their killmail and explain what just happened when they get popped.

cadet fw: basically fw plexes (with similar limitation to ship size like fw plexes), like fw plexes once somebody activate it everybody in system will know but any time somebody warp to it it will get semirandomly assigned to bue or red, any preexistent flet drops and get autofleet to its temporary faction, any corp allegiance or wathever wont count.
then pew pew the other faction till fun ensue.


problems: off grid boost.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#411 - 2014-07-15 13:21:25 UTC
Reiisha wrote:


This is true, but only to some extent. You can't deny that growth has been stunted for quite a while now and new player retention is quite low. However, this isn't because of griefing, but because there aren't enough incentives for new players just yet.

When new players don't get at least a semblence of a helping hand (not in terms of isk or items, mind you, but in a sense of direction and help in/from the community) they will be 'goaded' into missions or other solo PvE activities. When their first introduction to PvP is being ganked in a ship they played a month to build up, they may not renew and/or come back.

My apoligies if my post seemed vague - Griefing persé is not the problem, it's the lack of direction given to newbies that is, especially where PvP is concerned.


If they need a helping hand, that means a sandbox MMO (which requires a 'self-starter' type personality) is probably not the best choice for them. Not saying that helping new payers is bad, but there is a certain point at which a person has to want something themselves before you CAN help them.

Additionally, that help is already available and accessable in the form of groups like EVE university, Brave, RvB etc etc. Those groups are why I think the whole 'safe newbie area' idea is stupid. if people can't be arsed to use the stuff that's already there, why do people think 'new things' will help.

The problem is the lack of interest and will in the average gamer (which is something only the gamer him/herself can fix), not safety or NPE content.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#412 - 2014-07-15 16:47:26 UTC
Can't wait for Crius.

Queue stack noob systems and wait for the thread.
"Why do I need to pay 14 million ISK to run my tutorial manufacturing Job"? Twisted
Reiisha
#413 - 2014-07-16 11:26:59 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Reiisha wrote:


This is true, but only to some extent. You can't deny that growth has been stunted for quite a while now and new player retention is quite low. However, this isn't because of griefing, but because there aren't enough incentives for new players just yet.

When new players don't get at least a semblence of a helping hand (not in terms of isk or items, mind you, but in a sense of direction and help in/from the community) they will be 'goaded' into missions or other solo PvE activities. When their first introduction to PvP is being ganked in a ship they played a month to build up, they may not renew and/or come back.

My apoligies if my post seemed vague - Griefing persé is not the problem, it's the lack of direction given to newbies that is, especially where PvP is concerned.


If they need a helping hand, that means a sandbox MMO (which requires a 'self-starter' type personality) is probably not the best choice for them. Not saying that helping new payers is bad, but there is a certain point at which a person has to want something themselves before you CAN help them.

Additionally, that help is already available and accessable in the form of groups like EVE university, Brave, RvB etc etc. Those groups are why I think the whole 'safe newbie area' idea is stupid. if people can't be arsed to use the stuff that's already there, why do people think 'new things' will help.

The problem is the lack of interest and will in the average gamer (which is something only the gamer him/herself can fix), not safety or NPE content.


This will only attract and keep people who already are into sandboxes, but it won't retain people who aren't sure yet or haven't had any experience with them.

I'm also not advocating a safe newbie area, just more opportunities provided to newbies to engage in things that aren't industry or PvE through a better NPE. There's a huge gap for new players who don't already have friends in the game to actually get to the fun stuff.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Christina Project
Screaming Head in a Box.
#414 - 2014-07-16 11:32:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Christina Project
Reiisha wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Reiisha wrote:


This is true, but only to some extent. You can't deny that growth has been stunted for quite a while now and new player retention is quite low. However, this isn't because of griefing, but because there aren't enough incentives for new players just yet.

When new players don't get at least a semblence of a helping hand (not in terms of isk or items, mind you, but in a sense of direction and help in/from the community) they will be 'goaded' into missions or other solo PvE activities. When their first introduction to PvP is being ganked in a ship they played a month to build up, they may not renew and/or come back.

My apoligies if my post seemed vague - Griefing persé is not the problem, it's the lack of direction given to newbies that is, especially where PvP is concerned.


If they need a helping hand, that means a sandbox MMO (which requires a 'self-starter' type personality) is probably not the best choice for them. Not saying that helping new payers is bad, but there is a certain point at which a person has to want something themselves before you CAN help them.

Additionally, that help is already available and accessable in the form of groups like EVE university, Brave, RvB etc etc. Those groups are why I think the whole 'safe newbie area' idea is stupid. if people can't be arsed to use the stuff that's already there, why do people think 'new things' will help.

The problem is the lack of interest and will in the average gamer (which is something only the gamer him/herself can fix), not safety or NPE content.


This will only attract and keep people who already are into sandboxes, but it won't retain people who aren't sure yet or haven't had any experience with them.

I'm also not advocating a safe newbie area, just more opportunities provided to newbies to engage in things that aren't industry or PvE through a better NPE. There's a huge gap for new players who don't already have friends in the game to actually get to the fun stuff.

There are quite a few things new players can do,
which aren't laid out by CCP, aka emergent gameplay.

Problem is that CCP doesn't tell them good enough and assholes in starter corps
make sure they don't get to know about them,
by sending them mining and mission running.

[i]"Don't look into another human's bowl to see how much he has ... ... look into his bowl to see if he has enough !" - Sol[/i]
Christina Project
Screaming Head in a Box.
#415 - 2014-07-16 11:34:47 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Why are we still on this subject? The Mittani has moved on to sov null and removing all super capitals to open the door for smaller groups.

Since we seem to hang off his every word and analyse it to the nth degree, we should be discussing other things now, like the good sheeple we are.

I congratulate you for ability to see what the sheep and weak minded are blind for.

[i]"Don't look into another human's bowl to see how much he has ... ... look into his bowl to see if he has enough !" - Sol[/i]
Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
#416 - 2014-07-16 11:48:05 UTC
Calling people sheep makes you look like an angsty teen and does nothing else.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Christina Project
Screaming Head in a Box.
#417 - 2014-07-16 12:14:17 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Calling people sheep makes you look like an angsty teen and does nothing else.


Says the clueless sheep. *shrug*

[i]"Don't look into another human's bowl to see how much he has ... ... look into his bowl to see if he has enough !" - Sol[/i]
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#418 - 2014-07-16 12:46:40 UTC
Hey look, it's still this thread.

And still no ISD.... interesting.

Roll

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Rumtin
Imperium Technologies
Sigma Grindset
#419 - 2014-07-16 13:41:38 UTC
Ironic that the guy hosting annual Burn Jita would be complaining about Griefing. Give me a break.
Wiros PotHead
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#420 - 2014-07-16 13:58:13 UTC
I can not agree 100%, even if the introduction of a "safe area" will help retaining new players for more time, once crossing the gate they would be found a completely different universe.

Learn in a safe area before being thrown into piranha tank I think it might be counterproductive because they would have learned how it works in a corner that works differently.

Personally, I've been playing online since the days of Quake II, and what hooked me into EVE is its complexity, perhaps it pull back a lot of players, but hooked to many others for same reason.

Btw... I´m 5 months old in EVE

“This is war. You never want to fight fair. You want to sneak up behind your enemy and club him over the head.”

– Kara Thrace aka "Starbuck"