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Lack of a high end caldari rail platform
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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2014-07-16 14:30:44 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I don't mind the BS situation as the fleet rokh is a thing - I just want eagles to not be inferior at everything compared to other HACs Sad

Fix that into a good rail platform and that fills a bunch of gaps for me. Trouble is, I don't know how to do it without making it a rail only boat.



it is not inferior. (if you exclude de overpowered ishtar). IT has way more EHP than the munin and longer range than the zealot. SO it has its role and usage.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#62 - 2014-07-16 14:54:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Sniping have problems, but they are NOT the oens you described. They are in grid probing, max lock range and warp inside grid. Those are not SHIP problems. Those are problem swith other game mechanics and arbitrary limits.



Very true. But as I don't see ccp fixing, for lack of better wording...someone will say working as intended I am sure, these the logical next step is to work on something they can not redoing major parts of the game. A navy/pirate caldari based ship, or even t2 (I'd not unsub in protest over widow makeover, also be the least contentious as I know I'd **** off lots of peeps if I said golem lol) that gives us a middle ground of some kind of range and some deeps would be an easier angle to work.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2014-07-16 15:04:10 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Sniping have problems, but they are NOT the oens you described. They are in grid probing, max lock range and warp inside grid. Those are not SHIP problems. Those are problem swith other game mechanics and arbitrary limits.



Very true. But as I don't see ccp fixing, for lack of better wording...someone will say working as intended I am sure, these the logical next step is to work on something they can not redoing major parts of the game. A navy/pirate caldari based ship, or even t2 (I'd not unsub in protest over widow makeover, also be the least contentious as I know I'd **** off lots of peeps if I said golem lol) that gives us a middle ground of some kind of range and some deeps would be an easier angle to work.


Yes, but they could at least admit that "sniping" really isnt a thing and rebalance accordingly.


@Kagura: Cerberus is also better at long ranges - i.e. workable long ranges.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#64 - 2014-07-16 15:30:54 UTC
Saelem Black wrote:
I've been thinking about this as a gun focused caldari player. There seems to be a lack of upper end gunboats for caldari players ala the merlin ship line.

For missiles we have, kestrel -> corax -> caracal -> drake -> raven -> CNR\Golem\SNI\Widow
For rails we have merlin -> cormorant -> moa -> ferox -> rokh/naga

There isn't any top tier for caldari rail users. All of caldari high end is missiles, CNR, SNI, Golem, Widow, Rattlesnake, Barghest. The only thing even remotely applicable is the nightmare, but that requires an entire different turret family. I'd like to see a proper rail specialized faction\tech2 BS.

Maybe repurpose the SNI, since it doesn't seem to be used much, especially in comparison to the CNR.
10% to large hybrid optimal range level
10% to large hybrid damage per level

6 highs, 6 turrets
8 mids
6 lows

Thoughts?

Edit: The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.
Looking at faction battleships:
Minmatar; fleet phoon, fleet tempest. fleet phoon can be used well with missiles.
Gallente; navy domi, navy mega, navy domi uses drones
Amarr; admittedly, the navy amarr BSs are both lasers, but the bhaal and nestor don't require much more skills and both offer a suped up facet of the geddon. Both SOE and Blood ships rely principally on amarr support skills.
Caldari, SNI and CNR are both missile boats, Barg and Rattler, are both missile boats, Nightmare relies heavily on amarr skills with the turrets. There is no large faction/T2 rail platform.


I'd rather see a new ship than repurpose the SNI. The SNI has a super nice buffer tank which is great in certain situations. Beyond that though, yeah, I'd love to see something like a Navy Rokh, or a T2 hybrid platform.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2014-07-16 19:44:07 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:

(if the ship dont use a caldari ship skill, i dont count it as something caldari have access to, even if you can cross train to whatever you want)


Convenient, isnt it?

Yet you know, logical. Since if it doesn't use a Caldari skill then it's not a Caldari ship by any stretch of the imagination. And EVE does pride itself on Lore.
Simply saying LOL CROSSTRAIN N00B! When this is a thread about the lack of a Caldari Hybrid ship other than the Rokh is kinda missing the point by oh, a planets worth.


Logic has nothing to do with it, it is also logical for caldari to not have a secondary weapon navy bs, for the same reason amarr dont have it, pure armor or shield dont have it, the ones that are able to fit either have it.

See?
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#66 - 2014-07-16 20:14:49 UTC
EoM would seem to be the obvious faction rail platform.
Saelem Black
Cog Banking
#67 - 2014-07-17 02:47:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Saelem Black
Pheusia wrote:
EoM would seem to be the obvious faction rail platform.



I was thinking about this actually. They use amarr hulls currently, but it would be a nice to see a silver/black pirate faction. Do either a minmatar/caldari (since it doesn't exist yet) or amarr/caldari.

Something like this:

Azreal (EOM Battleship)

Minmatar Battleship Bonus:
10% bonus to targeting range and scan resolution

Caldari Battleship Bonus:
10% bonus to large hybrid turret optimal range

Role Bonus:
100% penalty to large hybrid turret rate of fire (not sure how to word this. Idea is turrets take twice as long to cycle)
200% bonus to large hybrid turret damage

Slot layout: 8H, 7M, 5L; 8 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 18000 PWG, 780 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 10000 / 8000 / 8800
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 6800 / 1133s / 6.0
Mobility (max velocity / align time): 108 / 14s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km / 120 / 8
Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 370

If I did my math right, this should have an effective 12 turrets, and with rails would be able to field around 1000 dps at 80+55 km (sniper fit, 425s, caldari navy antimatter), 680 dps at 148+55 (sniper fit, 425s, caldari navy lead) and 1200 dps at 25+29 (brawler fit, neutrons, null) This ship would be the premier sniping platform, having very high alpha at the expense of rate of fire and being able to lock quickly at extreme range while still supporting good defense. No tracking bonus and weak drone bay means the ship is vulnerable up close. It has very good agility to help it maneuver with an mjd, but poor top speed.
Saelem Black
Cog Banking
#68 - 2014-07-17 03:40:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Saelem Black
For completeness:

Esdras (EOM Cruiser)

Minmatar Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to targeting range and scan resolution

Caldari Cruiser Bonus:
25% bonus to medium hybrid turret optimal range

Role Bonus:
100% penalty to medium hybrid turret rate of fire
220% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage

Slot layout: 5H, 6M, 4L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 1100 PWG, 400 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3000 / 2000 / 2300
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1600 / 533s / 3.0
Mobility (max velocity / align time): 205/ 5s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 350 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 130


Yisra (EOM Frigate)

Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to targeting range and scan resolution

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
40% bonus to small hybrid turret optimal range

Role Bonus:
100% penalty to small hybrid turret rate of fire
400% bonus to small hybrid turret damage

Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 3 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 45 PWG, CPU 170
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 600 / 520 / 550
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380 / 127s / 3
Mobility (max velocity / align time): 330 / 3.5s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 45km / 670 / 5
Sensor strength: 14 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 35

If any one bothers to read that, keep in mind that caldari's famous double range bonus on ships is not actually 2x optimal, It is 1.5*1.5 = +125% optimal (hence the hybrid system on the tengu is inferior to the range bonus on the eagle/vulture), so the Esdras bonus equals that at caldari cruiser V.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#69 - 2014-07-17 03:54:15 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:


Logic has nothing to do with it, it is also logical for caldari to not have a secondary weapon navy bs, for the same reason amarr dont have it, pure armor or shield dont have it, the ones that are able to fit either have it.

See?


Amarr do have a Pirate secondary weapon BS however. In the Nestor. And the only reason they don't have a secondary weapon Navy BS is because of how much a few people cried over the proposed changed to the Navy Geddon because they didn't want to buy a new hull for running level 4 missions. CCP proposed it and a few peoples screams drowned out the larger more moderate group who were fine with the changes.
Minmatar do have a Navy BS on their secondary weapon.
Gallente have well.... Everything.

Caldari have.... None of the above options for their secondary weapon system.

So your logic falls down there. It's not to say I'm totally on board that this hole needs desperately to be filled. But trying to pretend the argument behind it is invalid doesn't work, there is valid logic behind the argument.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2014-07-17 05:30:59 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:


Logic has nothing to do with it, it is also logical for caldari to not have a secondary weapon navy bs, for the same reason amarr dont have it, pure armor or shield dont have it, the ones that are able to fit either have it.

See?


Amarr do have a Pirate secondary weapon BS however. In the Nestor. And the only reason they don't have a secondary weapon Navy BS is because of how much a few people cried over the proposed changed to the Navy Geddon because they didn't want to buy a new hull for running level 4 missions. CCP proposed it and a few peoples screams drowned out the larger more moderate group who were fine with the changes.
Minmatar do have a Navy BS on their secondary weapon.
Gallente have well.... Everything.

Caldari have.... None of the above options for their secondary weapon system.

So your logic falls down there. It's not to say I'm totally on board that this hole needs desperately to be filled. But trying to pretend the argument behind it is invalid doesn't work, there is valid logic behind the argument.


As i said, logic has nothing to do with it , you can seemingly logically justify everything, as i tried and now you have demonstrated, mentioning the nestor (of all ships) as the justification for a 9 eff turret +50% range non-pirate bs.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#71 - 2014-07-17 05:40:59 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:

As i said, logic has nothing to do with it , you can seemingly logically justify everything, as i tried and now you have demonstrated, mentioning the nestor (of all ships) as the justification for a 9 eff turret +50% range non-pirate bs.

Now you are showing how delusional you are, nowhere have I voiced support for any specific ship existing. Also EOM would be a Pirate ship as proposed. Showing lack of reading skills. You are looking more and more like you are arguing simply to teabag people and feel superior with your lack of reasoning.
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#72 - 2014-07-17 06:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Joraa Starkmanir
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:


So we can see that EVERY race have 2 ships that out DPS the Rokh by a good margin. For sniping i would not be supprised if the other races can match a Rokh, but that requires a full fit on all the ships so give me a Rokh baseline and ill see if i can match its stats (ehp / optimal+falloff / target range / dps should be the most important)



Now compare the RANGE where all they can hit 100% of time and how much tank you can fit on the ship while fielding that. Rokh is an amazingly powerful sniper and only a fool cannot see it. It just is made to be used in a fleet with basilisks/scimitars and take advantage of the MUCH larger EHP it has compared to everythgin there bar the abaddon (that has a different drawback of being unable to fire for long periods)

And all this post is illogic , there never was any presumption that all types of wepaosn shoudl ahve a high end platform for them for each race that uses them.

You want to check wrogn things with races, forget WERAPONS and pay attention on the racial flavor that have been raped over the years makign the races more and more equal.


I think you missed my last sentence there buddy, as im no fitting wizard i would require a Rokh baseline for comparison (or else my comparison would get shut down due to "wrong" fitting on the Rokh)
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2014-07-17 07:14:11 UTC
I'm not sure what convinces you that the Cormorant, Naga, and Rokh aren't exactly what you're looking for.

I think the Cormorant should have one more turret hardpoint but otherwise the lineup is looking great.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2014-07-17 07:24:48 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:

As i said, logic has nothing to do with it , you can seemingly logically justify everything, as i tried and now you have demonstrated, mentioning the nestor (of all ships) as the justification for a 9 eff turret +50% range non-pirate bs.

Now you are showing how delusional you are, nowhere have I voiced support for any specific ship existing. Also EOM would be a Pirate ship as proposed. Showing lack of reading skills. You are looking more and more like you are arguing simply to teabag people and feel superior with your lack of reasoning.


If you have to resort to this in response to someone that merely tries to ridicule the over the top notions in this thread about the percieved disadvantages of caldari pilots refusing to crosstrain and justifying stronger ships with weaker ones, good luck with someone that actually opposes the idea.
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#75 - 2014-07-17 12:57:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Joraa Starkmanir
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'm not sure what convinces you that the Cormorant, Naga, and Rokh aren't exactly what you're looking for.


The lineup for caldari hybrid ships (rail or blaster) ends with T1 battleship, while basicly every other combination have faction, pirate, and/or T2 battleships. This means that as a caldari pilot that use rails or blasters you have no real "endgame" goal, other than training totaly diffrent ships.
Caldari use shield + missile or hybrids, there is one faction or pirate or T2 battlehip that use the combination of shield + hybrid. Serpentis, that happens to need 2x racial skills.

Racial + tank + weapon is something that lack an top tier ship for Caldari + Shield + Hybrid, compare that to the other race/tank/weapon systems and you should see the point thats beeing made in this thread.
Phaade
Know-Nothings
Negative Feedback
#76 - 2014-07-17 14:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaade
Kaerakh, You sir, are a complete moron. Please refrain from posting such drivel on these forums.

OP, you have a completely legitimate point. I trained large hybrids to V before all other weapon systems becuase I figured, hell two races use them, the likelihood of me utilizing T2 large hybrids is highest. Wrong. Caldari do seriously lack a rail platform. The navy scorpion is redundant.

There is no logical reason for the Caldari to create a line of ships that use hybrids, including tech II variants all the way down the line, and then stop with one tech I battleship.

Gallente have the Navy Domi, do they not? I've never flown one, but sure seems like they have at least one viable option for their "secondary" weapon system. When most I see are Ishtars, Vexors, Tristans, and Domi's, it's hardly a secondary weapon system.
Phaade
Know-Nothings
Negative Feedback
#77 - 2014-07-17 14:42:08 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:


Logic has nothing to do with it, it is also logical for caldari to not have a secondary weapon navy bs, for the same reason amarr dont have it, pure armor or shield dont have it, the ones that are able to fit either have it.

See?


Amarr do have a Pirate secondary weapon BS however. In the Nestor. And the only reason they don't have a secondary weapon Navy BS is because of how much a few people cried over the proposed changed to the Navy Geddon because they didn't want to buy a new hull for running level 4 missions. CCP proposed it and a few peoples screams drowned out the larger more moderate group who were fine with the changes.
Minmatar do have a Navy BS on their secondary weapon.
Gallente have well.... Everything.

Caldari have.... None of the above options for their secondary weapon system.

So your logic falls down there. It's not to say I'm totally on board that this hole needs desperately to be filled. But trying to pretend the argument behind it is invalid doesn't work, there is valid logic behind the argument.


As i said, logic has nothing to do with it , you can seemingly logically justify everything, as i tried and now you have demonstrated, mentioning the nestor (of all ships) as the justification for a 9 eff turret +50% range non-pirate bs.



What? You certainly can NOT justify everything with logic. If you thought logically, you would understand just how illogical your claim is.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2014-07-17 15:55:18 UTC
Phaade wrote:

What? You certainly can NOT justify everything with logic. If you thought logically, you would understand just how illogical your claim is.


This is not Star Trek and you can construct a seemingly logical argument by, for example, omitting information or using a fallacy.

Can you not? :)
Burizmali
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#79 - 2014-07-17 21:47:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Burizmali
Maybe it is because I remember back in the day but Caldari don't seem that bad off for hybrid boats atm. I think the real root of all of this is the base model Scorpion. Instead of being a nice BS sized hybrid platform for Caldari someone at some point decided it should be a battleship sized ECM boat (is it just me or did there used to be a lot fewer ships with ewar bonuses?). This really kind of limited Caldari to missiles if you wanted to go to battleships and created a big hole in their "secondary" weapon path.

So later when the Rokh was added (2008ish?) it had to be a rail boat and not a more awesomer then the raven missile boat it could have been Sad If the Scorpion had been made correctly then the SNI would already be what it should be and this thread wouldn't be needed. I'd say the game evolved as logically as it could based on what it started with but the problem is it didn't start in a logical place. I'm sure this also effected the Naga making it a hybrid platform and not a torpedo spewing beast. I really think that each primary weapon system (hybrid, laser, projectile, and missile) should have been represented for these new battlecruisers but oh well.

EDIT: Just to throw in an edit...I'd swap the SNI and Naga's weapon systems in a heart beat and fix this right up.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2014-07-18 01:00:27 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Now compare the RANGE where all they can hit 100% of time and how much tank you can fit on the ship while fielding that. Rokh is an amazingly powerful sniper and only a fool cannot see it. It just is made to be used in a fleet with basilisks/scimitars and take advantage of the MUCH larger EHP it has compared to everythgin there bar the abaddon (that has a different drawback of being unable to fire for long periods)

And all this post is illogic , there never was any presumption that all types of wepaosn shoudl ahve a high end platform for them for each race that uses them.

You want to check wrogn things with races, forget WERAPONS and pay attention on the racial flavor that have been raped over the years makign the races more and more equal.


The Rokh has **** for EHP. It has less EHP than a Tachypoc, let alone a Megathron. Remember a fleet-fit Rokh needs an injector so that limits it to a 8-slot tank. (4 mids, damage control, 3 rigs) 2 invulns stacking nerf your shield link bonus down to 50% while armor tanks with 3 hardeners still get 88%. The Rokh has 150k EHP with an EM rig and 165k if it's willing to accept a pretty significant EM resist hole. An Apoc has 175k, the Megathron can get close to 225k with 3 plates and still has 175k in a 2 damagemod config. To even get up to 150k/165k EHP the Rokh has to give up fitting a sensor booster, which the armor battleships can fit.

The Rokh right now is just a really ****** Megathron. If you don't consider the 150km soft range limit due to on-grid probing, it's a ****** Apocalypse instead. Less EHP, less DPS, two thirds the velocity, double the signature radius.

Shield tanking Tier 1 ships is really problematic in general, shield has lower base resists, (0/50/40/20, 110 total vs. 50/20/25/35, 130 total) lower EHP contribution from LSEs vs, plates, shield single-resist hardeners have no advantage over their armor counterparts, and using invulnerability fields stacking nerfs your ganglinks to uselessness. If you're not kiting, which obviously requires a shield tank, you don't want to be shield tanking.