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[Proposal] Transferable Loyalty Points

Author
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-07-09 20:51:30 UTC
^^this, folks, is a proper argument.

Grenn, thank you for sharing.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

My Little Banker
Dead Space Investments
#42 - 2014-07-09 20:52:27 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:
It definitely add some complexity to the issue, but I disagree that it's unnecessary. Being able to transfer LP directly from 1 character to another without any depreciation in value or cost involved in the transfer at all is a bad idea.

Transferring LP would be an extremely powerful option for large organizations of players allowing them to have everyone lump their LP into a single character to quickly purchase the most expensive items available without any real cost invovled. Doing it without having to travel to a station owned by the NPC corp would make it even more exploitable by having players never even have to travel to spend their LP, just transfer it to an LP bank alt you keep at an appropriate station.

No, vouchers would definitely be a necessary step of the process, not only to avoid exploits like I've described but also to help CCP control the value of LP. CONCORD LP is extremely valuable, imagine if everyone in an incursion community agreed to sell their LP to a single character at the end of an incursion. Hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of LP are awarded at the end of every incursion and 1 character just got all of it and he's already sitting in a CONCORD station waiting to trade it all in for implants and BPCs. Without some sort of conversion or transfer cost involved that's simply too exploitable.

I don't see how that is an exploitation of the mechanic. People should be able to spend their LP however they want. This also does not stop people from accumulating LP. I know someone sitting on 60b+ of Caldari LP if he ever cashes in you will know.
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2014-07-09 21:02:10 UTC
My Little Banker wrote:
I don't see how that is an exploitation of the mechanic. People should be able to spend their LP however they want. This also does not stop people from accumulating LP. I know someone sitting on 60b+ of Caldari LP if he ever cashes in you will know.


I think you're forgetting that this is EVE. Nothing is free.

People can spend their LP however they want as long as it doesn't give them an undue advantage over everyone else, and they can't do it without paying some sort of price in the process.

Trade LP for items, there's almost always an isk cost involved in the purchase, often there's even a list of items you need to include in the exchange. Want to turn that item into isk? Post it on the market, broker fees you need to pay. Create a contract, fees on that too. Direct player trading, you need spend the time to meet up with the person to trade.

Nothing is free. You either spend isk or time, often both. Transferring LP is a wonderful idea, but allowing it to be 'right click, transfer LP' like you can 'give isk' is never going to happen.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#44 - 2014-07-09 21:09:50 UTC
navy still come after u even if they are pretty much in bed with u. u can be +10, but they shoot u just cause of FW.

Buying a hookbil on the market from another player is one thing. Getting it for free (or the cost of a kestrel) off an NPC because of LP's is another.

That access to a cheaper hookbill is intended for someone who put the work in. Just like perfect refining and access to jump clones and higher level mission agents.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2014-07-09 21:13:05 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
navy still come after u even if they are pretty much in bed with u. u can be +10, but they shoot u just cause of FW.

Buying a hookbil on the market from another player is one thing. Getting it for free (or the cost of a kestrel) off an NPC because of LP's is another.

That access to a cheaper hookbill is intended for someone who put the work in. Just like perfect refining and access to jump clones and higher level mission agents.


I can have access to perfect refining by paying someone else to refine it for me.

I can get access to jump clones by joining a corp that has a clone facility, purchase the clones, then leave the corp, I get to keep the clones.

I can get access to high level missions by joining someone else that has access to them in a fleet and them splitting the rewards with me. (I don't even need to help with the mission or be in the same system with them for this to work if they're willing to split the rewards)
Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#46 - 2014-07-09 21:18:13 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:
Doing it without having to travel to a station owned by the NPC corp would make it even more exploitable by having players never even have to travel to spend their LP, just transfer it to an LP bank alt you keep at an appropriate station

Which is why I am a huge advocate of putting each type of LP on the market. It is taxed just like buying and selling an item is. (Woo! more isk sink!) The market will agree to the value of the LP. LP is susceptible to the same market forces as anything else. It will rise and fall as things change. If it falls too much you will likely see massive LP buys that turn into items that are again sold on market. If it rises too much then you will see an uptick in LP production. Free markets win again.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#47 - 2014-07-09 21:20:22 UTC
because u know someone who will do it for u, for free or for isk. the same can go for getting a hookbill from an LP store.

so u think we should remove the NPC standing requirements for JC's, refining and mission agents?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2014-07-09 21:28:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Grenn Putubi wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
navy still come after u even if they are pretty much in bed with u. u can be +10, but they shoot u just cause of FW.

Buying a hookbil on the market from another player is one thing. Getting it for free (or the cost of a kestrel) off an NPC because of LP's is another.

That access to a cheaper hookbill is intended for someone who put the work in. Just like perfect refining and access to jump clones and higher level mission agents.


I can have access to perfect refining by paying someone else to refine it for me.

I can get access to jump clones by joining a corp that has a clone facility, purchase the clones, then leave the corp, I get to keep the clones.

I can get access to high level missions by joining someone else that has access to them in a fleet and them splitting the rewards with me. (I don't even need to help with the mission or be in the same system with them for this to work if they're willing to split the rewards)
If you need another character to do it then you actually don't have access to the highest refining rates. That character does, you have that refine + whatever costs the other character imposes, which perfectly parallels the cost of the hookbill on the market vs the LP store.

Same with clones and standing, someone offers a service to you, whether at a cost or not is their choice. The commonality in all those cases is that the NPC granted rewards and abilities are at no point actually removed from one character to be given to the other. Players who don't have those capacities enlist the aid of players that do and, with the exception of when credit for the earning act is actually shared, again a player choice with that particular consequence in mind, the ability to perform the task itself is not transferred.

Additionally this whole thing ties back into the point of location and interaction being important. A nullsec player shouldn't be able to bypass the mechanics of LP store locations relative to their characters location, along with any other limits created by personal decisions that may be involved (Faction standing/Security status/War dec/etc) any more than a highsec player who doesn't want to go to null should expect to be able to run DED 10/10's.

Edit: I got lost in the flow of conversation somehow and attributed a stance to you that you didn't have apparently. The voucher idea you presented a few posts back is one that I can get behind, but the proposed isk-like ability to transfer LP is a no from me.
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2014-07-09 21:29:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Grenn Putubi
Aliventi wrote:
Grenn Putubi wrote:
Doing it without having to travel to a station owned by the NPC corp would make it even more exploitable by having players never even have to travel to spend their LP, just transfer it to an LP bank alt you keep at an appropriate station

Which is why I am a huge advocate of putting each type of LP on the market. It is taxed just like buying and selling an item is. (Woo! more isk sink!) The market will agree to the value of the LP. LP is susceptible to the same market forces as anything else. It will rise and fall as things change. If it falls too much you will likely see massive LP buys that turn into items that are again sold on market. If it rises too much then you will see an uptick in LP production. Free markets win again.


And I agree that the free market will basically self regulate LP if it's made to function more like the commodity that it is. The issue is how to get it on the market. Turning the LP into an item to post on the market first, such as the LP vouchers I described, would be the best way to do that of all the suggestions I've seen in the thread.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
because u know someone who will do it for u, for free or for isk. the same can go for getting a hookbill from an LP store.

so u think we should remove the NPC standing requirements for JC's, refining and mission agents?


Not at all. I think they're fair as they are, but the system is designed in a way that those restrictions can be avoided. LP is just another form of currency in the game, it's just one that's extremely limited in application. Allowing people to trade LP directly instead of just the items LP purchases would be the step needed for LP to function like every other currency in the game. There's nothing stopping me from paying someone to use their LP to buy me a ship I normally wouldn't have access to, why not simplify the process and just allow me to purchase the LP directly so I can buy the ship myself. There would be less risk involved for all parties involved in the trade. Instead of 'I promise to pay you for the hookbill if you buy it for me' and the LP seller assuming the risk that the purchaser is actually going to buy the ship the LP seller just sells the LP and then walks away.
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2014-07-09 21:36:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Grenn Putubi
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
If you need another character to do it then you actually don't have access to the highest refining rates. That character does, you have that refine + whatever costs the other character imposes, which perfectly parallels the cost of the hookbill on the market vs the LP store.

Same with clones and standing, someone offers a service to you, whether at a cost or not is their choice. The commonality in all those cases is that the NPC granted rewards and abilities are at no point actually removed from one character to be given to the other. Players who don't have those capacities enlist the aid of players that do and, with the exception of when credit for the earning act is actually shared, again a player choice with that particular consequence in mind, the ability to perform the task itself is not transferred.

Additionally this whole thing ties back into the point of location and interaction being important. A nullsec player shouldn't be able to bypass the mechanics of LP store locations relative to their characters location, along with any other limits created by personal decisions that may be involved (Faction standing/Security status/War dec/etc) any more than a highsec player who doesn't want to go to null should expect to be able to run DED 10/10's.


Quite right! And I don't think that should change. Adding LP vouchers to the LP stores wouldn't change any of that, especially if there's a conversion cost involved in the purchase of those vouchers. All it would do is allow players to not have to worry about 'which item is getting the best isk/LP today' and instead just purchase the vouchers and post them to the market instead. Thus allowing the purchaser of the vouchers to decide what they want to purchase from the LP store.

As for bypassing the mechanics of the system, there's already a way to do that in game. Just get a jump clone in the appropriate station and leave it there. When you're ready to convert your LP just jump over, use your LP, and then wait out the timer to jump home. Sure you're giving up a night of playing in your normal sandbox, but as long as you're not KOS to the empire your JC is in you could always find something to do while you're there.
Iain Cariaba
#51 - 2014-07-09 21:40:07 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
navy still come after u even if they are pretty much in bed with u. u can be +10, but they shoot u just cause of FW.

Buying a hookbil on the market from another player is one thing. Getting it for free (or the cost of a kestrel) off an NPC because of LP's is another.

That access to a cheaper hookbill is intended for someone who put the work in. Just like perfect refining and access to jump clones and higher level mission agents.


I can have access to perfect refining by paying someone else to refine it for me.

I can get access to jump clones by joining a corp that has a clone facility, purchase the clones, then leave the corp, I get to keep the clones.

I can get access to high level missions by joining someone else that has access to them in a fleet and them splitting the rewards with me. (I don't even need to help with the mission or be in the same system with them for this to work if they're willing to split the rewards)

And get the hookbill by paying someone to cash in their LP.

Loyalty points are better named 'Favor' points.

"You've worked for us for a while, done all these jobs for us, so we're gonna hook you up here with this sweet deal."

Now, why should they be willing to transfer that 'sweet deal' to someone they don't know?
My Little Banker
Dead Space Investments
#52 - 2014-07-09 21:41:06 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:
My Little Banker wrote:
I don't see how that is an exploitation of the mechanic. People should be able to spend their LP however they want. This also does not stop people from accumulating LP. I know someone sitting on 60b+ of Caldari LP if he ever cashes in you will know.


I think you're forgetting that this is EVE. Nothing is free.

People can spend their LP however they want as long as it doesn't give them an undue advantage over everyone else, and they can't do it without paying some sort of price in the process.

Trade LP for items, there's almost always an isk cost involved in the purchase, often there's even a list of items you need to include in the exchange. Want to turn that item into isk? Post it on the market, broker fees you need to pay. Create a contract, fees on that too. Direct player trading, you need spend the time to meet up with the person to trade.

Nothing is free. You either spend isk or time, often both. Transferring LP is a wonderful idea, but allowing it to be 'right click, transfer LP' like you can 'give isk' is never going to happen.

There is one point I agree with you on. Nothing is free. The idea that allowing people to buy and sell LP is not giving anyone an advantage. In fact this is leveling the playing field for people who live in 0.0 and have to currently fly 20+ jumps to cash in their LP where as mission runners live in the same station they cash in at. Currently the cost of flying from 0.0 to a station to cash in LP is higher than people are willing to pay making it so the just don't cash in or simply do not use the ESS that CCP added. If people are able to sell their LP it does not remove the cost of converting it to goods to sell for ISK it only facilitates that process.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#53 - 2014-07-09 21:41:32 UTC
LP is not just another currency. its quantified gratitude.

imagine u work for Nike, and the dirctors say 'for ur stirling work this day u can have 50% discount on any purchase upto £200'.

that discount is intangible, non-tradeable, but can be quantified to be worth £100.

No there is nothing stopping u from paying someone else to get something from an LP store for u, just like theres nothing stopping this Nike employee from offering this discount. But the discount cannot be sold to anyone. He must reach out to someone, or someone reach out to him, and hes still required for the actual transaction.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2014-07-09 21:47:09 UTC
My Little Banker wrote:

There is one point I agree with you on. Nothing is free. The idea that allowing people to buy and sell LP is not giving anyone an advantage. In fact this is leveling the playing field for people who live in 0.0 and have to currently fly 20+ jumps to cash in their LP where as mission runners live in the same station they cash in at. Currently the cost of flying from 0.0 to a station to cash in LP is higher than people are willing to pay making it so the just don't cash in or simply do not use the ESS that CCP added. If people are able to sell their LP it does not remove the cost of converting it to goods to sell for ISK it only facilitates that process.


You're forgetting that part where that hisec player is paying for the convenience of ease of access by accepting lower rewards for his activities. Missions run in hisec offer lesser payouts than those in low or nulsec. Not having easy access to the LP store is the price that nulsec player is paying for getting the greater payouts offered in nulsec. There's always a trade.

As I'm mentioned in other posts there is a way around the travelling, just leave a JC in the LP station and jump to it when you want to cash in. Wait a day (less if you've got skills) and then jump home. Costs you a JC and a night of playing in your usual sandbox, a fair trade imo.
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2014-07-09 21:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Grenn Putubi
Daichi Yamato wrote:
LP is not just another currency. its quantified gratitude.

imagine u work for Nike, and the dirctors say 'for ur stirling work this day u can have 50% discount on any purchase upto £200'.

that discount is intangible, non-tradeable, but can be quantified to be worth £100.

No there is nothing stopping u from paying someone else to get something from an LP store for u, just like theres nothing stopping this Nike employee from offering this discount. But the discount cannot be sold to anyone. He must reach out to someone, or someone reach out to him, and hes still required for the actual transaction.


You're forgetting that EVE is a game. There's no 'gratitude' involved because there are no real people involved in the relationship except the player. LP IS, in effect, currency. It's a stat in a game that you use in trade for in game items, currency.

I love lore and roleplaying as much as the next guy, but let's not forget that at the end of the day we're playing a game and it needs to function like one.

EDIT: As for your NIKE employee discount analogy, the discount is definitely tangible and tradeable. The person just makes a purchase and then sells the goods to someone else, heck he could even arrange to make the sale before he makes the purchase with the discount and thus know ahead of time what to buy to get the most value from his discount. Tangible and tradeable, just like LP. Except that LP exists in a game and selling LP in that game can and should be much easier than it currently is.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#56 - 2014-07-09 21:56:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
so remove LP's if NPC's cannot properly express gratitude...

or should we just come up with a way of trying to quantify it but not make it tradeable, because its a game. Which is exactly what they did.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

My Little Banker
Dead Space Investments
#57 - 2014-07-09 21:59:10 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:
My Little Banker wrote:

There is one point I agree with you on. Nothing is free. The idea that allowing people to buy and sell LP is not giving anyone an advantage. In fact this is leveling the playing field for people who live in 0.0 and have to currently fly 20+ jumps to cash in their LP where as mission runners live in the same station they cash in at. Currently the cost of flying from 0.0 to a station to cash in LP is higher than people are willing to pay making it so the just don't cash in or simply do not use the ESS that CCP added. If people are able to sell their LP it does not remove the cost of converting it to goods to sell for ISK it only facilitates that process.


You're forgetting that part where that hisec player is paying for the convenience of ease of access by accepting lower rewards for his activities. Missions run in hisec offer lesser payouts than those in low or nulsec. Not having easy access to the LP store is the price that nulsec player is paying for getting the greater payouts offered in nulsec. There's always a trade.

As I'm mentioned in other posts there is a way around the travelling, just leave a JC in the LP station and jump to it when you want to cash in. Wait a day (less if you've got skills) and then jump home. Costs you a JC and a night of playing in your usual sandbox, a fair trade imo.

When the effort required to cash in LP is driving people away from using an ESS to make extra money it's a problem that needs to be addressed.
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2014-07-09 22:03:49 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
so remove LP's if NPC's cannot properly express gratitude...

or should we just come up with a way of trying to quantify it, because its a game.


Maybe you missed this part of my argument. I understand, my posts can be intimidating:

Grenn Putubi wrote:
...it's reasonable to assume that 'Good Will' involves doing favors for people other than the one that earned it upon request. It's just a matter of how much Good Will it's going to cost you to get them to do the favor for you.


If you're going to treat the NPCs like people and you're earning favor with those people then why not just ask those people to do favors for others in your stead?

My Little Banker wrote:

When the effort required to cash in LP is driving people away from using an ESS to make extra money it's a problem that needs to be addressed.


I agree, but removing the effort required entirely is not an effective solution to the problem. There must be compromise. Risk vs Reward. Effort vs Payout. Without some sort of trade it becomes a non-issue, and LP should not become a non-issue.
Iain Cariaba
#59 - 2014-07-09 22:09:27 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:
You're forgetting that EVE is a game. There's no 'gratitude' involved because there are no real people involved in the relationship except the player. LP IS, in effect, currency. It's a stat in a game that you use in trade for in game items, currency.

I love lore and roleplaying as much as the next guy, but let's not forget that at the end of the day we're playing a game and it needs to function like one.

Ok, would you like me to start listing all the games that have currencies that you earn throughout game play and are non-transferable? SW:TOR has one for each planet, DDO's micro-currency can be earned in game and is limited to one account. I could look up more, but I don't really need to.

Grenn Putubi wrote:
EDIT: As for your NIKE employee discount analogy, the discount is definitely tangible and tradeable. The person just makes a purchase and then sells the goods to someone else, heck he could even arrange to make the sale before he makes the purchase with the discount and thus know ahead of time what to buy to get the most value from his discount. Tangible and tradeable, just like LP. Except that LP exists in a game and selling LP in that game can and should be much easier than it currently is.

^^ this is exactly how transfering LP items currently works. Only the person who earned the discount can trade it in. Nothing broken here.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#60 - 2014-07-09 22:12:27 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:


Grenn Putubi wrote:
...it's reasonable to assume that 'Good Will' involves doing favors for people other than the one that earned it upon request. It's just a matter of how much Good Will it's going to cost you to get them to do the favor for you.


If you're going to treat the NPCs like people and you're earning favor with those people then why not just ask those people to do favors for others in your stead?


If u want to do that, u can with the existing system.

But u want it to be publicly tradeable, which none of the favours we've discussed are.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs