These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

I Hate To Burst Your Bubble, But...
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
ThisIsntMyMain
Doomheim
#41 - 2011-11-20 08:16:40 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
Complete and utter garbage
Revajin
Doomheim
#42 - 2011-11-20 08:25:52 UTC
At first I was like Ugh but then I was like Lol.

8/10.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#43 - 2011-11-20 08:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Destination SkillQueue
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
There is something wrong with you. The only animals that "hunt" like warp bubbles is a spider. There is no hunting or cornering of anything.Humans would have starved to extinction long time ago if we used that tactic for food. Stop trying to make warp bubbles out to be something spectacular when they are nothing more than a gate camp easy button.


Spiders trap their prey in a web.

Whales trap fish between their bulk and the surface.

Dolphins herd fish together with expelled air bubbles.

Polar bears wait at holes in the ice for seals to come up for a breath.

Crocodiles lie in wait at watering holes.

Lions follow known migratory routes.

Grizzly's snag salmon as they fight the swiftest waters.

Pack hunters of all types attempt to corner their prey.

Ambush hunters abound in nature.

...

Don't you think you guys have trolled this subject long enough...
Look dude. I could care less about how animals eat and I am happy we got folks like you out there willing to learn that kinda stuff, but the fact is that warp bubbles are used for easy kills at choke points. No battle tactics about it. The OP is driving home the point that there is nothing like it in RL combat, and you should know that CCP put that in the game so nullsec could be a little more costly.


Using choke points to ambush your opponents isn't a battle tactic now? One of the oldest and common forms of tactics used doesn't have RL counterparts? The same tactic we trained in the army must have been all in my imagination then too according to you. This is what you're seriously trying to tell me?

It seems to me, that you're the one not talking about real or sensible battle tactics, but instead use whatever argument comes to your mind in an effort to defend some kind of hono(u)r/"real" combat where the point is to give both sides a fair chance. Now I can understand you not liking it when you get outsmarted and out manouvered by others, but at least have the common decency to just say it straight. Desperately trying to make the issue about something it really isn't only makes you look like a fool and makes your argument weaker.

EDIT: Just to be clear ambushing someone at choke points doesn't just involve shooting them there. Your goal is to pin them down there, so they can't just leave your ambush with a few casulties. You can even create a simple choke point, that prevents movement by just disabling a few heavy vehicles in any narrow road and you've effectively blocked the way forward and back, leaving anyone stuck in between easy kills with no hope of escape. The same effect of a choke point with denying your opponent mobility can be achieved by various other means too and is certainly not a problem, if you have time to prepare the battlefield.
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#44 - 2011-11-20 08:50:13 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
There is something wrong with you. The only animals that "hunt" like warp bubbles is a spider. There is no hunting or cornering of anything.Humans would have starved to extinction long time ago if we used that tactic for food. Stop trying to make warp bubbles out to be something spectacular when they are nothing more than a gate camp easy button.


Spiders trap their prey in a web.

Whales trap fish between their bulk and the surface.

Dolphins herd fish together with expelled air bubbles.

Polar bears wait at holes in the ice for seals to come up for a breath.

Crocodiles lie in wait at watering holes.

Lions follow known migratory routes.

Grizzly's snag salmon as they fight the swiftest waters.

Pack hunters of all types attempt to corner their prey.

Ambush hunters abound in nature.

...

Don't you think you guys have trolled this subject long enough...
Look dude. I could care less about how animals eat and I am happy we got folks like you out there willing to learn that kinda stuff, but the fact is that warp bubbles are used for easy kills at choke points. No battle tactics about it. The OP is driving home the point that there is nothing like it in RL combat, and you should know that CCP put that in the game so nullsec could be a little more costly.


Using choke points to ambush your opponents isn't a battle tactic now? One of the oldest and common forms of tactics used doesn't have RL counterparts? The same tactic we trained in the army must have been all in my imagination then too according to you. This is what you're seriously trying to tell me?

It seems to me, that you're the one not talking about real or sensible battle tactics, but instead use whatever argument comes to your mind in an effort to defend some kind of hono(u)r/"real" combat where the point is to give both sides a fair chance. Now I can understand you not liking it when you get outsmarted and out manouvered by others, but at least have the common decency to just say it straight. Desperately trying to make the issue about something it really isn't only makes you look like a fool and makes your argument weaker.

The poster who I was quoting was talking about animals. I could careless about animals. The OP said more or less that warp bubbles make combat dumb too favorable to campers who show no skill. TBH if you believe that warp bubbles is a fair tactic in the realm of EVE, then you would probably support a boost in the bomb area of effect weapon seeing as how you are into RL tactics in EVE. BTW which Army did you serve in?
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
#45 - 2011-11-20 08:54:40 UTC
Step 1: Fit microwarp
Step 2: Burn out of bubble
Step 3: There is no step 3, bubbles are awesome, bookmarks, tactics, are more relevant because of bubbles than they are without them. What EvE *doesn't* need is yet another way to run away. Don't like nullsec? There's rainbows and sunshine in highsec for you, you can even dodge wardecs there now I hear.
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#46 - 2011-11-20 09:01:16 UTC
Covert Kitty wrote:
Step 1: Fit microwarp
Step 2: Burn out of bubble
Step 3: There is no step 3,
you can even dodge wardecs there now I hear.

U sound so mad.
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#47 - 2011-11-20 09:04:15 UTC
Just for the RL argument's sake:

Minefields, razor wire, suppressing fire. All of these are primarily there to inhibit the enemy's movement. All of them can be defeated with the proper tools. And two of them you place well in advance of the enemy appearing, ideally.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#48 - 2011-11-20 09:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Quote:
The poster who I was quoting was talking about animals. I could careless about animals. The OP said more or less that warp bubbles make combat dumb too favorable to campers who show no skill. TBH if you believe that warp bubbles is a fair tactic in the realm of EVE, then you would probably support a boost in the bomb area of effect weapon seeing as how you are into RL tactics in EVE. BTW which Army did you serve in?


Just relax, I'm not trying to rake you over the coals.

Your arguments, including denial that such tactics are common in nature... as well as in warfare since the beginning of recorded history, are getting a little out of control.

I"m not going to accuse you of being a troll, I kinda think you feel strongly about this topic and I can respect that, but you are making a lot of false assumptions.

Bubbles give the defender a slight advantage, a small window of opportunity, against opponents less powerful than themselves... and a slight head start in avoiding opponents more powerful than themselves, nothing more.

They are easy to deal with if you know how.
They are easy to avoid if you know how.
They are easy to turn against the people using them if you know how.

The trick is simply to gain the experience you need to do so. Without that experience it is very easy to get frustrated and claim it is an unfair, overpowered tactic. But the fact that bubble camps are avoided, escaped, or routed countless times every day in EVE prove pretty emphatically that this is not really the case.

While I'm not directing this at you, but I'm sure there are many people that would be over joyed to click a button and instantly be where ever they wished in game... able to access territories and resources that others have worked a very long time to build up... without any effort or skill involved in the attempt. Rest assured that if that were to transpire it would be the beginning of the end of EVE as we know it. It would no longer have a point, a sense of achievement.

The very people that are claiming to be completely oriented to "building and creating something" are in fact saying "building and creating by stealing from what others have built up and created.

I can't get behind that principal at all.

Edit: To be more precise, I don't care if they do it... just as long as there was some skill, effort, and risk involved in them doing so.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#49 - 2011-11-20 09:15:18 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
The poster who I was quoting was talking about animals. I could careless about animals. The OP said more or less that warp bubbles make combat dumb too favorable to campers who show no skill. TBH if you believe that warp bubbles is a fair tactic in the realm of EVE, then you would probably support a boost in the bomb area of effect weapon seeing as how you are into RL tactics in EVE. BTW which Army did you serve in?


Just relax, I'm not trying to rake you over the coals.

Your arguments, including denial that such tactics are common in nature... as well as in warfare since the beginning of recorded history, are getting a little out of control.

I"m not going to accuse you of being a troll, I kinda think you feel strongly about this topic and I can respect that, but you are making a lot of false assumptions.

Bubbles give the defender a slight advantage, a small window of opportunity, against opponents less powerful than themselves... and a slight head start in avoiding opponents more powerful than themselves, nothing more.

They are easy to deal with if you know how.
They are easy to avoid if you know how.
They are easy to turn against the people using them if you know how.

The trick is simply to gain the experience you need to do so. Without that experience it is very easy to get frustrated and claim it is an unfair, overpowered tactic. But the fact that bubble camps are avoided, escaped, or routed countless times every day in EVE prove pretty emphatically that this is not really the case.

While I'm not directing this at you, but I'm sure there are many people that would be over joyed to click a button and instantly be where ever they wished in game... able to access territories and resources that others have worked a very long time to build up... without any effort or skill involved in the attempt. Rest assured that if that were to transpire it would be the beginning of the end of EVE as we know it. It would no longer have a point, a sense of achievement.

The very people that are claiming to be completely oriented to "building and creating something" are in fact saying "building and creating by stealing from what others have built up and created.

I can't get behind that principal at all.
I can see that bubble camp mania is rooted deeply in this one.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#50 - 2011-11-20 09:19:19 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
The poster who I was quoting was talking about animals. I could careless about animals. The OP said more or less that warp bubbles make combat dumb too favorable to campers who show no skill. TBH if you believe that warp bubbles is a fair tactic in the realm of EVE, then you would probably support a boost in the bomb area of effect weapon seeing as how you are into RL tactics in EVE. BTW which Army did you serve in?


Just relax, I'm not trying to rake you over the coals.

Your arguments, including denial that such tactics are common in nature... as well as in warfare since the beginning of recorded history, are getting a little out of control.

I"m not going to accuse you of being a troll, I kinda think you feel strongly about this topic and I can respect that, but you are making a lot of false assumptions.

Bubbles give the defender a slight advantage, a small window of opportunity, against opponents less powerful than themselves... and a slight head start in avoiding opponents more powerful than themselves, nothing more.

They are easy to deal with if you know how.
They are easy to avoid if you know how.
They are easy to turn against the people using them if you know how.

The trick is simply to gain the experience you need to do so. Without that experience it is very easy to get frustrated and claim it is an unfair, overpowered tactic. But the fact that bubble camps are avoided, escaped, or routed countless times every day in EVE prove pretty emphatically that this is not really the case.

While I'm not directing this at you, but I'm sure there are many people that would be over joyed to click a button and instantly be where ever they wished in game... able to access territories and resources that others have worked a very long time to build up... without any effort or skill involved in the attempt. Rest assured that if that were to transpire it would be the beginning of the end of EVE as we know it. It would no longer have a point, a sense of achievement.

The very people that are claiming to be completely oriented to "building and creating something" are in fact saying "building and creating by stealing from what others have built up and created.

I can't get behind that principal at all.
I can see that bubble camp mania is rooted deeply in this one.


/facepalm

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#51 - 2011-11-20 09:33:40 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
The poster who I was quoting was talking about animals. I could careless about animals. The OP said more or less that warp bubbles make combat dumb too favorable to campers who show no skill. TBH if you believe that warp bubbles is a fair tactic in the realm of EVE, then you would probably support a boost in the bomb area of effect weapon seeing as how you are into RL tactics in EVE. BTW which Army did you serve in?


Just relax, I'm not trying to rake you over the coals.

Your arguments, including denial that such tactics are common in nature... as well as in warfare since the beginning of recorded history, are getting a little out of control.

I"m not going to accuse you of being a troll, I kinda think you feel strongly about this topic and I can respect that, but you are making a lot of false assumptions.

Bubbles give the defender a slight advantage, a small window of opportunity, against opponents less powerful than themselves... and a slight head start in avoiding opponents more powerful than themselves, nothing more.

They are easy to deal with if you know how.
They are easy to avoid if you know how.
They are easy to turn against the people using them if you know how.

The trick is simply to gain the experience you need to do so. Without that experience it is very easy to get frustrated and claim it is an unfair, overpowered tactic. But the fact that bubble camps are avoided, escaped, or routed countless times every day in EVE prove pretty emphatically that this is not really the case.

While I'm not directing this at you, but I'm sure there are many people that would be over joyed to click a button and instantly be where ever they wished in game... able to access territories and resources that others have worked a very long time to build up... without any effort or skill involved in the attempt. Rest assured that if that were to transpire it would be the beginning of the end of EVE as we know it. It would no longer have a point, a sense of achievement.

The very people that are claiming to be completely oriented to "building and creating something" are in fact saying "building and creating by stealing from what others have built up and created.

I can't get behind that principal at all.
I can see that bubble camp mania is rooted deeply in this one.


/facepalm

Dude listen. Nullsec is not the endgame of EVE. You don't need to have 50mil SP to go there. You used to be able to come and go as you please. When I first started playing EVE in 2004, I went there. It was adventurous to say the least. Bubbles are nothing more than a low sec gate camp on steroids. And while a few players can get past them semi regularly, the vast majority do not. Just look at the choke points in your in game map. There is no glory or fun in setting a bunch of bookmarks up to try to evade an over powered I win button for gate campers.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#52 - 2011-11-20 12:44:52 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Nullsec is not the endgame of EVE. You don't need to have 50mil SP to go there. You used to be able to come and go as you please.
…and as luck would have it, you still can.
Quote:
There is no glory or fun in setting a bunch of bookmarks up to try to evade an over powered I win button for gate campers.
Welcome to the war. “Fun” and “glory” has long since departed. What remains, though, are a few well-known spots that are simple to avoid or simply skip over.
Quote:
Bubbles are nothing more than a low sec gate camp on steroids.
Sounds reasonable since nullsec also offers camp-busting methods on steroids and camp-bypass methods on steroids. It's just kind of a beefed-up place.
Quote:
could care less about how animals eat
How much less could you care? A lot? A little? It sounds like you care quite a lot so that leaves a fairly large margin…
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#53 - 2011-11-20 13:38:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Pok Nibin
POINT OF CLARIFICATION: "Choke Points", with regard to game development, not military strategy within an established game. Sorry for the confusion. Game developers know from whence I speak...or should.

(And Tippia, dahlink, must you parse posts? None of the paras you partition are particularly pertinent.)

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#54 - 2011-11-20 13:43:23 UTC
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:
Pok Nibin wrote:
Complete and utter garbage
I'm so glad this isn't your main.
This isn't mine, either. Why didn't you just say, "I can't possibly succeed fighting in EVE wivvout my crutch, the bubble. Don't make me actually have to know how to fight. God knows, if our CEO had to know how to conduct an actual campaign our entire corp would have to return to Hello Kitty!" After all, honesty is the best policy. Ugh

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
The Old Chap
Doomheim
#55 - 2011-11-20 14:43:59 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
wrote:
...stuff...

Dude listen. Nullsec is not the endgame of EVE. You don't need to have 50mil SP to go there. You used to be able to come and go as you please. When I first started playing EVE in 2004, I went there. It was adventurous to say the least. Bubbles are nothing more than a low sec gate camp on steroids. And while a few players can get past them semi regularly, the vast majority do not. Just look at the choke points in your in game map. There is no glory or fun in setting a bunch of bookmarks up to try to evade an over powered I win button for gate campers.


^ THIS

Dude, you speak for the many hi-sec dwellers, many of whom are vets (not all bitter) who prefer to do their own thing in hi-sec rather than submit themselves to the bubbled-up willy-waving megablob alliances that now dominate null.

I had a great time out in Querious with CFS and later with NAGA's 'Big Blue' venture in null, running my hard-won high-end minerals in an adrenaline fuelled ride out through the choke points in nothing but a bog-standard industrial. Happy days.

As one of the many former free-spirited nullsec dwellers who now lives exiled out in hi-sec, who will NEVER submit themselves to a dictatorial alliance, I'd love to see CCP *pop* the bubbles for good.

Look into my eyes...   and tighten that sphincter, kid.
Maldranan
Arma Artificer
#56 - 2011-11-20 15:46:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldranan
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Dude listen. Nullsec is not the endgame of EVE. You don't need to have 50mil SP to go there. You used to be able to come and go as you please. When I first started playing EVE in 2004, I went there. It was adventurous to say the least. Bubbles are nothing more than a low sec gate camp on steroids. And while a few players can get past them semi regularly, the vast majority do not. Just look at the choke points in your in game map.

I've gotten through a great many bubbled gate camps. In fact, I think I've gotten caught once since I came out to null.

The problem here seems to be that those arguing against bubbles seem to be far too obtuse to realize that there are many tactics for successfully using and avoiding bubbles. Honestly, if you had any experience in null-sec combat, you'd be complaining about blobs, not bubbles.

Elrich Kouvo wrote:
There is no glory or fun in setting a bunch of bookmarks up to try to evade an over powered I win button for gate campers.

The OP talked about superior preparation leading to victory. What do you suppose taking the time to create tactical warp points (i.e. bookmarks) is? Again, it basically shows your lack of knowledge on the subject.

I was pretty ignorant of the importance of bookmarks and the skillful use of bubbles until I had flown with a few good FCs, so I can understand the general lack of knowledge on the subject, but it has been addressed a few times already in this thread, so I'm not sure why this idea is persisting.

Lastly, RL != Eve. We're talking about comparing primitive, planet-side combat with different governing physical laws to advanced space combat spanning galaxies. Metaphors can be helpful, but don't take them so far.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#57 - 2011-11-20 17:47:45 UTC
If i recall right every end to every major war in this game has not been due to overwhelming military might.

Fleet Commanders are just a set back.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2011-11-20 18:41:01 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:

Proud warriors would be embarrassed to use such devices.


History is written by the victors. Therefore, the "Proud" or "Glorious" warriors are probably the ones who used an underhanded trick to kick the other guy's ass.

Dodixie > Hek
Dai DIEDIEDIE
Doomheim
#59 - 2011-11-20 18:57:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Dai DIEDIEDIE
8/10 because people thought you were serious.

The OPs previous idea to remove warp scramblers and disruptors received far less attention.
Jenn Makanen
Doomheim
#60 - 2011-11-20 19:15:11 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
The laws of physics have spoken.


Those would be the laws of physics that say no matter travelling faster than the speed of light?

And that's how you easily identify a stupid argument about science fiction.