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Crime & Punishment

 
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CODE Minerbumping query
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Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#81 - 2014-07-15 21:37:42 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Handar Turiant wrote:
I'm sorry? When did a schism take place within the hallowed gardens of the Code that denoted streaming as a violation of your sanctimonious bible of new HighSec? Does James315's HighSec extend to StarCraft 2?

These new orders from our most hallowed leader must be studied and observed!

It would be interesting, content-wise, to read a new testament on minerbumping.com as to how James315 has now incorporated these new commandments into the Eve Mormon faith.

Do the words "publicity stunt" mean anything to you?

Cidanel Afuran wrote:
I edited my post just because I didn't want it to seem like I was saying anything bad about New Order. It just screams 'extortion scheme' to me. Again, I am all for it. Seems like a great way for people to play. Not my thing, but the fact that stuff like this can exist is part of what makes this a good game.

I am also highly suspect of anyone who claims to not make money doing what they do, but that is my paranoia bleeding through Big smile

Keep in mind that some gankers don't ask for ship reimbursements on their catalysts. I didn't while I was in NODD. Its pretty difficult to turn a profit that way because of how rare good drops are off of mining ships. The gankers that do get reimbursements make around 10 mill per gank between module drops and blue loot. This translates into 20-40 million an hour, usually on the lower end of that unless they're in a really active system.

Fleet ganks (orcas and freighters, or smartbomb ganks) have no isk effect on the gankers in them except for whoever runs the fleet. All profits are rolled into more gank ships, and the number of empty freighters we gank keeps us from profiting too much. Usually there's five or so empty freighters (1-2 bill in gank ships lost), and then one that drops a bunch of loot to pay for the next 5-10 ganks. Since joining the new order I'm down around 1.5 billion between my own catalysts, an orca for transporting, and helping finance a smartbomb gank that I wasn't involved in. My net profits from ganking are around 5 mill because I'm not usually the one to scoop loot.


I am putting my tinfoil hat on now, so I know this sounds less than sane...but I have a theory.

I think the guys behind the Code are trying to limit ore production in certain markets so the prices rise. If they have another end to the business funneling that harder-to-find ore into the market, they could make a lot of money through ganking (ie, reducing the supply of ore).

I only say this because I work in financial services IRL and have seen this tried more than a few times in the real world.

Tinfoil hat off.
Gostina Mishina
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2014-07-15 21:38:29 UTC
CODE's roots are in the ISK-doubling scams. "Mining permits" are just another scam, this one designed to be not so labor-intensive for the scammers.
Nathaniel Raynaud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2014-07-15 22:07:35 UTC
you guys sure are reading a lot into a group of people that literally just got together to shoot people who don't want to get shot
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#84 - 2014-07-17 11:01:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiryen O'Bannon
Handar Turiant wrote:
Tengu Grib wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
"We didn't want to gank those miners anyway"

Dude, come the **** on...


The point of the Code is to get people to actually play Eve instead of letting their computer play it for them, those people were actually playing Eve. We had some fun banter with them in local flew around each other in the ice belt and all in all everyone had a more exciting and interesting night than they would have otherwise. We created content for the whole system that night. If you don't think that's a victory for the New Order then I think you've misunderstood something.


Anecdotal examples are argumentative fallacies. One of them does not make it a valid point on the Order as a whole.

As regards letting the computer play..... how about the Code go ganks people multiboxing Tengu or Bomber fleets. If that's not a prime example of letting the computer play, I don't know what is. If the holy aim of the group is to 'stop letting the computer play', then why is a reason for ganking in your Code Violation emails not having a bumpersticker denoting adherence to the Code?

CODE is of course free to gank whomever they want, but this holier than thou 'Crusade' as the saviour of Eve is starting look exceedingly like old fashioned trolling with a very disingenuous veneer of 'making eve better'.

I've recently been in contact with the CODE diplomats, asking where I can report actual bot miners (you across them in belts quite often) in groups of alts with the same name, but nothing ever comes back other than the CODE faq channel, which is a vacuum. It's suggested 'people are listening' there. If the RP and Content side of CODE where the least bit sincere, one would be wise to take such things seriously: that way one would actually feel useful scouting out botters for you guys and genuinely make eve better.

Be that as it may, mining is HELLA dull. When you're scanning, you have multiple screens up and are looking at data: this is not letting the computer play of course, so your statement does not ring true, again.

I realize this is of course just a fart in the wind. I'm slowly turning to the opinion that your content is just trolling, which is viable in New Eden.

So let me finish with: take yourselves more serious, and really get into the reporting and offing of true bot miners. Not just the people scanning or the people who are a month old.


Just understand CODE's "concern" over AFK gameplay is just politicking for their own playstyle. You will never see them actually advocate for specific improvements to the game that would eliminate or reduce afk mining. That would destroy them. It's the same thing with all the "bot aspirant" behavior; you can't "aspire" to bot; you wither use botting software or don't. It's just a way of implying that their targets are borderline rule-breakers to gain advantage in the forum wars.

If you see actual bots, report them to CCP yourself, directly. CODE has no need, no responsibility, and no authority to get involved in the process, and don't actually care. All they're doing is trying to protect their playstyle from imagined potential nerfs, because they, like most highsec criminals, love correlation/causation fallacy and *** hoc ergo propter hoc errors, and imagine that "carebear whining" is what causes nerfs. It has never once occurred to these people that CCP might actually care about the long-term health of the game, despite the fact that it pays CCP's bills.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#85 - 2014-07-17 13:54:39 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:

Just understand CODE's "concern" over AFK gameplay is just politicking for their own playstyle. You will never see them actually advocate for specific improvements to the game that would eliminate or reduce afk mining. That would destroy them. It's the same thing with all the "bot aspirant" behavior; you can't "aspire" to bot; you wither use botting software or don't. It's just a way of implying that their targets are borderline rule-breakers to gain advantage in the forum wars.

If you see actual bots, report them to CCP yourself, directly. CODE has no need, no responsibility, and no authority to get involved in the process, and don't actually care. All they're doing is trying to protect their playstyle from imagined potential nerfs, because they, like most highsec criminals, love correlation/causation fallacy and *** hoc ergo propter hoc errors, and imagine that "carebear whining" is what causes nerfs. It has never once occurred to these people that CCP might actually care about the long-term health of the game, despite the fact that it pays CCP's bills.



Quiet down. You are taking ISK away from New Order's current scam. People aren't supposed to know this!
Aoi Eclipso
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2014-07-17 22:51:38 UTC
Permits in high-sec are a scam, if I had a rat toon I'd specifically target characters with them since they have a false sense of security.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#87 - 2014-07-20 18:40:35 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
I think a month is enough to get familiar with the gist of hisec mining hazards. I was clueless about the danger for a couple weeks but it's pretty hard to ignore a growing body of information..


Mining barges take almost a month to train up by default. Anybody who is in a barge has had some time to get familiar with the game, and most of the 3 week characters are alts, as a true newbie would not skill up that efficiently.
Teimur Leng
Perkone
Caldari State
#88 - 2014-07-21 04:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Teimur Leng
Just got ganked by these guys. Here's how it happened...

- No convo attempt
- No messaging in local (which I was watching)
- They simply warped in their scout into my belt (a jaguar), then warped in two catalysts and ganked my mackinaw.
- Then they told me I was clearly bot aspirant because I dont have a permit :)

My lasers were not off, since I wasnt afk. Infact I had just gotten into the system, got into my mackinaw, and warped to the belt to mine.

A few days prior one of their agents had the courtesy of convo'ing me in local which I responded to and he told me that they give 5-30 seconds to respond to the convo to see if someone is afk/botting or not.

Their rules state that you can be ganked with or without a permit.

So whats the point?

Good thing for me is I am not a miner, nor a mission runner. I just got back into eve after a few years hiatus and will get bank into low/null sec soon after getting my bearings.

The bad thing is that these guys try to enforce a code that is meaningless and worthless to anyone but them, since they dont follow the code themselves.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#89 - 2014-07-21 04:57:57 UTC
Teimur Leng wrote:
Just got ganked by these guys. Here's how it happened...

- No convo attempt
- No messaging in local (which I was watching)
- They simply warped in their scout into my belt (a jaguar), then warped in two catalysts and ganked my mackinaw.
- Then they told me I was clearly bot aspirant because I dont have a permit :)

My lasers were not off, since I wasnt afk. Infact I had just gotten into the system, got into my mackinaw, and warped to the belt to mine.

A few days prior one of their agents had the courtesy of convo'ing me in local which I responded to and he told me that they give 5-30 seconds to respond to the convo to see if someone is afk/botting or not.

Their rules state that you can be ganked with or without a permit.

So whats the point?

Good thing for me is I am not a miner, nor a mission runner. I just got back into eve after a few years hiatus and will get bank into low/null sec soon after getting my bearings.

The bad thing is that these guys try to enforce a code that is meaningless and worthless to anyone but them, since they dont follow the code themselves.

Did you have a mining permit? If not then that's why you were destroyed. They don't need to check if you're AFK or convo you in local or elsewhere as you're not code compliment by not having a permit.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Teimur Leng
Perkone
Caldari State
#90 - 2014-07-21 05:00:04 UTC
Your code states that permit or not you can gank if you wish. Hence I dont have a permit :)
Black Pedro
Mine.
#91 - 2014-07-21 10:59:47 UTC
Teimur Leng wrote:
Your code states that permit or not you can gank if you wish. Hence I dont have a permit :)


I think you need to take a closer look at the Code as that is not what is says. It says that you will not a target if you remain Code-compliant. Having a a permit is one requisite yes, but I think you will find that if you follow the other tenets (staying at your keyboard, fitting some tank, etc.) you will make yourself near impervious to all gankers, New Order affiliated or not.

As has been said many times before in this thread the permit is not a get-out-of-the-consequences-of-AFKing-free card that allows you to mine with no risk.

If you get a permit and follow the Code you will be left alone. If you choose to mine AFK or mine without a permit, odds are your mining barge will eventually explode. I understand that for a true low-sec PvPer like yourself 10M ISK for a year may not be a good value proposition as you are "not a miner", but a growing number of career high-sec miners have done the calculation and realize the value in getting a permit, staying Code-compliant and showing their support for our battle against the botters and bot-aspirants.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Eyrun Mangeiri
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2014-07-21 11:00:13 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
The simple answer is, someone who is not bot-aspirant and participating in the community would soon find out about The New Order, and promptly purchase a permit. So, not knowing about The New Order is prima facie evidence of bot-aspirant behaviour, of which the punishment is ganking.

Also, to address the popular misconception that a permit prevents ganking. This is false. Getting ganked automatically invalidates a permit. People who have permits never get ganked, so, if a supposed permit holder DOES get ganked, obviously they were violating the Code. Invalid permit means ganking ensues.


So buying a permit does nothing. Good to know.


That's not what he said. You need to purchase a permit *and* comply with the Code in order to avoid being prosecuted by Knights of the New Order.


Yes, but complying with the Code will never get you ganked in the first place even if you don't have a permit. You will check local and D-Scan, play like you would in low or nullsec and/or tank your ship, etc. So the permit does nothing.

I can see what you see not - vision milky then eyes rot. When you turn they will be gone - whispering their hidden song.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#93 - 2014-07-21 11:57:33 UTC
Eyrun Mangeiri wrote:


Yes, but complying with the Code will never get you ganked in the first place even if you don't have a permit. You will check local and D-Scan, play like you would in low or nullsec and/or tank your ship, etc. So the permit does nothing.


And there's the rub - if you do this you are obeying the Code (well most of it anyway) and we win.

The New Order always wins.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Ria Nieyli
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#94 - 2014-07-21 13:29:13 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Eyrun Mangeiri wrote:


Yes, but complying with the Code will never get you ganked in the first place even if you don't have a permit. You will check local and D-Scan, play like you would in low or nullsec and/or tank your ship, etc. So the permit does nothing.


And there's the rub - if you do this you are obeying the Code (well most of it anyway) and we win.

The New Order always wins.


Congratulations, you have won eve. Time to unsub.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2014-07-21 14:46:31 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Teimur Leng wrote:
Your code states that permit or not you can gank if you wish. Hence I dont have a permit :)


I think you need to take a closer look at the Code as that is not what is says. It says that you will not a target if you remain Code-compliant. Having a a permit is one requisite yes, but I think you will find that if you follow the other tenets (staying at your keyboard, fitting some tank, etc.) you will make yourself near impervious to all gankers, New Order affiliated or not.

As has been said many times before in this thread the permit is not a get-out-of-the-consequences-of-AFKing-free card that allows you to mine with no risk.

If you get a permit and follow the Code you will be left alone. If you choose to mine AFK or mine without a permit, odds are your mining barge will eventually explode. I understand that for a true low-sec PvPer like yourself 10M ISK for a year may not be a good value proposition as you are "not a miner", but a growing number of career high-sec miners have done the calculation and realize the value in getting a permit, staying Code-compliant and showing their support for our battle against the botters and bot-aspirants.



Teimur, Black Pedro is correct on all counts. Including that the New Order always wins.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Edmond Lewis
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#96 - 2014-07-22 01:20:39 UTC
Handar Turiant wrote:
Little code interpretation question:

Should one be mining without a permit, does one get the opportunity to purchase it before being suicide ganked, or do the Code Folk gank everything not on their little list without the agent in question offering to purchase redemption through permit?



They'll gank you with the permit and just claim your somehow weren't in compliance with somthing
Hyo Tae-hyun
Doomheim
#97 - 2014-07-22 06:52:57 UTC
Edmond Lewis wrote:
Handar Turiant wrote:
Little code interpretation question:

Should one be mining without a permit, does one get the opportunity to purchase it before being suicide ganked, or do the Code Folk gank everything not on their little list without the agent in question offering to purchase redemption through permit?



They'll gank you with the permit and just claim your somehow weren't in compliance with somthing


That's because nobody is paying attention to them and they are running out of ways to pretend they are relevant. It's cute to watch them beg for attention though...I am certain the 12 people who actually pay for mining permits think they are just oh so scary.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#98 - 2014-07-22 07:31:00 UTC
Teimur Leng wrote:
Just got ganked by these guys. Here's how it happened...

- No convo attempt
- No messaging in local (which I was watching)
- They simply warped in their scout into my belt (a jaguar), then warped in two catalysts and ganked my mackinaw.
- Then they told me I was clearly bot aspirant because I dont have a permit :)

My lasers were not off, since I wasnt afk. Infact I had just gotten into the system, got into my mackinaw, and warped to the belt to mine.

A few days prior one of their agents had the courtesy of convo'ing me in local which I responded to and he told me that they give 5-30 seconds to respond to the convo to see if someone is afk/botting or not.



That convo prior was a good time to set the whole code alliance to -10 to make them stand out in local, at which point it's time to leave the belt when you see them in local, not when they get to grid. In a week of mining I already have identified 2 non alliance code scouts simply because the miners I mine with identified them from prior ganks. Ie group intel works in any sec, as does not getting locked by an obvious enemy. Likewise a fleet turns friendlies in local purple which make potential risks that aren't purple easier to spot.

Whether or not you thought code was obeying any internal rules (a bad idea), it's plain they kill miners thus aren't your friends. -10 is appropriate.
Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#99 - 2014-07-23 15:57:00 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Eyrun Mangeiri wrote:


Yes, but complying with the Code will never get you ganked in the first place even if you don't have a permit. You will check local and D-Scan, play like you would in low or nullsec and/or tank your ship, etc. So the permit does nothing.


And there's the rub - if you do this you are obeying the Code (well most of it anyway) and we win.

The New Order always wins.


When your entire play style is ganking newbies, how is that something to brag about?
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2014-07-23 20:30:12 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Eyrun Mangeiri wrote:


Yes, but complying with the Code will never get you ganked in the first place even if you don't have a permit. You will check local and D-Scan, play like you would in low or nullsec and/or tank your ship, etc. So the permit does nothing.


And there's the rub - if you do this you are obeying the Code (well most of it anyway) and we win.

The New Order always wins.


When your entire play style is ganking newbies, how is that something to brag about?


Yes, all Code ganks is newbies, we especially enjoy ganking newbie Jump Freighter pilots. I myself really enjoy killing newbie Skiff pilots. I really love it when they are all like "I've only been playing the game for 2 weeks, how is this a good way to welcome people to Eve?"

Everyone should be welcomed to Eve with antimatter, that's how I was welcomed. And it only made me want to play the game more.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.