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Why new people are critical to EvE

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Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#101 - 2014-07-07 14:10:00 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Why should people who LIKE EVE be forgotten for people who don't like it. You don't see us in WoW going "damn, this game needs spaceships and killmails".


Actually, the one or two times I played wow, that was exactly what I said.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#102 - 2014-07-07 17:47:23 UTC
TL;DR but as a 10 year vet I exert my entitlement to reply to any damn thread I want... deal with it.

New people are important to get into eve. New blood, be it a player who never once tried eve, or a player who tired it and quit but is giving a second look, or the Vet who got burnt out and if taking a small/large break is important.

However, the op's arguments are a tad.. mm wrong and or bad.

Vets and others tell noobs to 'return to wow' or 'gtfo' when they act like idiots.

What do I mean by this? Well people have either 1) not remembered a skill they should of learned in school called research. 2) thought eve was something it wasn't (see 1) 3) they want eve to become something its not because they think there idea is awesome, or this old game they used to play if eve added things in it form that would make eve better.

Here are the issues with these thoughts...

First, players who make stupid ideas don't complete the thought process. For example "Hey guys, I think the sov mechanic need to change and we need to add constalation sov, where is you own 51% of the systems in the constalation you can have a system that can't be taken until you you drop to 49% control! Ain't this a great idea?" Ignoring that CCP did they VERY stupid idea, yes it was stupid, if you take this idea to its logical concolution... I.e. will be near impossible to conquer anything and you have a massive proliferation of titans and mom's (which is pretty much what happened) then you will see that the idea is bad. New players then take the initial critisim as to WHY its horrible, and try to twist and bend the critizim into the poster beign wrong. This then brings ou the trolls and other vets who now get the 'you are stupid' look and then you get the 'just go back to wow'


second, new players who jump into eve, find its not what they want but you know if you added (dumb idea here) it would make a huge improvement, are like the people who walk into your house without actually understanding why things are as they are and then make suggestion to redecorate. You as the home owner would roll your eyes and eventually just be like 'get out.' The issue with these type of ideas is noobs who make them, and even a few vets who do, don't fully understand the reason or the mechanic behind why this is. Thus they look foolish.

third, people come to eve with a set mindset. I mean after playing other mmo's that are not sandboxes (there are very few sandbox mmo's out there) they don't grasp the concept, and think eve is a boring theme park. Its like you go to the beach and expect it to be like Disneyland, only to find out that no, its not. You then become disappointed. With eve though, you have the chance to say 'hey beach owner, you know if you added a rollercoaster here..." only to find out everyone else on the beach likes the beach as it is and thinks a rollercoaster will ruin, destroy, or is a stupid idea.

Its mostly about mindset. That's the problem. You see it all the time on the forums "man my sp's are low I won't ever catch up" "man we need to hunt a space wale that gives purole loot!" "man I keep dying to this ship it must be overpowered, there is no way I can suck' etc.

CCP can't change the mindset, only we can. But we get tired or repeating ourselves. At least one a week I see a post about the SP gap... it gets irritating and annoying.

But that's pretty much why you get people telling other to just shut up and get out. If they were flexable and would learn/take the critisium then you see thouse players become die hard eve players. The ones who won't bend, break and leave.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#103 - 2014-07-07 17:48:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:
Nose' Feliciano wrote:
What EVE is like:

when I was a kid, i got it in my head to build a tower out of a single deck playing cards.

Just to see if i could do it.

It took me weeks of tries and retries. A straight up tower is not the same as a house of cards, so stability was always an issue.

It becameran obsession. One day, without fanfare I did it....and I won my own personal "EVE."



No that's not EvE. That's the kind of game I'd love EvE to be.. BUT.. EvE is absolutely you trying to build this 'cards tower' BUT, being EvE, there's no way to close your front door, and every time you start building, the kid next door comes running in kicks it down laughing, and runs away again... time and time again, you build one layer and the kid kicks it down. When you confront him, your parents tell YOU OFF, and as he runs home crying, you get to your second level for the first time ever, and the kid returns with 30 of his friends and kicks down your tower. As you start to build up again, he comes back on his own and kicks it down.

Newbros are in favour of being able to close the door and get a bit of privacy whilst building said card tower. Bittervets want you never to build the card tower because they already have theirs, and they're bored, and the only thing to do is prey on the less established for sport.

Decide what side you're on..


The problem with such black and white thinking is that you always get your card tower kicked over.

I guess it never occured to you that since you can't close the door to your house, you could make frienes to roflstomp the neighbor kid when he comes over, or build a moat around the door and get some alligators to chomp his ass (ie stay in high sec and use GATORCORD). Or build a fake tower for him to kick over and when he does all of your toys from the toy chest you rigged above it falls on him and kills him (HOT DROP) etc etc.

THAT is what EVE is, figuing it out for your self. The 'standard MMO player (and it seems EVE players like you) don't ever want to do any of that. They want CCP to 'fix it' for them.

Wanting intervention instead of seeing a problem as a challenge is the number 1 indicator of the fact that one does not belong in EVE.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#104 - 2014-07-07 17:55:41 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:
Nose' Feliciano wrote:
What EVE is like:

when I was a kid, i got it in my head to build a tower out of a single deck playing cards.

Just to see if i could do it.

It took me weeks of tries and retries. A straight up tower is not the same as a house of cards, so stability was always an issue.

It becameran obsession. One day, without fanfare I did it....and I won my own personal "EVE."



No that's not EvE. That's the kind of game I'd love EvE to be.. BUT.. EvE is absolutely you trying to build this 'cards tower' BUT, being EvE, there's no way to close your front door, and every time you start building, the kid next door comes running in kicks it down laughing, and runs away again... time and time again, you build one layer and the kid kicks it down. When you confront him, your parents tell YOU OFF, and as he runs home crying, you get to your second level for the first time ever, and the kid returns with 30 of his friends and kicks down your tower. As you start to build up again, he comes back on his own and kicks it down.

Newbros are in favour of being able to close the door and get a bit of privacy whilst building said card tower. Bittervets want you never to build the card tower because they already have theirs, and they're bored, and the only thing to do is prey on the less established for sport.

Decide what side you're on..


The problem with such black and white thinking is that you always get your card tower kicked over.

I guess it never occured to you that since you can't close the door to your house, you could make frienes to roflstomp the neighbor kid when he comes over, or build a moat around the door and get some alligators to chomp his ass (ie stay in high sec and use GATORCORD). Or build a fake tower for him to kick over and when he does all of your toys from the toy chest you rigged above it falls on him and kills him (HOT DROP) etc etc.

THAT is what EVE is, figuing it out for your self. The 'standard MMO player (and it seems EVE players like you) don't ever want to do any of that. They want CCP to 'fix it' for them.

Wanting intervention instead of seeing a problem as a challenge is the number 1 indicator of the fact that one does not belong in EVE.


This, exactly this

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#105 - 2014-07-07 18:01:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mithandra wrote:
I see a lot of "New players don't understand what eve is about"

Obviously they don't; they are NEW, just like we all were at one point.
There's a difference between new players and new players, or perhaps more accurately between “don't understand” and “don't understand”.

There's (unfortunately) no shortage of players who come into EVE with an understanding of what it is… only that understanding is wrong. They expect it to work and behave like all the other MMOs they've tried, and they're up for a rude awakening. To make matters worse, they also have a tendency to skip over crucial learning steps because, hey, they've played these games before so they know the score… right? So they don't ask in rookie channel; they draw incorrect conclusions based on naming conventions (eg. high sec = “safe” sec); and they fall afoul of the ultimate account killer: they don't reach out to other players.

So it's not just a matter of some getting it and some not, but of some getting it wrong before they even start. The first two are fair enough: EVE can be complicated, and even if you get past that, you may or may not like it. It's when they strike down a path that has little or no bearing on the actual game that it becomes problematic to steer the whole thing right again. Those initial assumptions die hard.



I just dealt with a guy like that. He came to the game at the invitation of a friend of mine and so was invited to our private carebearin channel.

From the get go it was a F'd up. This guy would ask a question, be told not only the answer, but WHY it was that way (examples, why you don't mix tank types or gun types etc), totally ignore all of it and do it his own way (because he's smarter than the rest of us), DIE in a lvl 1 mission, then declare the game 'broken'.

He was once in a mission in a Dessie with lasers, autocannons and missiles. He'd fie the ACs at close target, then add the lasers when the shield were gone "because lasers should cut through armor like a scalpel through flesh" and save the missiles for the "killing blow" (then rage when the elite frig he was trying to kill wouldn't die because npcs shiled and/or armor rep). We told them how dumb it all was, and even with mixed guns, just fire everything you have cap for and things will die quicker.

In one ear and out the other.

We gave him a bit of isk, gave him fitting tips, ran missions with him, invited him to tag along when we'd find an easyish (3-4/10) plex in high sec etc etc. He just could not get the idea that EVE was the way it was, his biggest complaint was that 'his skills didn't grow as he used them but were time based'. He was a nightmare. He also like to talk real world politics and was so confident he knew the key to mid east peace I wondered why he wasn't a U.N. ambassador yet....

That's what it comes down to: intelligence and personality. Some people just won't have enough of either to play EVE. That's ok, there are other games out there. But this one is ours... Good newbies welcome of course.
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#106 - 2014-07-07 19:07:40 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
While it's a little bit of an old article, this does a pretty good job of explaining how CCP feels about "attracting new people".

TL;DR: CCP wants to keep things difficult at first, as it serves as a great filter for getting the right kind of person into the game.


tldr

"We're often asked why we don't just fix it, why we don't make it easier to start," he says. "You could look at this as a great weakness. We lose more than half the people in the first six months, so why don't we make it easier and more accessible? It's important to note that this is the filter that creates the community. Messing about too much with it would really affect what keeps people playing the game... The people that have this mindset are the game's strongest asset."

More than 3 million people have tried EVE. A fraction remain. Why? Probably because most of them want to play a game. And EVE isn't a game. It's a revolution.


Thank me later :D
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#107 - 2014-07-07 22:30:16 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Just for the record, most of us aren't against new people coming to the game to enjoy the game for what it is. We're against people coming to this game & demanding that things be changed to make it more like a themepark to suit their desires. EVE is not a suitable game for that kind of person, who cares if they leave?


I can't help but think that switching 'new people' with 'bitter vet' in the quoted statement would be as equally accurate. Tell me they haven't already turned null into a themepark.

Mr Epeen Cool



High sec: War dec anyone you like (if you can afford it), attack anyone you like (but Concord will hammer you in many cases), go anywhere you like, do anything you like, you pay no one except CCP for the privilege of play the game.

Null sec blue blanket: You can only attack this approved list of people, and only in these approved zones. As a renter, you are only allowed to operate in highly prescribed areas. As a regular line member, if attack someone you are not supposed to, you will be swiftly banned from the null sec areas controlled by the various parties in agreements. If you do not pay your monthly rental fees and tithes to the feudal lords promptly, you are kicked from the null sec areas controlled by the various parties in the agreements. If you are a renter, you are only allowed specific actions which are PVE-only activities, within your prescribed space, and not allowed to deviate from that, under pain of destruction and banishment.

Yup, sov null sec certainly is a the wild west, compared to the "themepark" of high sec.


The solution is clear: Nerf highsec incursions.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2014-07-08 01:27:48 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Just for the record, most of us aren't against new people coming to the game to enjoy the game for what it is. We're against people coming to this game & demanding that things be changed to make it more like a themepark to suit their desires. EVE is not a suitable game for that kind of person, who cares if they leave?


I can't help but think that switching 'new people' with 'bitter vet' in the quoted statement would be as equally accurate. Tell me they haven't already turned null into a themepark.

Mr Epeen Cool



High sec: War dec anyone you like (if you can afford it), attack anyone you like (but Concord will hammer you in many cases), go anywhere you like, do anything you like, you pay no one except CCP for the privilege of play the game.

Null sec blue blanket: You can only attack this approved list of people, and only in these approved zones. As a renter, you are only allowed to operate in highly prescribed areas. As a regular line member, if attack someone you are not supposed to, you will be swiftly banned from the null sec areas controlled by the various parties in agreements. If you do not pay your monthly rental fees and tithes to the feudal lords promptly, you are kicked from the null sec areas controlled by the various parties in the agreements. If you are a renter, you are only allowed specific actions which are PVE-only activities, within your prescribed space, and not allowed to deviate from that, under pain of destruction and banishment.

Yup, sov null sec certainly is a the wild west, compared to the "themepark" of high sec.




The solution is clear: Nerf highsec incursions.


ummh what have highsec incursions got to do with the allegation that bluesec has become carebear central ?
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#109 - 2014-07-08 01:43:56 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

That's what it comes down to: intelligence and personality. Some people just won't have enough of either to play EVE. That's ok, there are other games out there. But this one is ours... Good newbies welcome of course.


To be honest, you'd have to be pretty stupid not to be able to play EVE. Intelligence has little to do with new pilots like the one you described.

Entitlement and arrogance has everything to do with it. Unfortunately that attitude seems to be generational and we just have to try and show patience with a certain age range that want to play this game. Though you seem to have shown more patience than I would have with that guy. I'd have been blowing up his ships pretty quickly.

Mr Epeen Cool
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#110 - 2014-07-08 02:50:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Romanov
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
ummh what have highsec incursions got to do with the allegation that bluesec has become carebear central ?


He is making reference to the theory that many null residents are running incursion ALTs instead of trying to live in null because the ISK/security ratio is unmatched compared to any other earning activity.

Thus, if highsec incursions were nerfed so the earning potential was properly in line with the risk, the nullsec players would go back home.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#111 - 2014-07-08 03:21:14 UTC
Arkady Romanov wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
ummh what have highsec incursions got to do with the allegation that bluesec has become carebear central ?

He is making reference to the theory that many null residents are running incursion ALTs instead of trying to live in null because the ISK/security ratio is unmatched compared to any other earning activity.

Thus, if highsec incursions were needed so the earning potential was properly in line with the risk, the nullsec players would go back home.

Go back home and ... carebear in bluesec instead of concordsec?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#112 - 2014-07-08 04:17:53 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Arkady Romanov wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
ummh what have highsec incursions got to do with the allegation that bluesec has become carebear central ?

He is making reference to the theory that many null residents are running incursion ALTs instead of trying to live in null because the ISK/security ratio is unmatched compared to any other earning activity.

Thus, if highsec incursions were needed so the earning potential was properly in line with the risk, the nullsec players would go back home.

Go back home and ... carebear in bluesec instead of concordsec?


Well I could AFK a bunch of Ishtars or carriers in null, but then I could just run incursions in highsec for a higher payout which also gives me intel on who is flying what bling fit. Highsec is way more profitable for plebian isk making activities.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#113 - 2014-07-08 04:30:28 UTC
"Wanting intervention instead of seeing a problem as a challenge is the number 1 indicator of the fact that one does not belong in EVE."

"Steering people down the right path..."

Does anyone else see how self limiting these statements are? In a game of limitless possibility, a sandbox, is there a right path? In a game full of creativity no one can imagine a place for people that would prefer and accept intervention?

At some point some people should think of how to foster new players, not exploit or marginalize them. They should do this as if the future existence of the game they play depends on it. In the end it will benefit us all.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#114 - 2014-07-08 04:31:54 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:

Does anyone else see how self limiting these statements are? In a game of limitless possibility, a sandbox, is there a right path? In a game full of creativity no one can imagine a place for people that would prefer and accept intervention?


I can easily imagine a place for those people. It's called WoW.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#115 - 2014-07-08 04:40:44 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:

Does anyone else see how self limiting these statements are? In a game of limitless possibility, a sandbox, is there a right path? In a game full of creativity no one can imagine a place for people that would prefer and accept intervention?


I can easily imagine a place for those people. It's called WoW.


To reiterate on a further thought on this matter.

No, there is not room in EVE for everybody. There is room in EVE for everybody who wants to play EVE, but there is not room for people who want to change EVE into something that it's not. Those people can go jump in a lake.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Qalix
Long Jump.
#116 - 2014-07-08 06:08:35 UTC
We're past the point of no return. It's all about bucket lists and last goals.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#117 - 2014-07-08 06:14:53 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
"Wanting intervention instead of seeing a problem as a challenge is the number 1 indicator of the fact that one does not belong in EVE."

"Steering people down the right path..."

Does anyone else see how self limiting these statements are? In a game of limitless possibility, a sandbox, is there a right path? In a game full of creativity no one can imagine a place for people that would prefer and accept intervention?

At some point some people should think of how to foster new players, not exploit or marginalize them. They should do this as if the future existence of the game they play depends on it. In the end it will benefit us all.



I said "Wanting intervention instead of seeing a problem as a challenge is the number 1 indicator of the fact that one does not belong in EVE."

# 2 is believing that the future of a game that has existed for 11 years while turinng off most "new players" is some how dependent on the same un-EVElike types for it's future.

Nothing wrong with new people, the RIGHT new people. Innovators and Inventers rather than beggars and whiners (CCP could do a better job of attracting such people, which means stop spending money advertising in MMO E-zines and sites because average MMO gamers are the least creative people on Earth).

Why is this concept so hard for you to understand?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#118 - 2014-07-08 06:17:08 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
Does anyone else see how self limiting these statements are? In a game of limitless possibility, a sandbox, is there a right path? In a game full of creativity no one can imagine a place for people that would prefer and accept intervention?
Yes, there is a right path.
There is exactly one kind of gameplay that sandbox can't offer: non-sandbox gameplay. Likewise, there's exactly one kind of gameplay that a multiplayer game can't offer: single-player gameplay. EVE is a multiplayer sandbox — that means that at least three out of four variations are excluded from what the game can do.

That is not a problem. There are plenty of other games that offer the other intersections between those two design axes. People who want one of those other cells in the matrix should pick a game other than EVE.
Reiisha
#119 - 2014-07-08 07:46:19 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
First, I will never understand why people would want people to leave their subscription game. Yet we hear the "maybe EvE isn't for you" or "go play WoW all the time". Do you understand how subscription games are funded?

That is reason number one new players are important to EvE, they pay cash. There are exceptions, but for the most part new players pay for subs. They also pay for plex as wealth accumulation in this game can be very slow at the start. There are veterans who put their money where their mouth is, but for new players it is almost a given.

Reason number two is they buy off the market. They do not come into being in a guild that produces all that their members need. Instead they grind this and that and go to the market to buy the next step in their ascension. There is a reason why items that a bitter vet wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole sell on the market.

But more importantly, imo, new players bring new ideas. In a game that bills itself as a sandbox with extremely limited content provided by the developers new ideas are the only thing that keep this game fresh. Another Hulkageddon or permit scam or insidious corporate takeover or blue donut will not keep people interested for very long. The next big thing will not come from someone with 15000 posts defending things the way they are. It will most likely come from someone just joining the game that says "what if?"

tl:dr give the kid a chance.


You've fallen into a common beginner's trap: You think that EVE should be for everyone.

EVE carved out a niche and despite all its flaws, it's very good at what it actually does. Changing it to make everyone feel welcome means changing the identity of the game.

This is exactly why so many games have failed, or went F2P - They wanted to be for everyone, so they just wanted to be like WoW. Problem is, WoW already exists, so why would anyone want to play a copy with at least 10 years less development time and content?

Both CCP and EVE players have no problem telling someone if the game isn't the right fit for them, as it should be.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Veld San
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2014-07-08 08:20:53 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Eve is like S&M.

Some people find pleasure in it and others find it just painful.


lawl

am one of the new players that quit after a couple months. i didnt find it painful, just stupid, outdated and full of pricks. moved on to other games.