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The Abaddon

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Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2014-07-07 11:54:20 UTC
Its missing the entire thread conversation though, because we're not discussing brawling. Also beam fits aren't awful. Its the tach fits that are awful.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#42 - 2014-07-07 12:00:58 UTC
No beam fits are awful.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-07-07 15:11:20 UTC
Fascinating conversation. Really. So glad we had it.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#44 - 2014-07-07 16:06:48 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
This is the problem with the Abaddon:

http://i.imgur.com/U2ml1BC.png

10k EHP is not worth having less range, less DPS, 66% of the speed, a gigantic signature radius that gets destroyed by bombers, and double the cap drain. The cap drain on the Abaddon is so bad you can't even run the guns alone on a medium injector, and you can't fit a heavy injector without two grid mods.


It's accepted that Tachyons are 1-level above 1400's/425's.

here's the setup dropped down to Mega Beams.

[Abaddon, Test]

Heat Sink II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Tracking Enhancer II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Similar results, but with more DPS and EHP.

The cap lasts 25 minutes. Anything that lasts more than 10 minutes is generally acceptablea s cap stable in PVP. 1 Cycle of a capital energy transfer will give you another 10 minutes.

As for the the benefits? I'd probably rank the abaddon better as a 70-90km fighter thanks to scorch. Look up 'HellCat'.

If you want a sniper battleship i'd go with Maelstrom or Rokh.

Apples and oranges.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2014-07-07 18:41:32 UTC
Pulses Abaddons are great for shooting stuff up to 70k max. They were used a lot in the olden days but the nerf to resists, battleship rebalancing, the railgun buff and the sentry drone meta changed the scene of war. They don't fit within a fleet doctrine anymore.

Low sp characters are better served with an apocalypse or megathron while high sp players can do more with navy apocalypse or navy geddon.

Tachyons can only be realistically fit to 3 ships, neither of them being the Abaddon.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2014-07-07 19:02:47 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Also literally every fit in this tread is awful.

Okay if all the fits in this thread are awful please post your fit that isn't.


K

[Abaddon, Hellcat 2P S]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener
True Sansha Armor Kinetic Hardener
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Heat Sink II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II

Bouncer II x3

A fairly standard Hellcat style Abaddon, ~700 DPS@ 60 with Sentries, ~900 at brawling ranges with Conflag, 830 with INMF, 219K EHP before implants or heat, good resists across the board. You can also run a single plate fit which pushes the DPS up nicely but you go down to around 175K EHP pre-heat.

No it isn't the same as a rail mega, but thats because it isn't a rail mega, it is a close-mid range brawling BS that, with good positioning will out-tank and out-gank any other fleet BS in the 60K bracket while having the tracking to easily engage HACs and the like.


1. Don't put T2 rigs on a fleet ship, one of them increases the post-insurance cost of the fit by like 50%.

2. EANM + hardener fits are bad in fleets because you apply two stacking penalties to your armor ganglinks. Replacing the EANM with a thermic hardener is a strict upgrade. You also can't overheat EANMs. Trust me, when you've got bombs coming in you want to be able to overheat your hardeners and cut 25% off the bomb damage.

3. You still have the problem of only doing 5% more DPS than a Megathron in the 40-60km range bracket, and doing far less than a Mega at close ranges and zero DPS past 60km. You then still have the problems of a gigantic signature radius, monster cap drain, and slow speed. Did you know that when you factor in the Abaddon's 38% lower speed and 25% increased sig, the Megathron with railguns and antimatter actually tracks better than the Abaddon with pulses and Scorch?

Also, there's this from Maeltstome's post:

Quote:

Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane


Holy ****, why do people DO this? Honestly, having to fit 20-25m faction hardeners is bad enough, don't put two 60m EANMs on your goddamn fleet battleship. You just close to tripled the post-insurance cost of this ship.

If you're going to spend that much ISK, just fly an Ishtar. Cost is the ONLY advantage battleships have over Ishtars, so if your fleet BS costs close to 200m ISK after insurance, you're absolutely doing it wrong.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#47 - 2014-07-07 21:48:00 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:

It's accepted that Tachyons are 1-level above 1400's/425's.

This. If you want to fit an Abbadon and compare it to a Mega, fit comparable weapons. You'll find yourself using fewer fittings mods and more mods that are actually useful. Tach fits are supposed to be glass cannon fits by virtue of the fact that you can't easily fit anything else. Not quite Oracle-level glass cannon, but not fully-tanked fleet BS level either.

Also, why are people who are focused on focused on fleet fits not looking at the Apoc? Same slot layout, double bonuses to damage (in a sniper fit, range and tracking = damage), better base cap and mobility. The Abbadon isn't meant to be a a sniper boat in my mind.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2014-07-07 22:11:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:

It's accepted that Tachyons are 1-level above 1400's/425's.

This. If you want to fit an Abbadon and compare it to a Mega, fit comparable weapons. You'll find yourself using fewer fittings mods and more mods that are actually useful. Tach fits are supposed to be glass cannon fits by virtue of the fact that you can't easily fit anything else. Not quite Oracle-level glass cannon, but not fully-tanked fleet BS level either.

Also, why are people who are focused on focused on fleet fits not looking at the Apoc? Same slot layout, double bonuses to damage (in a sniper fit, range and tracking = damage), better base cap and mobility. The Abbadon isn't meant to be a a sniper boat in my mind.


Personally, I don't like Mega Beams at all. A 7x Tachyon II fit does 95% of the DPS of an 8x Mega Beam II fit, with more range, less cap use, and less fitting. Since, like you said, the Apoc essentially uses its range bonus as a damage bonus, the slightly reduced damage is pretty much a wash with the slightly increased range.

Also, you need 2 faction hardeners to fit 8 Mega Beams on an Apoc, but you only need 1 on a 7 Tachyon II fit. After that, you have this problem:

http://i.imgur.com/TVWVTS1.png

Megathron 1 has more DPS than either Apoc, with vastly more EHP. Megathron 2 has the same EHP as the Apocs, but vastly more DPS. On top of that, half the cap use, and the DPS gulf is even bigger between the two ships if you're closer than 52km and the Mega can use antimatter. There's really no good reason to fly the Apoc as long as the probing and warping system makes it very hard to snipe at ranges >150km.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#49 - 2014-07-07 22:49:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Xequecal wrote:
Personally, I don't like Mega Beams at all. A 7x Tachyon II fit does 95% of the DPS of an 8x Mega Beam II fit, with more range, less cap use, and less fitting. Since, like you said, the Apoc essentially uses its range bonus as a damage bonus, the slightly reduced damage is pretty much a wash with the slightly increased range.

Also, you need 2 faction hardeners to fit 8 Mega Beams on an Apoc, but you only need 1 on a 7 Tachyon II fit. After that, you have this problem:

http://i.imgur.com/TVWVTS1.png

Megathron 1 has more DPS than either Apoc, with vastly more EHP. Megathron 2 has the same EHP as the Apocs, but vastly more DPS. On top of that, half the cap use, and the DPS gulf is even bigger between the two ships if you're closer than 52km and the Mega can use antimatter. There's really no good reason to fly the Apoc as long as the probing and warping system makes it very hard to snipe at ranges >150km.


Valid points, but there is more to a ship than the EHP and DPS listed in EFT. Some things to keep in mind (all other considerations being equal):

1. A tach Apoc will have better tracking than a rail Mega. This will help overcome some of the difference in paper DPS, but admittedly not much.

2. A tach Apoc will have a considerably higher alpha strike than a rail Mega. In today's meta of needing to overcome reps, this is not to be ignored lightly.

3. A mega pulse Apoc will have considerably better tracking than a rail Mega. As with #1, this will improve your DPS slightly, but not by a huge margin. However, if your fleet ever finds itself needing to shoot at anything smaller than a battleship that happens to be moving, a mega pulse Apoc will do a much better job than a rail Mega.

A rail Mega is an incredibly useful fleet ship, I would say bordering on overpowered. I used to fly them, so I'm well aware of their capabilities. But other battleships do have their purpose in a BS fleet, even if they don't seem to match the performance of a rail Mega in EFT.

Having said all of that, I do agree that current battleships and battleship-class weapons are balanced against engagement ranges past 150km. So long as the current meta caps ranges to 150km or less, the utility of some ships (the Rokh comes to mind) will be limited while the utility of ships like the Mega will be amplified.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-07-08 00:18:55 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:

It's accepted that Tachyons are 1-level above 1400's/425's.

This. If you want to fit an Abbadon and compare it to a Mega, fit comparable weapons. You'll find yourself using fewer fittings mods and more mods that are actually useful. Tach fits are supposed to be glass cannon fits by virtue of the fact that you can't easily fit anything else. Not quite Oracle-level glass cannon, but not fully-tanked fleet BS level either.

Also, why are people who are focused on focused on fleet fits not looking at the Apoc? Same slot layout, double bonuses to damage (in a sniper fit, range and tracking = damage), better base cap and mobility. The Abbadon isn't meant to be a a sniper boat in my mind.


Personally, I don't like Mega Beams at all. A 7x Tachyon II fit does 95% of the DPS of an 8x Mega Beam II fit, with more range, less cap use, and less fitting. Since, like you said, the Apoc essentially uses its range bonus as a damage bonus, the slightly reduced damage is pretty much a wash with the slightly increased range.

Also, you need 2 faction hardeners to fit 8 Mega Beams on an Apoc, but you only need 1 on a 7 Tachyon II fit. After that, you have this problem:

http://i.imgur.com/TVWVTS1.png

Megathron 1 has more DPS than either Apoc, with vastly more EHP. Megathron 2 has the same EHP as the Apocs, but vastly more DPS. On top of that, half the cap use, and the DPS gulf is even bigger between the two ships if you're closer than 52km and the Mega can use antimatter. There's really no good reason to fly the Apoc as long as the probing and warping system makes it very hard to snipe at ranges >150km.

A full mega beam apoc will do more DPS than either of your tach apoc fits here, at 52 km even though its even firing in falloff at this point.

Frankly, all I see is that the two ships put out very similar damage at the 50km to 100km range while having similar EHP but I will concede the mega seems to have a few more significant factors in its favor. Apoc gets a higher max range on its weapons which it pretty much doesn't need if using beams while having a harder cap on its damage.
Korvus Falek
Depraved Corruption
Lux Inter Astra
#51 - 2014-07-09 19:43:02 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Oh gee, he extended his EHP slightly by leaving a thermal resist hole, AND exchanged a sensor booster for a tracking computer. We got a real expert over here. I'm blown away by your amazing hellcat fit.



It was still better than all other fittings. The thermic hole as well as the sensor booster lacking are both slightly fixed by the fleet boosts too; if using the info/armor links. Better tracking to hit those hac's or w/e with.

However, you dont really seem the expert in any fitting sense at all....
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-07-09 20:03:56 UTC
Korvus Falek wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Oh gee, he extended his EHP slightly by leaving a thermal resist hole, AND exchanged a sensor booster for a tracking computer. We got a real expert over here. I'm blown away by your amazing hellcat fit.



It was still better than all other fittings. The thermic hole as well as the sensor booster lacking are both slightly fixed by the fleet boosts too; if using the info/armor links. Better tracking to hit those hac's or w/e with.

However, you dont really seem the expert in any fitting sense at all....

Slightly fix a problem? You're cute.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#53 - 2014-07-09 20:25:47 UTC
Korvus Falek wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Oh gee, he extended his EHP slightly by leaving a thermal resist hole, AND exchanged a sensor booster for a tracking computer. We got a real expert over here. I'm blown away by your amazing hellcat fit.



It was still better than all other fittings. The thermic hole as well as the sensor booster lacking are both slightly fixed by the fleet boosts too; if using the info/armor links. Better tracking to hit those hac's or w/e with.

However, you dont really seem the expert in any fitting sense at all....


Yeah in fairness the fit I linked was also pretty old so I would probably tinker with the lows these days, not so many :drakes: around dealing pure Kin.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#54 - 2014-07-10 01:16:54 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
If you're going to spend that much ISK, just fly an Ishtar. Cost is the ONLY advantage battleships have over Ishtars, so if your fleet BS costs close to 200m ISK after insurance, you're absolutely doing it wrong.


everyone might as well just fly ishtars then. Hell I said that somewhat sarcastically then I looked at the abaddon in eft and damn it just isn't the ship I remember it being.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-07-10 04:28:29 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
This is the problem with the Abaddon:

http://i.imgur.com/U2ml1BC.png

10k EHP is not worth having less range, less DPS, 66% of the speed, a gigantic signature radius that gets destroyed by bombers, and double the cap drain. The cap drain on the Abaddon is so bad you can't even run the guns alone on a medium injector, and you can't fit a heavy injector without two grid mods.


Please stop making fits. Seriously.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2014-07-10 07:42:34 UTC
i love how he compares a combat bs to an attack bs.
if he was reasonable he should compare the apocalypse with the megathron and the abaddon with the hyperion.

On the other hand i think the abaddon become the short stick in the balance pass but only marginal. Hope Rise will give her a second look at the finetuning.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-07-10 11:02:50 UTC
Tempest and Abbadon could use a slight overhaul.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-07-10 11:27:42 UTC
The horrible Baddon fits and the whining is making me sad Straight

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#59 - 2014-07-10 12:03:52 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
If you're going to spend that much ISK, just fly an Ishtar. Cost is the ONLY advantage battleships have over Ishtars, so if your fleet BS costs close to 200m ISK after insurance, you're absolutely doing it wrong.


everyone might as well just fly ishtars then. Hell I said that somewhat sarcastically then I looked at the abaddon in eft and damn it just isn't the ship I remember it being.


Ishtars get fisted by Attack BC's. Naga Fleet > Ishtar Fleet
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2014-07-10 13:17:09 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
i love how he compares a combat bs to an attack bs.
if he was reasonable he should compare the apocalypse with the megathron and the abaddon with the hyperion.


He did that as well. You're welcome to weigh in on that comparison. However the abaddon and megathron fits were also similar enough in performance and role to warrant a comparison too.