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SO where is the black ops buff?

Author
Eriminite
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2011-12-22 17:05:24 UTC
Aaron Greil wrote:
......
Firstly, I don't like the idea of exclusive pvp/pve ships. All ships should be able to fill both roles, and for the most part they do. (Exceptions being the scorpion, blood raider ships, and combat recons.) Also, I'd like to note to all you folks who will scream "carebear!" that pve really only has a single exclusive pve ship class, marauders, where pvp has several. Secondly, I want to counter a specific notion that people seem to have. Huge alliance vs. alliance fleets are not where the majority of players are. Certainly a lot, and probably the more dedicated players, i.e. the forum posters, are. But most people exist in small, unaffiliated corps with just a few members, like me. I don't have stats on that, but still.... I suppose I should note that I have used my blackops for plexing with a small gang, using the mobility to bypass gatecamps and the guns for fire support, because my corp couldn't support the logistics of blackops pvp.

........

I realize tech 1 is supposed to be multipurpose, and tech 2 is supposed to be more specific, but lets look at HACs. Many people use them both for ratting/plexing and pvping, often with the same fit. My point being that a ship should appeal to a variety of people, even if it focuses on a specific role. Basically, what you or I might do with a black ops is not the same as someone else.

Small corps are not interested in getting black ops because of the logistics required. That's a shame. They're still subcapitals. Imho, their role should be: moving through zero sec unhindered. The application of that role is up to the player.

So here are my suggestions:

1. Increase jump range, and/or significantly reduce fuel usage. Like others have stated, the fuel cost is unmanageable if you want to do anything outside a major operation. I want to be able to move and take my fleet through multiple areas. This is their core ability, it should be the focus of the class, in other words: useful and able for a single pilot to manage.

1. Blackops Cloaking needs to be fixed. The biggest problem I have experienced in the past, is that when people see me in warp, they martial the troops. "Holy Crap, 1 bil ship on scan kill it kill it kill it!" This is a problem. It makes doing anything stealthy difficult. If you are pvping, it gives away your fleet. The solution is just as difficult to manage, though. I hear people saying that a covops cloak (which would solve this) would be OP. That may be true, but the covops cloak sits at the heart of stealth operations. My suggestion is to either: give them a covops cloak, and the standard targeting delay, or do something radical, like get rid of the cloak bonuses altogether and instead give blackops the unique ability not to show up on d-scan (but still with combat probes). It is IN WARP that the black ops must be stealthy, not on the battlefield.

2. More carefully define their combat role. I like the concept of the widow. Its like a big falcon. So I suggest ONE of the following: Give them racial Ewar. I.e. redeemer with TD/Neuts, panther with TP/webs, sin with sensor damps/scramber range, and add another ECM bonus to the widow. Second option, make them snipers. Give them Marauder style weapon setup, 100% damage, and half turrets, 3 to be exact. That way they can fit larger weapons to gain a little dps and a lot of range. Give them an optimal bonus and decent targeting range. Final option, make them super tanky, but with limited dps, sacrilege/damnation style with some other support bonus, maybe command links. (Careful thought would have to go into that one though.)

3. Get rid of the stupid massive drone bays. Heavy drones plus stealth equals fail. Give them 50 bandwidth and 75 capacity, or even just 25/25. Big slow drones are counter-productive for the role. In turn, buff their other weapons systems.

5. Do something radical. One idea is to be able to jump/bridge to a system without a cyno. I imagine when you want to jump, you are taken to the solar system map to choose a location. Cynos always seemed stupid to me, but I guess they make sense for capitals, because anyone can train cyno 1. Not for blackops. People will probably scream at me for this one, but I think with careful thought, it would work nicely. A jump delay would be necessary, like 5 min before you can jump again, or perhaps like a minute charge time. It helps with the stealth and mobility role. I was also not happy about having to start an alt, and train for cyno 5 just to use the blackops functionality. Seems to be a very poor design to demand another character sacrifice a month of training time just so you can use the most basic functionality of your ship.

8. Split the class into two, like force and combat recons. One that is faster and stealthier, but designed to work with fewer ships, or even solo. The pilgrim is excellent at mag/radar sights. I want the same functionality on a bigger ship.

Perhaps:
Ghost ops --> unparalleled stealth movement through null, but no jump portal gen. Good dps, but low hp. Good for some solo work, and ratting/running sights. Like big force recons

Black ops --> Slower, tankier, and meaner than Ghost ops, but not as stealthy. Does have jump portal gen, and possibly ewar.

I like everything here save for the tankier ideas. Cloakie ships dont tank well, their ability to move where they want makes up for it. Covops cloak and sniping bonuses would be real nice. Getting on killmails would be even better
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#102 - 2011-12-23 09:27:27 UTC
I'm not to black ops yet.....but close. As a Caldari pilot I want a Widow, but can see onther races being all meh over theres. Cloaked well warping on a BS hull just sounds OP.


Have little to no jump drive experience yet, so distance and fuel still a little hard for me to figure out in my head, but cov ops cyno/black ops jumping has built in restrictions so its not like a titan. I also feel that from what I have read on multiple forums that there jumping is sweet, but personally(as do many others) feel like it SHOULD jump really fare and take an ok amount of stuff with it.


How many tempest can a titan jump? shouldn't the black ops be able to jump there faster(less jumps) with at least enuff non-SB's to harass/flank to make it worth it? I do understand the cost difference, but a black ops with fit+skills and fuel is a lots Isk and time too.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Death Toll007
Perkone
Caldari State
#103 - 2011-12-23 09:51:44 UTC
Black Ops warp cloak is not overpowered, just increase the range to decloak as a relation to its size... if a frig/cruiser = 2.0km then make the BS 7.5km.

I like the idea of dropping drones for something else.

Tankier reads to me as the ability to make it a brick... not worried about that, but an EHP and resist buff would be good due to the cost of the ships.

As another alternative, drop the material requirements of the skill intensive ship and leave it as is. The reduced cost would increase its use. OTOH if the intent it to limit its use due to SP/ISK then tweak.

Also want to see the Tier 2 and 3 BC in a T2 cloaky role to augment these fleets.

-DT
Time Hunt
Perkone
Caldari State
#104 - 2012-01-10 19:08:17 UTC
What? Still no response from a DEV?

Oh come on!
Guillame Herschel
Buffalo Soldiers
#105 - 2012-01-11 00:03:40 UTC
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
The widow has the most useful of bonuses.


Yeah, there's nothing quite as useful as an ECM boat with 90mm scan res. Roll

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#106 - 2012-01-11 00:11:57 UTC
Guillame Herschel wrote:
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
The widow has the most useful of bonuses.


Yeah, there's nothing quite as useful as an ECM boat with 90mm scan res. Roll



BOBS tend to have really good scan res if you forego the cloak (for a BS I mean).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Murtific
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#107 - 2012-01-11 00:23:05 UTC
Andski wrote:
Jack Sparroxx wrote:
Then they need T2 resist and standard T1 slot layout. Dont like the fact that 700mill T2 ships folds like wet nappys if anything sheenze at them.


God no, triple plated and trimarked Redeemers with T2 resists would easily get close to 300k EHP.




And triple plate is where you die for having crap resists, extremely difficult to rep when your lowest resist is 50%....
Murtific
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#108 - 2012-01-11 00:24:08 UTC
Guillame Herschel wrote:
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
The widow has the most useful of bonuses.


Yeah, there's nothing quite as useful as an ECM boat with 90mm scan res. Roll




Definitely have to go with a faction cloak bud.. Shocked
Cyzlaki
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2012-01-11 03:22:48 UTC
They need a role change more than a straight buff. Right now their role in the game is redundant.
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2012-01-11 07:50:18 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
i could also quote you similarly but i am too lazy and you are not worht it. the funny thing is that you cant beat this:
if you look around at killboard with black ops, its is clear they are succesful at what they do.
Once you get jumped by black ops, you got 1 minute or less to survive even when you are in a battleship. Its that fast!
Jumping distance and fuel consumption is the only thing that stops from making this type of game op.



I dont mind others saying bops are fine. but you are a mega troll and a coward hiding behind an alt troll toon.
saying a ship is fine cause it can gank mission/sanctum runner w/e in null is idiotic.

apart from that i have never used one. but if people end up fitting cargo expanders on em its pretty bad.

came here to see what the current state of the ship class is and if its worth a try and tbh it does not seem that bad.
just takes alot of logistics and good scouting effort to do it right.
is that correct?
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#111 - 2012-01-11 07:59:22 UTC
What they really need is for the 3 not the widow to fall in line with it. They should all do Ewar, the fact that there obviously specialized ships for the purpose of fleet projection, and just the Caldari one force multiples is IMHO an over sight that needs to be addressed.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#112 - 2012-01-11 08:07:05 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
What they really need is for the 3 not the widow to fall in line with it. They should all do Ewar, the fact that there obviously specialized ships for the purpose of fleet projection, and just the Caldari one force multiples is IMHO an over sight that needs to be addressed.


so the other 3 need to fall in line with the caldari one?
and all should do ewar the amarr one will do TE the minmatar one will do TP and dumps for the gallente?
no thank you.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#113 - 2012-01-11 11:48:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
No, warp disruptor, newt, web duh. The other races have 2 Ewar types so probably the more relevant one, go look at there force recons.
Don't act like that wouldn't be awesome to have a second BS with newt bonus, or a BS that deckoaks and throws a point 40k, or webbs you to 2 digit number for speed.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#114 - 2012-01-11 12:32:01 UTC
My Widow is fitted with cargo expander rigs, all cargo expanders, 4 heavy cap injectors, MWD, Cloak, Cyno Portal. I think I also had like 2x ECM and some heavy neuts (have never used them tho on this ship).

If I just need to move my pod I use carrier instead. Cheaper. Adequate jump range.

I would not suggest using Black Ops int heir for actual combat any more than I would suggest electronic attack ships or some other less than popular gizmos. Last I looked at some dev report about black ops was when more people were flying motherships than black ops.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2012-01-11 12:33:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Valea Silpha
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
No, warp disruptor, newt, web duh. The other races have 2 Ewar types so probably the more relevant one, go look at there force recons.
Don't act like that wouldn't be awesome to have a second BS with newt bonus, or a BS that deckoaks and throws a point 40k, or webbs you to 2 digit number for speed.


That would not be awesome.

We already have those abilities attached to BS in game and they are not in any way useful enough to be a general use ship. Only the bhaalgorn sees much use, and that's against caps. Yeah, the vindi webs are pretty sweet but not the extent of people saying 'I only fly the vindi for the webs'. They are useful for sure, but thats more because its on a sturdy platform with hellish dps. Vindis work in BS gangs, but a black ops with that ability is going to be too flimsy and just poorly optimsed for general combat.

Long webs and long points are easilly possible on ANY ship (claymore/loki and faction point) and while they can be useful they are far from useful enough to justify a classes existance.

Particularly when those abilities are available for around the same price with WAY better survivability and speed in t3 hulls, of course with the option of a covert cloak. No-one is going to pick a lumbering, slow to lock black ops over a t3 to do their ewar. You are portaling recons for gods sake. Why would you jump the black ops on to the field to do more reconning ?

And none of this gets around the fact that the black ops ships are always doomed to just be mobile portals for a long long long time until something drastic about the class changes. A minor boost to their on field utility won't make them more used in combat.

As a long time black ops owner (although more for convenient loot transportation than combat) I personally think that the class just needs a total rework. They are never going to be combat monsters, and I'm ok with that. But they shouldn't just be forgotten relics that are best flown on an alt either.
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#116 - 2012-01-11 12:33:32 UTC
Double post - Bleh
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#117 - 2012-01-11 12:57:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
But what about them being just bigger recons? If they could be the recon then couldn't you use your jump portal for lots of SB instead? Don't get me wrong they need bumps all around for shure(10% to one resist thats the lowest of all T2 ships!!!) I have already stated earlyer that I am also for bigger fuel bay/lower fuel use AND further range. Make it a for real T2 with some acule resist and fittings.

So with all that? I think that looks good.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#118 - 2012-01-11 13:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Biced
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
But what about them being just bigger recons? If they could be the recon then couldn't you use your jump portal for lots of SB instead? Don't get me wrong they need bumps all around for shure(10% to one resist thats the lowest of all T2 ships!!!) I have already stated earlyer that I am also for bigger fuel bay/lower fuel use AND further range. Make it a for real T2 with some acule resist and fittings.

So with all that? I think that looks good.


with all what the noneses?

Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
No, warp disruptor, newt, web duh. The other races have 2 Ewar types so probably the more relevant one, go look at there force recons.
Don't act like that wouldn't be awesome to have a second BS with newt bonus, or a BS that deckoaks and throws a point 40k, or webbs you to 2 digit number for speed.


Its called a bhaalgorn and it is awesome. most people choose to use it w/o a cloak though.
and someone beat me to the faction bs part.

there is a theme in eve where t2 ships keep thier t1 variants bonus and get another bonus on top of that.
there are some exeptions though. widow "cough"
go check it out.
in fact what they should do is take the ecm bonus the widow gets and give it something useless like the agility for the sin.
trololol.

and no it will not be awesome at all because.
redeemer will be used to neut out caps. we already have a ship that does that read above.
the rest meh.
you know they portal recons right? like they have that ew in fleet already.
and they have low scan res. so by the time it will lock you up. you have all the time in the world to warp out.
there will be no point throwing.
fat recons no thank you.
your idea of a buff is make black ops tackle battle ships is terrible.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#119 - 2012-01-11 14:05:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
So what your saying is my widow SHOULD get a range and ecm and ecm burst bounus? ok!
Also lots of the pie ships now have one of there races ewar as a bounus, so what they weren't like that the hole time, they should change back.

Its should be clear to all that the Black Op is still in prenerf form like how lots of stuff usta be release in the olde times of EvE.
The other members of its tree have better resist and higher scan rez than there T1 counter parts.

Also only HAC's, AF's always keep there T1 bonuses, the rest get a change up, that or just my logi in my hanger is missing its sweet mining bonus.

Just because recons can already use it dose not mean more or different types of Ewar in the fleet would be bad, never had my Falcon turned down form a fleet because there was a Lachesis or an other Falcon for that matter.

You are the troll here.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Walker Ahashion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#120 - 2012-01-11 16:13:51 UTC
Does a black ops fleet that jumps in, jump back out again after the fight? Or do they have to travel through the gates to get back to where they came from?