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Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1481 - 2014-08-25 18:08:12 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
We own half of null, this has everything to do with us because the goal is to stop us from being able to own half of null. Any changes made needs to literally be goon proof.


Who says it has to be goon proof? You, not me.

Unlike you I'm not going to stand here and suggest something as rediculous as RR changes will make it so smaller groups can WIN. Eve doesn't and never will work like that. Goons will control precicely what they will based on their abilities, organization and playerbase. As they should.

You don't have anything to do with a balance discussion because there is no such thing as making the game "proof" of a group.

^^ This speaks entirely as to why you are incapable of seeing how to improve null. You can't think outside the box you live in. And my guess is, this is the failing in your suggestion for shaking up null. (RR nerf is removing any ability to stalemate against a larger force.)

You have no interest in fixing null mechanics, you just want it so one side can win.
I'm starting to think you can't even conceptualize the game in terms other than one side vs another.

baltec1 wrote:
Nobody is saying that towers need to lose their reinforcement timers, they were given them for a very good reason.


And what good reason was that? And who ever said it was good? Time might be ruling against that one.

What if structures had nothing to do with attacking, defending and controlling space?
Hell, open the stations and just make them large tax-free zones with infinite science and industry slots.
Move moon mins to belts. Get rid of bubbles, who cares, ANYTHING to shake it up.

Try thinking beyond "hurr tower bash" "hurr poco bash"

baltec1 wrote:
It wont because towers aren't going to be losing the timers. Power projection nerfs achieve nothing other than making life in EVE yet more tedious.


Tedious for who? There is literally nothing more tedious than the current state of null.

My idea is to promote regionalization of space. (it existed before and can again)

Now, I'm sure your alliance would be capable of spreading it's butter evenly across the bread to defend it all. Good for them, not part of the discussion.

But it should be pain in the ass to move thousands from one side of your empire to the other in a blink if you want to commit your forces. No large group can ever be vulnerable ever if there is no distance or actual travel to be a barrier between one side of space and the other.

"You want to make eve less fun" lol. Listen to yourself.
Do you know how many times I've heard this unsubtatiated opinion? Even more fun, take a guess at who I hear it from.

We've spent years with CCP developing null by the suggestions of those that wish to control it, not fix it.

The only people enjoying the space now is people staring at maps and counting their isk, it's as dead as a gameplay can get. I could really give a rats ass about the absolute miniscule minority that's etched out the stalemate that is null today thinking the game might not be as fun if they can't hop around all of null on a whim with dozens of supercaps and thousands of ships. And I think the massive majority of the server population would probably agree.

Once we have a regionalization and distance actually means something, there are countless ways to improve that space to make it sustainable for large groups.

I'm interested in watching this game, watching null, thrive. The capacity for population in null could be far beyond what it is today, but it will never be with our current mechanics. "activity based sov" for what? No one will be permitted to stay that doesn't pay rent to a bloc anyways, bam, dead in the water. You'll be fishing for bot corps and suckers like you do now.

You have to think beyond the status quo if you expect to improve beyond it. And you just don't seem to be capable of that.
Even worse, you may not even want to.
You wouldn't be the first person to choose to rule in hell vs serving in heaven.
or... To rule over a stagnant boring eve is probably appealing vs learning to compete again in a very different and vibrant one.


1. If towers had no timers we would burn everything in null and lowsec in a matter of weeks. Both us and PL/N3 have the firepower to torch every tower in an entire region in two days. Its happened before.

2. In 2008 venal residents not only held off the old NC but wiped out their entire supercap fleet while outnumbered. Small fleets used to win vs bigger ones all the time back then because logi were nowhere near as effective as now. Today those same fleets cant even score any kills. RR is responcible for this, if its not fixed then small alliances wont be viable in null unless they join a largepowerblock.

3. Yes, any system will have to be goon proof otherwise we will abuse it. CCP have been forced to make several changes to the game due to our actions from the FW isk fountain to barge buffs to nerfs to sentry drone use.

4. Nothing would make us happier than having all of our space taken off us, I look forwards to that day. A stagnant null is not in our interests hence why we are pushing for the plan we have.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1482 - 2014-08-25 19:07:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ninteen Seventy-Nine
baltec1 wrote:
1. If towers had no timers we would burn everything in null and lowsec in a matter of weeks. Both us and PL/N3 have the firepower to torch every tower in an entire region in two days. Its happened before.


Yes I know *Yawn*
Yay, let's talk in circles.
And just how could it be possible for such an event to take place? POWER PROJECTION

Why not field the more interesting question, what if structure bashes didn't have anything to do with it?

baltec1 wrote:
2. In 2008 venal residents not only held off the old NC but wiped out their entire supercap fleet while outnumbered. Small fleets used to win vs bigger ones all the time back then because logi were nowhere near as effective as now. Today those same fleets cant even score any kills. RR is responcible for this, if its not fixed then small alliances wont be viable in null unless they join a largepowerblock.


Yes, one time this smaller group one so obviously this proves everything you said. Lol

You still, again, after how many posts, haven't proven anything regarding your theory. You have not provided ANY evidence to support your claim that nerfing RR is magically going to make small fleets defeat big ones. It will make something undefendable no matter the resources you commit to it, sure. But even that that's in the face of overwhelming offense, not something I think of when I think of "the little guy"

Correllation doesn't equal causation, and correlation built on such a vague, circumstatial and isolated incident doesn't win your argument any points.

You just keep repeating yourself without responding to a litany of holes poked in your master plan. the one easy change that will magically fix null *somehow*... and I'm sure as self centered and ego-laden as you are this change wouldn't possibly be self serving Blink (see point 4 guys, there's no way)

baltec1 wrote:
3. Yes, any system will have to be goon proof otherwise we will abuse it. CCP have been forced to make several changes to the game due to our actions from the FW isk fountain to barge buffs to nerfs to sentry drone use. .


wtf are you even talking about now?

Because you figured how to manipulate a poor fw value equation mechanic and found a powerful ship fit in EFT we have to design the game around you?

Yeah, you guys totally invented exploiting and we rely on you entirely to point out any module imbalance.
You really are detached. Enjoy that koolaid mate

baltec1 wrote:
4. Nothing would make us happier than having all of our space taken off us, I look forwards to that day. A stagnant null is not in our interests hence why we are pushing for the plan we have.


oh ffs. you obviously have just entered trolling phase
your boss knows where the disband button is.

I'm sure, your just the honorable guards standing vigilant until ccp fixes things around you
(but not power projection DONT DO IT< IT WONT FIX ANYTHING)

I do apprecaite your discussion though. I don't think anyone could have seen quite so plainly why no one should listen to you without you insisting on yourself and your alliance vs the real null dynamics that we need to face

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1483 - 2014-08-25 20:04:07 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
See all your posts just come across as a bitter armchair general highsec alt who has no idea what they are talking about.

How many times have I had to point out to you that smaller fleets cant even hurt a larger one? You think this is fine? That smaller powers or fleet without the critical mass of logi only have the option of standing down.

I have lost count of the amount of times I have told you what would happen if you just nerf power projection. Fine, ignore the facts, lets take this down another path. If you nerf power projection how are alliances going to survive out on the edges of null?
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#1484 - 2014-08-25 21:12:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


I have lost count of the amount of times I have told you what would happen if you just nerf power projection. Fine, ignore the facts, lets take this down another path. If you nerf power projection how are alliances going to survive out on the edges of null?


Local production would be a start. Not like its hard to move stuff with blockade runners either. Done it 1000 times to using regular gates, and wormhole chains that happened to be open that day. Often though territory that I wasn't allied with, and before the balance pass to BRs.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1485 - 2014-08-25 21:23:07 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


I have lost count of the amount of times I have told you what would happen if you just nerf power projection. Fine, ignore the facts, lets take this down another path. If you nerf power projection how are alliances going to survive out on the edges of null?


Local production would be a start. Not like its hard to move stuff with blockade runners either. Done it 1000 times to using regular gates, and wormhole chains that happened to be open that day. Often though territory that I wasn't allied with, and before the balance pass to BRs.


Even with the new industry changes you cannot live totally independent from high sec (which is how it should be). You cannot keep an alliance supplied just with blockade runners, you need freighters.
jiujitsutou
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1486 - 2014-08-25 22:50:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


1. If towers had no timers we would burn everything in null and lowsec in a matter of weeks. Both us and PL/N3 have the firepower to torch every tower in an entire region in two days. Its happened before.

2. In 2008 venal residents not only held off the old NC but wiped out their entire supercap fleet while outnumbered. Small fleets used to win vs bigger ones all the time back then because logi were nowhere near as effective as now. Today those same fleets cant even score any kills. RR is responcible for this, if its not fixed then small alliances wont be viable in null unless they join a largepowerblock.

3. Yes, any system will have to be goon proof otherwise we will abuse it. CCP have been forced to make several changes to the game due to our actions from the FW isk fountain to barge buffs to nerfs to sentry drone use.

4. Nothing would make us happier than having all of our space taken off us, I look forwards to that day. A stagnant null is not in our interests hence why we are pushing for the plan we have.


2. This sounds like pure claims since neither rrs nor the ships that usualy fit them have been changed in any meaningfull way if we ignore t1 logis and frigs wich went from garbage to okish. Could you elaborate how rrs have become more effective and in what way you would want to change , so that a big gangs donot profit as much from them as small gangs , how will you address RR BS / RR T3 and RR Carrier (with atleast the last having a major role in evening the odds for certain alliances while beeing outnumbered).
Jaerlei Zil'Mordrar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1487 - 2014-08-25 23:12:30 UTC
In my mind, the problem has less to do with power projection and more to do with the fact that there is no alternative to power projection. Sure, there's probably some imbalances somewhere in large scale fleet mechanics, but I don't think those problems are at the heart of why we have a stagnant Null Sec.

The stagnation comes from the fact that the only way to claim space is through strategic timer control and fleet posturing. Get a big friggin fleet together when your timer drops and the only way for someone to take your space is to come at you with a bigger fleet. Sure, that makes for a fun(ish) brawl when everyone signs up for it, but scheduled fleet fights make for fun MMA, not fun ships in space. (No offense to the Alliance Tournament.)

If you eliminate the timer posturing completely, and any other "sov mechanics", and simply allow space to be held by those who are there using it, and defending it, then the playerbase will sort everything else out.

The small fleets STILL won't be able to take out the massive fleets, nor should they. But they can annoy the hell out of them until they leave. Or they can spread out and strategically target weak spots INSIDE territory. Large fleets will still be around to defend important assets (like that station that has all of the alliance ammunition and replacement ships and modules and such? Or those important shipping lanes?) and move around space with their lumbering awesomeness.

I think the playerbase can figure out ways to sew death and destruction across Null Sec without fancy territory flags. Sure, we can still argue over the mertis of supercaps and subcaps and whatnot. But at least the world would be on fire again, no?

We'd just have to come up with a new way to calculate the influence map, I suppose.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#1488 - 2014-08-25 23:55:44 UTC
Heh. The solution to sov stagnation is get rid of the sov thats causing the stagnation. Lol thatd be great. Be like back in the early days where "sov" was people inhabiting an area, not a magical stamp marked on a system.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1489 - 2014-08-25 23:55:46 UTC
jiujitsutou wrote:


2. This sounds like pure claims since neither rrs nor the ships that usualy fit them have been changed in any meaningfull way if we ignore t1 logis and frigs wich went from garbage to okish. Could you elaborate how rrs have become more effective and in what way you would want to change , so that a big gangs donot profit as much from them as small gangs , how will you address RR BS / RR T3 and RR Carrier (with atleast the last having a major role in evening the odds for certain alliances while beeing outnumbered).


Numbers.

Back then you couldn't deploy 25-35 logi in a fleet because you didn't have the manpower to spare to do it or the people with the skills. Same as how the massive capital balls are only now a thing. You also didn't have rigs back then and then when we did it was overly expensive as there was only the large rigs for everything. When we got the med rigs things changed as the logi boats could now become cap stable cheaply and were not reliant upon cap chains.

The fix is relatively simple, you put a stacking penalty in place so that after 4-5 logi ships you see less and less repping just like how damage mods work. This way you nerf the problem but don't impact small scale use of the ships and it would apply to everything from frigates to RR battleships to supercaps. People who say that this would result in smaller fleets being killed even faster than now are talking rubbish. It would be no easier to kill them than now, we simply alpha then off grid. The difference this change would make is that they can kill us in return which means it is now possible to use tactics to win a fight rather than just numbers and raw power. It would return us to how it was back in 2010.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#1490 - 2014-08-26 00:08:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Linkxsc162534
Quoting sucks on my phone.


So baltec. If theres a 5ship limit stacking penalty, or is it a 5 rep penalty ( so only 2 carriers can rep you at once before taking penalties). Also how does it mesh with say getting reps from a triaged carrier, relative to a non triage carrier? Or reps from a logifrig, 20 shield repair bots, and a logistic cruiser? Is there just a set limit, cant rep more than x per second? Or like current EWAR equipments that have a stacking penalty, so depending on the... quality of the reps, the highest quality one goes through, while lower quality ones are penalized

Also, how does it affect cap chaining?

Also how does this affect carriers, that though theyre supposed to be logi ships, can put out BS level dps, while repping and imbalanced amount compared to the nonsiege damage dealing ability of a dread?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1491 - 2014-08-26 00:21:24 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Quoting sucks on my phone.


So baltec. If theres a 5ship limit stacking penalty, or is it a 5 rep penalty ( so only 2 carriers can rep you at once before taking penalties). Also how does it mesh with say getting reps from a triaged carrier, relative to a non triage carrier? Or reps from a logifrig, 20 shield repair bots, and a logistic cruiser? Is there just a set limit, cant rep more than x per second? Or like current EWAR equipments that have a stacking penalty, so depending on the... quality of the reps, the highest quality one goes through, while lower quality ones are penalized

Also, how does it affect cap chaining?

Also how does this affect carriers, that though theyre supposed to be logi ships, can put out BS level dps, while repping and imbalanced amount compared to the nonsiege damage dealing ability of a dread?


5 ships. Reps from a carrier would take priority over something lesser like a drone or a guardian so you wouldn't lose out that way. Cap chaining would be unaffected. I hold no illusion that it would be a pain for CCP programmers but its the most fair way of doing it so far.

Carriers and supers are a big reason why RR nerfs need to happen as they are effectively invincible to subcaps once you hit a critical mass.
Tredionis
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1492 - 2014-08-26 00:27:15 UTC
Hi i want to pick some of your minds about mine idea.

system ownership vs system upgrades

Now this two peaces are bound together, when you grind system in week for timers you got system
and can upgrading him to desired lvl, it takes you month or less and it is protected by week of timers and lots of hp.
My idea is to seperate those two things in each system place Ihub upgrade with 5 stages(we have 5 lvl of upgrades)
amount of hp will be medium, large pos scaling with lvl or same it isnt that important atm.

Mechanic
1.Single Ihub with 5 timers we have 5 lvl of upgrades.
is something like destroying pos you shoot it bring it to stage 1 timer come back in 24h and shoot it
bring it to stage 2 next timer but if lvl was 5 you just bring all strategic military and industry to lvl 4 destroying
10bilions and 2 weeks of upgrading and bring lots of tears in raters renters and so on.


Scorched earth
Dyrector lvl people have ability to destroy 1 lvl of upgrades per week to deny enemy to get infrastructure some espinoge
content. I think it
can provide pardox when invading force defend systems to safe upgrades. Lvl of upgrades will be conected to moon mining
lvl 5 = 100% lvl 1 = 50% to bring more importance to take care of systems.


Oportunity
-It bring risk to renting there is no week of timers and lots of hp and week of protection thay pay for upgrades not system
-Null sec piracy for real that can pillage systems haras alliances not only thair members
-Semi hit in power projection if alliances need to protect thair infrastruture thay can send less people for CTA and deployment.
-Make living in null more engeging

Power projection
You cant break red vs blue in null sec Eve is game of isk and gain, people dont do something for fun or risk it is not logical.
Only way for this is make people more engeded with defending of their home it should bring risk to send your resources in other
place of galaxy. If eve have 10k online teleporting still providing big fights.

2.Each ship that use Tytan portal should use fuel like jump capable ships. Cross galaxy carrier jump cost 60mln so if you
jump 1000 men people fleet across galaxy it cost you already 60bilons. Small alliances dont spend that much beocuse thay
dont have that many people.

3.More npc Null in east will bring some ballance overal more npc null for providing more campaign content for piracy mercenarys.

4.Make min warp range to 100km for ability to jump on logistic in battle.


What do you think ?
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#1493 - 2014-08-26 00:33:01 UTC
So.. since cap transfers would probably be affected by this change...
Would neuts and nosses be stacking penalized as well?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1494 - 2014-08-26 00:34:17 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
So.. since cap transfers would probably be affected by this change...
Would neuts and nosses be stacking penalized as well?


None of those would be impacted. Cap transfers would not be touched, just the reps.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#1495 - 2014-08-26 01:15:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
So.. since cap transfers would probably be affected by this change...
Would neuts and nosses be stacking penalized as well?


None of those would be impacted. Cap transfers would not be touched, just the reps.


Iight.

So heres a thought. Most carriers generally run 2-3 reppers, an energy transfer, triage mod, and often a bomb of some sort or a cloak.
How bout (at least for caps) each carrier can only carry 1 repper (of each type, since everyone runs armorfleets, they can if they wish do 1 armor 1 shield and 1 hull, or they can trade the unbonused shield and hull reppers for 2 extra highslot mods),

Carriers and logiships get rebalanced around their single repper by buffing their bonuses. Spidertank bses might take a hit, but perhaps down the line other balance changes could even it out.

Or the repper itself could be buffed, and then nonbonused logi operations (spidertanked bses and bcs come to mind) would benefit. (Although when doing some fact checking just now on eft... arent local reps and remote a little out of sync with eachother? And wht is with the micro remote shield booster...)


This way ccp could have a much easier time balancing it perhaps. Because then itd literally be 5 carriers worth of repping?

Also in the case of subcap logis, they might start carrying smartbombs of their own, or perhaps packing those weapon hardpoints and contributing to the antifrig element or something.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1496 - 2014-08-26 01:23:47 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
So.. since cap transfers would probably be affected by this change...
Would neuts and nosses be stacking penalized as well?


None of those would be impacted. Cap transfers would not be touched, just the reps.


Iight.

So heres a thought. Most carriers generally run 2-3 reppers, an energy transfer, triage mod, and often a bomb of some sort or a cloak.
How bout (at least for caps) each carrier can only carry 1 repper (of each type, since everyone runs armorfleets, they can if they wish do 1 armor 1 shield and 1 hull, or they can trade the unbonused shield and hull reppers for 2 extra highslot mods),

Carriers and logiships get rebalanced around their single repper by buffing their bonuses. Spidertank bses might take a hit, but perhaps down the line other balance changes could even it out.

Or the repper itself could be buffed, and then nonbonused logi operations (spidertanked bses and bcs come to mind) would benefit. (Although when doing some fact checking just now on eft... arent local reps and remote a little out of sync with eachother? And wht is with the micro remote shield booster...)


This way ccp could have a much easier time balancing it perhaps. Because then itd literally be 5 carriers worth of repping?

Also in the case of subcap logis, they might start carrying smartbombs of their own, or perhaps packing those weapon hardpoints and contributing to the antifrig element or something.


There was another idea for just stopping RR from working in combat and having logi given another role such as anti support or given remote sensor booster bonuses and the like. A bit of an extreme solution and would result in logi stopping off grid somewhere and damaged ships warping to them for reps before warping back into the fight.

Another solution would be to have a cap on how much RR you can receive over a given time frame (aka RR per second) with capitals having a higher cap than subcaps.
whaynethepain
#1497 - 2014-08-26 03:39:09 UTC
Are you saying eve is too small?

More systems, or more universes? places away from solar systems?

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.
jiujitsutou
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1498 - 2014-08-26 05:35:23 UTC
@ Wayne: Adding more systems in the current system is nonsense they would be taken just as fast , the Point was and is Powerprojection must be hit hard with the nerfhammer.

@ baltec1: So Basicly you want to soft cap rrs while damage still works n+1 ? That does sound stupid to me ignoring the absoulute numbers you suggest. You said it yourself the Problems is your numbers aka the blobb , rigs do play a Part however the umber of available reps didnt actualy change in 2008/9 RR BS were a huge thing it basicly meant that you had 150 reps spread over 150 ships but resulted in the same amount of reps you get nowadays from 25ish logis .Lets just assume you would be rght and the amount of reps did go up significantly , so did the damage on most ships .
A Cap to rrs will help the larger groups more than the small ones as theyll just go the way of the Shotgun as they can afford taking more losses anyways.
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#1499 - 2014-08-26 05:48:35 UTC
I havent had time to read 70+ Pages so this may have been proposed and viciously beaten to death already but here it is back from the dead:

Rather than remove jump drives or increase fuel costs that only harm smaller alliances in the long run add a cool down to all non Black ops jump drives ( that sort of plays into the needed BLOPS Re-balance ) make it 5 minutes for all Caps, cannot be reset by docking. This means you now cannot move your carrier fleet more than a max distance jump in 2 minutes or across Eve with your supers in 10-15 minutes. Instead now you have to jump and either dock and wait the cooldown or jump regroup and wait for the cooldown together in space.

As a Carrier pilot Sure it sucks that now i have to wait an additional 10 minutes to make a 3 jump trip to jita area to pack in some new fitted ships and jump home again. but on the flipside it gives the opponents more time to get the job done and evac. Also means you cant project from region to region as easily, which goes a long way towards the start of healing Null Sec.

And finally its a Terms and Conditions, you accept that when you hit "Jump to Asakai" or whatever that sh*t could hit the fan pretty hard and your stuck there for 5 minutes no matter what no, lol sorry bye i jammed you and jumped back out. Also means supers cant jump in, cap up, and jump out of low sec before ever dropping invulnerability. Another logistic issue that would make projection more difficult and give pirates bigger fish to prey on in turn.

So again theres the idea that MIGHT be back from the dead.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
cpt Niki
Perkone
Caldari State
#1500 - 2014-08-26 06:38:55 UTC
OH yes bring RR nerf!

3-4 modules active to a station rep fleet! YES! I have one week to rep this ****!

Nerf the RR let the scrubs stay up 2 days to rep their tower from RF!

let the small guy stay up and rep sov structure for ages!

If you are going to nerf RR don't do it only for ships! do it for the fun of this game!