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Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1181 - 2014-08-10 21:35:02 UTC
Lu Ziffer wrote:
Yes the old blocks will claim some of the systems.
But if there are enough systems so they can not claim them all in 2years, then there is space for a new coalition to rise.
There are a lot of bored players in these coalitions who would leave them if there was a new challange.
These players who go away will be the reason for some alliances to disband.


You forget that you then have to go through the old blocks' space to reach that new space - which is about as possible as making a worm walk on 2 legs. If you have to go through CFC or N3 space to reach your home beyond their space, you need to be blue to them and nothing is going to change.

Besides, CFC and N3 are very well capable of claiming as much new space as they want, simply because of the above reason. Whoever snacks space first can just be starved to death in the outer reaches.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Asyrdin Harate
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1182 - 2014-08-10 21:44:18 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lu Ziffer wrote:
Yes the old blocks will claim some of the systems.
But if there are enough systems so they can not claim them all in 2years, then there is space for a new coalition to rise.
There are a lot of bored players in these coalitions who would leave them if there was a new challange.
These players who go away will be the reason for some alliances to disband.


You forget that you then have to go through the old blocks' space to reach that new space - which is about as possible as making a worm walk on 2 legs. If you have to go through CFC or N3 space to reach your home beyond their space, you need to be blue to them and nothing is going to change.

Besides, CFC and N3 are very well capable of claiming as much new space as they want, simply because of the above reason. Whoever snacks space first can just be starved to death in the outer reaches.


the whole adding space thing won't work either way, if you increased it by a little nothing would change, if you expanded 10 fold...you might end up having to move 250 jumps to find your nearest roaming target which is probably just about as much fun as grinding out the sov in the drone regions :)
Lu Ziffer
Balanced Unity
Goonswarm Federation
#1183 - 2014-08-10 21:47:10 UTC
You mean there would be the challange to build an economy not relying on 24/7 jita access.
Creating a trading alliances who maintain positive standings with people who are not blue to each otther.

If you want pvp you will not jump 20000 ly away from your enemy but you will jump 50ly just to get some space of your own.
Shalmon Aliatus
Bluestar Enterprises
The Craftsmen
#1184 - 2014-08-10 21:59:15 UTC
I like the idea of an economy without jita. But the question is, why should the old blocks stop claiming space, when they get a benefit from it ? The only space not claimed by the blocks are wormholes, because a) they can't push everyone out with their supers (one of the reasons why there will never be new groups holding sov at the current state of the game) b) there is not enough reward for taking them.
Lu Ziffer
Balanced Unity
Goonswarm Federation
#1185 - 2014-08-10 22:08:57 UTC
Shalmon Aliatus wrote:
I like the idea of an economy without jita. But the question is, why should the old blocks stop claiming space, when they get a benefit from it ?

They would not stop, they can not stop because they have a growing community.
But if there is always enough space to avoid them, then there is a choice when a region reaches the critical threshold for a war between war or starting new somewhere else.
Maybe even big coalitions would pay smaller groups to scout this unknown regions or build infrastructure for them before they move in.
Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1186 - 2014-08-10 22:32:23 UTC
Athryn Bellee wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Lu Ziffer wrote:
And how would that end the stagnation?


We lose sov in every system outside of dek because it would be impossible for us to hold it freeing up several thousand systems for smaller alliances.


I think occupancy or user based sov is a step in the right direction, but how does that stop any large group from imposing protection fees on another smaller group?

Let's say this change happens and alliances own the regions they actually operate in. Wouldn't a group like CFC or N3/PL just tell the little guys that they can keep their space so long as they pay protection fees and grant R64s to their overlords. They can't actually take the sov from them, but they can harass the smaller alliances enough that they aren't willing to live in nullsec anymore. Then we have smaller alliances holding sov, but in essence the system is still the same except it is harder to keep track of the various groups since the renters aren't under a large Alliance like PBLRD or B0T.

As long as there is functionally no cost for large groups to throw their capitals across the cluster the system will remain the same in function regardless of how it is delineated through in game alliances. We saw how easy it was for CFC to take out those titans that were incubating in their region.

We discuss this about halfway through the Podside show #228 from last night.

http://www.podbay.fm/show/542915403

.

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1187 - 2014-08-10 23:22:34 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
i would say remove pos and replace with modular pos idea where pos exist in dead space pockets and replace moon minning with a version of PI...

that way goons and pl cant just park thier poses at each r64 moon and protect them with the apex forces...

While moons are a source of income, they are not a source of fabulous wealth. A good R64 will net about 5 Bil. a month, for an alliance, the same can be generated by a single, good truesec, fully upgraded rating system at a tax rate of 15%. Also they will be good to fight over.


the thing is though with the current way money moons work being tied to a pos that can be protected or attacked by an almost infinite escalation force or in other terms the "apex force" will mean even if you have occupancy sov goons and n3/pl will still spilt the map 50/50...

remove pos from moons replace moon mining with PI on moons.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1188 - 2014-08-10 23:32:05 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Falin Whalen wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
i would say remove pos and replace with modular pos idea where pos exist in dead space pockets and replace moon minning with a version of PI...

that way goons and pl cant just park thier poses at each r64 moon and protect them with the apex forces...

While moons are a source of income, they are not a source of fabulous wealth. A good R64 will net about 5 Bil. a month, for an alliance, the same can be generated by a single, good truesec, fully upgraded rating system at a tax rate of 15%. Also they will be good to fight over.


the thing is though with the current way money moons work being tied to a pos that can be protected or attacked by an almost infinite escalation force or in other terms the "apex force" will mean even if you have occupancy sov goons and n3/pl will still spilt the map 50/50...

remove pos from moons replace moon mining with PI on moons.



not PI because it can't be touched then...
make it a moon mining array .. that acts like a POS .. so you have too take out the moon goo with hauler .. can be taxed . and ofc can be attacked put into reinforced mode and destroyed ... making it raidable would be great also ... so 60% can be stolen and the rest is discarded then its put into reinforced mode

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1189 - 2014-08-10 23:54:32 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Falin Whalen wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
i would say remove pos and replace with modular pos idea where pos exist in dead space pockets and replace moon minning with a version of PI...

that way goons and pl cant just park thier poses at each r64 moon and protect them with the apex forces...

While moons are a source of income, they are not a source of fabulous wealth. A good R64 will net about 5 Bil. a month, for an alliance, the same can be generated by a single, good truesec, fully upgraded rating system at a tax rate of 15%. Also they will be good to fight over.


the thing is though with the current way money moons work being tied to a pos that can be protected or attacked by an almost infinite escalation force or in other terms the "apex force" will mean even if you have occupancy sov goons and n3/pl will still spilt the map 50/50...

remove pos from moons replace moon mining with PI on moons.



not PI because it can't be touched then...
make it a moon mining array .. that acts like a POS .. so you have too take out the moon goo with hauler .. can be taxed . and ofc can be attacked put into reinforced mode and destroyed ... making it raidable would be great also ... so 60% can be stolen and the rest is discarded then its put into reinforced mode


or move moon min to comets that have to be scanned and actively mined. that would achieve the raidable objective and the occupancy objective of actually having to live in the space to get its benefits.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1190 - 2014-08-11 00:00:37 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Falin Whalen wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
i would say remove pos and replace with modular pos idea where pos exist in dead space pockets and replace moon minning with a version of PI...

that way goons and pl cant just park thier poses at each r64 moon and protect them with the apex forces...

While moons are a source of income, they are not a source of fabulous wealth. A good R64 will net about 5 Bil. a month, for an alliance, the same can be generated by a single, good truesec, fully upgraded rating system at a tax rate of 15%. Also they will be good to fight over.


the thing is though with the current way money moons work being tied to a pos that can be protected or attacked by an almost infinite escalation force or in other terms the "apex force" will mean even if you have occupancy sov goons and n3/pl will still spilt the map 50/50...

remove pos from moons replace moon mining with PI on moons.



not PI because it can't be touched then...
make it a moon mining array .. that acts like a POS .. so you have too take out the moon goo with hauler .. can be taxed . and ofc can be attacked put into reinforced mode and destroyed ... making it raidable would be great also ... so 60% can be stolen and the rest is discarded then its put into reinforced mode


or move moon min to comets that have to be scanned and actively mined. that would achieve the raidable objective and the occupancy objective of actually having to live in the space to get its benefits.


or both .. add a new mining T2 ship that can harvest moon goo in those comets

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1191 - 2014-08-11 00:12:11 UTC
Athryn Bellee wrote:


Super blobs are not content if the subcaps can't do anything about them. Then it is just bullying, plain and simple.


Capital blobs will also be dealt with as part of the null revamp along with RR as a whole to make smaller fleets viable.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1192 - 2014-08-11 00:15:38 UTC
Athryn Bellee wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Lu Ziffer wrote:
And how would that end the stagnation?


We lose sov in every system outside of dek because it would be impossible for us to hold it freeing up several thousand systems for smaller alliances.


I think occupancy or user based sov is a step in the right direction, but how does that stop any large group from imposing protection fees on another smaller group?

Let's say this change happens and alliances own the regions they actually operate in. Wouldn't a group like CFC or N3/PL just tell the little guys that they can keep their space so long as they pay protection fees and grant R64s to their overlords. They can't actually take the sov from them, but they can harass the smaller alliances enough that they aren't willing to live in nullsec anymore. Then we have smaller alliances holding sov, but in essence the system is still the same except it is harder to keep track of the various groups since the renters aren't under a large Alliance like PBLRD or B0T.

As long as there is functionally no cost for large groups to throw their capitals across the cluster the system will remain the same in function regardless of how it is delineated through in game alliances. We saw how easy it was for CFC to take out those titans that were incubating in their region.


With the combination of changes we want to see simply dumping a super blob in a system for a few hours will do little to sov ownership. Future sov wars would look very different than today.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1193 - 2014-08-11 08:19:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lu Ziffer wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
and you STILL have not fixed the problems with null.

The problem with null is not a game mechanic problem it is a meta gaming problem.
Yes there are some null mechanics that are not cool or fun but no game mechanic can solve the problem that the bigger amount of players with the better means of working together will be the one who owns the space.

And systems that are not loaded because nobody is there is not a server performance problem.



Most of null is already empty and it is very much game mechanic issues at the heart of nulls problems.

Empire sprawl is the result of each system only being able to support at most 10 ratters at a time.


This is an issue. All nullsec systems are full of useless site that nobody runs.

Aside from Havens, Sanctums, Forsaken Hubs. The other anoms are not worth ever running. Combat sites - is there anyone who actually runs bases or escalations? Why are there mining anomolies when there are asteroid belts in every system?

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Lu Ziffer
Balanced Unity
Goonswarm Federation
#1194 - 2014-08-11 08:39:45 UTC
@ Snot Shot
good podcast.

What I hear is "we need to change the mechanics and we have complicated ideas todo that"
I love the idea of splitting up forces and getting new people in.
But the removal of timers and EHP will create a need for timezones coverage like we had never before.
From my experiance in the fall of the Northern Coalition this is a bad thing.
When the battles in geminate were fought we basicly alarmclocked for more then 2 weeks.
Yes there were great fights for month but it burned out the players.

Again this favors the coalitions they have the tools and the people to cover timezones and lock down entire regions.


@Speedkermit Damo
There are other sites worth flying and there are people who buy escalations from other players in null.
There are mining anomalies because there is not enough ore in the belts but the real problem is that the income from ore mining is 3 times less then from semi afk ratting.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1195 - 2014-08-11 08:54:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
Falin Whalen wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
i would say remove pos and replace with modular pos idea where pos exist in dead space pockets and replace moon minning with a version of PI...

that way goons and pl cant just park thier poses at each r64 moon and protect them with the apex forces...

While moons are a source of income, they are not a source of fabulous wealth. A good R64 will net about 5 Bil. a month, for an alliance, the same can be generated by a single, good truesec, fully upgraded rating system at a tax rate of 15%. Also they will be good to fight over.


5billion per month is probably fabulous wealth to most players. At least it is to me. Got any spare moons?Lol

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1196 - 2014-08-11 08:57:55 UTC
Lu Ziffer wrote:
@ Snot Shot
good podcast.

What I hear is "we need to change the mechanics and we have complicated ideas todo that"
I love the idea of splitting up forces and getting new people in.
But the removal of timers and EHP will create a need for timezones coverage like we had never before.
From my experiance in the fall of the Northern Coalition this is a bad thing.
When the battles in geminate were fought we basicly alarmclocked for more then 2 weeks.
Yes there were great fights for month but it burned out the players.

Again this favors the coalitions they have the tools and the people to cover timezones and lock down entire regions.


@Speedkermit Damo
There are other sites worth flying and there are people who buy escalations from other players in null.
There are mining anomalies because there is not enough ore in the belts but the real problem is that the income from ore mining is 3 times less then from semi afk ratting.


Not enough ore in the belts? There's a ton of ore in the belts, nobody EVER mines in belts in null. Agree that mining income is generally bad though.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#1197 - 2014-08-11 09:51:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Residency based sov.

Let's say after tomorrow downtime we'll log in to see this sov model. What would it change?
Nothing.
Renters that live in nullsec will keep farming as they do now. Neutrals in local? POS up! Structures under attack? Batphone! Paying rent? Sure they will, because steamrolling will always be a thing, unless you turn supers into useless coffins.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#1198 - 2014-08-11 09:58:27 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
...because steamrolling will always be a thing, unless you turn supers into useless coffins.

Unless there is a usable counter to supers which isn't more supers.

It all seems pretty simple to me. Make carriers only able to field fighters and make fighters unable to hit cruisers or smaller.

Make a cruiser glass cannon which can fit anti cap guns which simply can't hit sub caps but which do disgusting damage to caps.

Then fleets of caps will be vulnerable to something other than a larger fleet of caps. If you want to protect your cap fleet you *must* have subcap protection.

This would make cap/supercap use be more of a risk and therefore far less of an "iWin" button.
Lu Ziffer
Balanced Unity
Goonswarm Federation
#1199 - 2014-08-11 09:58:42 UTC
So we all agree that the stagnation is a result of a situation where only 2 coalitions are left who switched into self preservation mode.
We agree that this is a result of years of escalating wars and the search for bigger good fights.
We basicly fight over the idea how to solve that issue.

Finding friends or allys to defend what you created is natural. We can not change that.
The result are bigger coalitions and capability to bring more ships. We can not change that.
We can try to keep them from uniting in a single system but it is natural to focus your forces in search for a decision in battle or for creating a battle that decides a war.

The use space to get sov and no timers, no ehp idea.
Timers were invented after we anchored 10 resistance stars with 400mil hp each in every important system.
Timers were introduced to give people the chance to defend their space without having 24/7 coverage. They were introduced to give smaller groups a chance to fight.
We removed ehp if we remove timers there is only 24/7 coverage left to keep sov and no small group can do this.

It is great idea to remove timers because they are a artifical hardcap but we introduced them to remove the ehp problem.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1200 - 2014-08-11 10:15:13 UTC
Lu Ziffer wrote:


It is great idea to remove timers because they are a artifical hardcap but we introduced them to remove the ehp problem.


We STILL have to burn through massive amounts of HP, that problem didn't go away. Hence why we dump the big capital blobs.