These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Strategic Cruisers are not true tech III ships, tech III ships should fundamentally different

Author
Infinion
Awesome Corp
#1 - 2011-11-19 12:22:16 UTC
The only difference that came with tech III ships was that their subsystems were fitted modularly and had several bonuses and characteristics (cloak, ewar, dps....what's new). While I think it's great that these ships can assume the roles of a bunch of different tech II ships, this isn't what I expect from a higher "tech level" of ships. Tech III ships shouldn't just be modular to fit and customize with bonuses, they should PERFORM modularly in combat.

What do i mean? I mean tech level III ships should no longer have the super simple shields/armor/hull EHP characteristic that tech I and II ships have. T3 EHP should be modular.

Now you really don't know what I mean? I mean if you want to take down a tech III ship the way you take down tech I and II ships (by locking them and just shooting them) you're going to be dealing with Shields/Armor that have 95% resistances across the board. However, if you target their subsystems, you're dealing with 50%-60% resistances and the chance to incapacitate different ship functionalities. Of course its harder to hit a ship subsystem than it is to hit the whole hull of the ship since you're dealing with a fraction of its signature radius.

So then all tech III ships are going to just speed tank? Well they certainly could, but there are lots of innovative ways a tech III ship could tank itself and its subsystems

1) hull reppers / nanite repair paste to repair or un-incapacitate subsystems
2) bulkheads to add a layer of hitpoints to subsystems and prevent their critical functions from being incapacitated
3) scuttle/eject specific subsystems from the hull to accomplish one of two things
i)gain a significant reduction in heat (from overloading)/mass/inertia
ii) use the abandoned subsystem as a distraction from your agressors such that they are temporarily fooled into thinking the abandoned subsystem is you.

A tech III ship will retain the ability to move ( 10 m/s) and warp relativistically (up to 0.1 AU/s , speed of light is just too slow) with either NO subsystems left at all, or without the engineering or propulsion subsystems.


This is what I would expect to see from a higher tech level ship that can truly be called strategic.

at least that's my 2 aurum
Alaik
Lucifer's Hammer
A Band Apart.
#2 - 2011-11-19 13:08:38 UTC
"Target engines and weapon systems, full power to phasers! FIRE!"

That kinda thing?
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-11-19 13:26:50 UTC
tl;dr.

T3s are awesome, nobody touches my T3s.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

FireT
Venom Pointe Industries
#4 - 2011-11-19 13:39:07 UTC
By that logic, and your demand idea, I demand that I get to shoot a ships cockpit or pod restraint within the ship. Thus me being able to shoot out you without leaving too much damage to the ship and harvest it.

Seriously, I am against this 'aim for specific ship parts idea' simply because you did not think it fully through. If you were to shoot specific parts you would also need a designated are of your ship that would be that part. And then you might expect people to avoid exposing that side in fights. Then what?
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-11-19 13:47:03 UTC
FireT wrote:
Seriously, I am against this 'aim for specific ship parts idea' simply because you did not think it fully through. If you were to shoot specific parts you would also need a designated are of your ship that would be that part. And then you might expect people to avoid exposing that side in fights. Then what?

Propulsion - Shoot the engines
Offensive - Shoot the guns
Defensive - Shoot the shield projector/armour resistance modifier
Electronic - Shoot the outer sensors
Engineering - Shoot the reactor's venting system

Problem solved.
There's a reason real life vehicles have areas of weakness, and this can reflect into EVE.
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2011-11-19 17:40:13 UTC
Just one problem ... you really thing EVE could support a full Star Trek damage modeling in its current engine and design ?
-No

Are CCP going rework the whole system ?
-No

That basicly kills off most of the good ideas. Wait for EVE 2.0 in about 10-15 years from now.
vorneus
Hub2
#7 - 2011-11-19 18:32:37 UTC
First off, this should be in the ideas forum.

But even if it were it would almost certainly be ignored, because it would require a large change to game mechanics for a very small gain. As someone else has pointed out, your plan opens up can of worms in terms of what happens in certain scenarios and the idea, for now at least, is just too complicated.

-Ed

This one time, I like, totally did some stuff.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#8 - 2011-11-19 21:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Let me pre-tempt this thread's move to the F&I section by saying this...

This is an oft requested idea... not only for T3 ships... but for all ships. There are just glaring issues that I see:

1. Fights don't last long enough: when you have 15-20+ people shooting at you at the same time and you have no (or fail) logi, you are going to die in a matter of seconds. No if's and's or but's.
Now you might counter by saying "increase the HP/resistances of ships so ships don't die so fast." Well, this was done some years ago for the EXACT same reason. All it did was make "active tanking" fairly useless in PvP (with exceptions), make "buffer tanking" king, and increase "blobbing" so people would still die in a matter of seconds.

2. It doesn't scale well: picture having a 50 on 50 fleet fight of T3s with your idea in place. The only way to kill each person is to wipe out all of their subsystems one by one. That's 5 subsystems per T3, of which there are 50 in fleet. That's 250 individual targets for each side to go through. Such a battle would last for hours. It would also put T1 and T2 fleets at an unreasonable disadvantage against T3 fleets (because T1 and T2 ships can be outright killed while the T3 can maintain the field even when most of his/her subsystems are gone).
Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE
#9 - 2011-11-19 23:27:53 UTC
Infinion wrote:
you're going to be dealing with Shields/Armor that have 95% resistances across the board.


Just out of curiosity, do you have down's syndrome?
Infinion
Awesome Corp
#10 - 2011-11-20 01:30:43 UTC
hmm, i posted this in general discussion but it was moved to ships & modules

I want to emphasize that CCP shouldn't release a new tech level of ships as lightly as they have for tech III, and especially as a one-time thing for a single expansion that they don't plan on revisiting for years. Each tech level of ship be it tech III, IV, V, VI..., should behave fundamentally differently from its previous tech level and should require aggressors to approach these ships with new tactics in order to effectively take them down.

Less about tech level now, for the past 8 years combat has depreciated due to having almost no progression in tactical diversity. CCP (and some of you) seem to think that we can keep playing with modules, ship bonuses, and EHP for the rest of our lives. But in reality, there will be space games that will find the niche in progressively immersive sci-fi combat that CCP started EVE originally to achieve. But CCP got stuck on scalability. If you want to solve scalability then you either can't have a true sci-fi game (because sci-fi is barely scalable) or you have to simplify fundamental combat to the point that it's stupid, which it is.

When players were first introduced to a new tech level of ships with new tactics and abilities, it led to profound tactical and strategic implications in player conflict. We need to consider incorporating the "Star Trek" model into our current model and have both work as equal options, otherwise combat will not evolve and neither will our gaming future.




...earlier when i wrote this and selected 'Post', my reply vanished so i had to start over, ugh
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-11-20 06:16:09 UTC
Why would higher tech level ships be more vulnerable than tech I and II ships?

You don't think tech I & II ships have engines, or sensors, or weapons, etc...

How come you'd be able to do damage to specific ship capabilities on Tech III ships but not I and II?

Doesn't make sense to me.

I'd rather see the ability to overheat subsystems for higher bonuses granted by that subsystem.
Infinion
Awesome Corp
#12 - 2011-11-20 06:41:55 UTC
because nobody's willing to give up old game mechanics?
Alaik
Lucifer's Hammer
A Band Apart.
#13 - 2011-11-20 10:14:51 UTC
I think the sheer amount of manhours needed to make this work would prevent this idea from getting further than the drawing board. It's a neat idea, but it would require a hefty chunk of coding to implement just to influence 4 ships directly, and also how every single other ship interacts with them.

Personally I would rather they spent their time doing tweaks to existing issues and making the game/UI prettier/easier to use, rather than starting off a whole new set of balance problem by redesigning T3 from scratch.
ACE McFACE
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#14 - 2011-11-20 10:48:35 UTC
Infinion wrote:
because nobody's willing to give up old game mechanics?

Yes thats it, theres centainly no floors in your idea

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.