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Mobile Warp Disruptor
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GlassCutter
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2014-07-22 16:44:59 UTC
Athryn Bellee wrote:
GlassCutter wrote:
If you never seen 50+ bubbles on gate here is small example of this problem: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1407/example.png


I don't know much, but that many bubbles is probably bordering (if not directly) exploit territory since it would take your client so much longer to load the grid when you jump.


But what we can do? Devs can remove it and after 1, 2 hours bubbles would be set up again. One more time: forever until next devs intervention or when someone would spend half day on shooting..
GlassCutter
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2014-07-23 13:31:58 UTC
bump
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#83 - 2014-07-23 13:38:13 UTC
Here is a nice spin...

Rather than always destroying the bubbles, as should happen as an option, have the NPCs hijack the gate camp.

Have them simply put a heavy patrol group on top of the bubbles, and destroy all capsuleers without the right faction who pop in.

Make them use points, and all the good toys.


I do not believe it is a stretch to say, that they have seen it done enough to have picked up the strategy involved here.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Iain Cariaba
#84 - 2014-07-23 16:08:11 UTC
GlassCutter wrote:
bump

bump = fail

If you have to bump your own thread, then apparently not enough people care about the topic you're discussing.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#85 - 2014-07-23 16:22:57 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
GlassCutter wrote:
bump

bump = fail

If you have to bump your own thread, then apparently not enough people care about the topic you're discussing.

So, you assume that all potentially interested players, who are also willing to post, get a chance to see these threads in a timely manner.

And you assume that they don't just skim over the first page of threads, but go back several pages in case they missed something good.

Because, using the logic you are implying, noone will be more likely to notice a thread just because it is on the first page.
In which case, why are you bothering to comment on it?

YOU are bumping the very same thread with non-contributive posts, by pointing out the OP did.

As to the mobile warp disruptor issue, it seems to be worth considering, and no idea is worth judging because it is or is not on the first page.
That measures popularity over short term, not value in any real sense.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#86 - 2014-07-23 16:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Ari Kelor wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
I have learned on the forums that nerfs are needed everywhere, just not in anybodies particular playstyle. Roll

If nerfs are needed everywhere, then perhaps it is your own ability to adapt that needs buffed.


Small gang is dying because of mechanics like this. Mobile Warp Disruptor's need to get redone along with the POS Code. Telling people to HTFU will not solve this issue as it can only become a larger problem as people see that it is effective. Changing the nature of the mechanics before is becomes a problem is a good solution.

Besides why would you want to shoot dozens of bubbles on the gate while your position is exposed and you're stuck, tactically that makes no sense and very few fc's will 'shoot' down bubbles while having a potential engagement with another fleet. On the other hand if there is no opposition, why would you waste your time shooting bubbles when you could just move on to something more fun.

Forever bubbles need to go, they're as antiquated as POS's. Adaptation has nothing to do with this, currently nullsec involves 3 types of pvp, Frigates (mostly interceptors 30-80 people), Covert hotdropping (10-30 people), or fleet warfare with bridging(100+ people). Every playstyle has a way to bypass or quickly move through hellcamps of bubbles.

There are many more styles of pvp in Eve and it saddens me to see us limit ourselves in Nullsec because we don't want to put a timer on Mobile Warp Disruptors. Stop trolling and provide a counter argument on why there shouldn't be a timer on bubbles, become engaged in the discussion and back up your statements with something of substance.


As a small gang PvP'er, I vehemently disagree with the above nonsense. Mobile warp bubbles are an excellent tool for small gang PvP'ers. I use bubbles to split response fleets up, allowing us to pick them off in small bite-sized morsels. Bubbles are easily circumvented by both inties and the use of bookmarks. I really don't understand this ire towards bubbles.

As for auto-expiring bubbles. I can cope with a 2 hr time limit on bubbles, IF their cost was significantly reduced.

Alternatively, I would rather have bubbles simply have less HP (especially large bubbles).

Remember, you might not like a bubble camped gate with 50 large bubbles. But that's 800m isk worth of bubbles that took an hour or two to setup. Furthermore, it often makes people feel "safe" in a system when an inty can come in and still tackle them with ease. Are they really a problem?
GlassCutter
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2014-07-26 02:03:36 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Mobile warp bubbles are an excellent tool for small gang PvP'ers. I use bubbles to split response fleets up, allowing us to pick them off in small bite-sized morsels. Bubbles are easily circumvented by both inties and the use of bookmarks. I really don't understand this ire towards bubbles.

As for auto-expiring bubbles. I can cope with a 2 hr time limit on bubbles, IF their cost was significantly reduced.

Alternatively, I would rather have bubbles simply have less HP (especially large bubbles).

Remember, you might not like a bubble camped gate with 50 large bubbles. But that's 800m isk worth of bubbles that took an hour or two to setup. Furthermore, it often makes people feel "safe" in a system when an inty can come in and still tackle them with ease. Are they really a problem?


Yes bubbles are a perfect tool for small gangs and solo pilots who can shape grid by using them. In this case nothing is wrong with them and nothing will change after adding 2 hours limit.

You talking about time and money wasted to set up these defending structures. Trust me there is no effort. 800mln isk is no more than 1 hour of ratting for smartbombing bs'es (1 guy can easily do that). You gonna shoot lage bubble way longer than it needs to set up and anchore. Do you really want to spent entire evening on shooting them? So if you put enough bubbles you can be sure they are safe and you can just check once a week if everything is ok. There is no effort in this. And now add timer to bubbles. Can you see difference?

But imagine you want to roam in deep sov 0.0, with intel, eyes 3 jumps before pockets with people and of corse lots of bubbles on gates. Your scouts can go freely through gates and maybe fast enough to catch someone who is not watching intel. And now things started to very be complicated. Your main fleet to move all the way through bubbles to your scouts. I don't care (no one really cares) about this poor guy who was tackled, it's just tool to spawn bigger fight with locales. Other tool is ESS, but as long as you can put it on anomaly, locales can safely scope money before you move your main gang to system. These 2 tools (ESS and tackled ship) are the only things which can force them to defend thier systems. They can dock and wait until you move. They are safe.
GlassCutter
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2014-07-30 07:14:42 UTC
bump
Distuth Brinalle
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2014-07-30 08:43:57 UTC
This may have been a good idea at some point, but it seems like all that's going on is that the OP is calling everyone who disagrees with him a moron and then sticking his fingers in his ears.

As much I dislike his method of handling criticism, permanent bubbles do seem a little silly, just from a entropy perspective. Space is full of stuff that can smash into bubbles. Over time, it makes sense for them to break down.

Just put a damn timer on bubbles. At least to the point where bubbles can't last longer than the corp that put them down.
Anthar Thebess
#90 - 2014-07-30 12:45:33 UTC
Support!

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#91 - 2014-07-30 14:09:46 UTC
Maybe make the bubbles operate a little bit like drones.

They are only active when the pilot who anchored them remains on grid.

Exception: Like fighters having offgrid range, a capital ship can anchor them and move off grid, but must remain online and in system.

Reasoning: The control of this device is too involved to operate without host ship support.
Possible benefit: rigs or modules to enhance the effect of the bubble become possible.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2014-07-30 15:07:00 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
HIC alts at lease have to pay a sub.

They can also provide eyes, mount a large buffer tank, and light a cyno. I fail to see how this is better.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#93 - 2014-07-30 16:16:04 UTC
GlassCutter wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Mobile warp bubbles are an excellent tool for small gang PvP'ers. I use bubbles to split response fleets up, allowing us to pick them off in small bite-sized morsels. Bubbles are easily circumvented by both inties and the use of bookmarks. I really don't understand this ire towards bubbles.

As for auto-expiring bubbles. I can cope with a 2 hr time limit on bubbles, IF their cost was significantly reduced.

Alternatively, I would rather have bubbles simply have less HP (especially large bubbles).

Remember, you might not like a bubble camped gate with 50 large bubbles. But that's 800m isk worth of bubbles that took an hour or two to setup. Furthermore, it often makes people feel "safe" in a system when an inty can come in and still tackle them with ease. Are they really a problem?


Yes bubbles are a perfect tool for small gangs and solo pilots who can shape grid by using them. In this case nothing is wrong with them and nothing will change after adding 2 hours limit.

You talking about time and money wasted to set up these defending structures. Trust me there is no effort. 800mln isk is no more than 1 hour of ratting for smartbombing bs'es (1 guy can easily do that). You gonna shoot lage bubble way longer than it needs to set up and anchore. Do you really want to spent entire evening on shooting them? So if you put enough bubbles you can be sure they are safe and you can just check once a week if everything is ok. There is no effort in this. And now add timer to bubbles. Can you see difference?

But imagine you want to roam in deep sov 0.0, with intel, eyes 3 jumps before pockets with people and of corse lots of bubbles on gates. Your scouts can go freely through gates and maybe fast enough to catch someone who is not watching intel. And now things started to very be complicated. Your main fleet to move all the way through bubbles to your scouts. I don't care (no one really cares) about this poor guy who was tackled, it's just tool to spawn bigger fight with locales. Other tool is ESS, but as long as you can put it on anomaly, locales can safely scope money before you move your main gang to system. These 2 tools (ESS and tackled ship) are the only things which can force them to defend thier systems. They can dock and wait until you move. They are safe.


I don't understand your point.

You can get fights now just fine, and the bubbles only serve to separate your scout tackle from your main gang. They create a nice obstacle in space where a fight might happen, where the defenders might counter attack. They serve as a purpose slowing down the reinforcements so the tackled pilot has a minute or three to kill the tacklers and get safe.

These are good things! I don't understand what the issue is?
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#94 - 2014-08-09 01:27:37 UTC
Well looks like this was address... Large bubble cost just went up like 10 fold... Each is now like 50m in jita.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2014-09-11 05:16:43 UTC
Just change it so anyone can unanchor them.

Send a notice to the owner when a bubble they deployed is being unanchored by someone else.

So if someone jams 60 bubbles out there, you run around unanchor them all then scoop them when they off-line -- go sell them and make a profit.

Beats the hell out of some fuel situation and lets folks make some cash finding a big area with them deployed - it also can be used as a trap - someone starts unanchoring and the owner's gang comes in from a neighboring system to nail them.

You could even attach that hacking mini-game to it and require a hacking module where success or failure, the owner gets notified and it still has that off-line timer before you can scoop it.

Lots of interaction potential this way vs some kind of fuel solution and it could motivate some to go earn isk by just cleaning up junk deployed in areas that nobody is really active in.
Rex Omnipotens
Terminal Velocity Enterprises
#96 - 2014-09-11 07:07:43 UTC
-1I think bubbles serve their purpose and offer unique and balanced game play. While yes I disagree with the explotive use of hundreds of bubbles to force a crash, bubbles are a tool and they serve their purpose. If you add the fuel idea or you force them to decay as a single use object, no one will use them and there will be another thread complaining about how they cost too much or they're entirely pointless now.

Additionally bubbles add to the content generated by some fleets, 2 examples:
1) Badgur and his Corp consistently camped a null sec pipe in etherium reach, using small gang tactics and a handful of mobile bubbles they shut down an entire pathway through null sec.
2) I forget the 2 alliances that squared off but the one was in prophecies and the other was in ishtars, the prophecy fleet was the local defender and when the time came for the proph fleet to bail they did so via a jb. The ishtar fleet's scouts picked them up a few jumps away and as they burned to give chase the proph fleet got stuck in a series of bubbled gates allowing the ishtars to catch them and finish the job.
So while bubbles may be the bane of every fleet caught in them, they still serve the purpose they were intended for and as such probably won't change... much...

Their use also generates a balance between the defender and the attacker allowing the defender to slow a fleet down letting them, the defender, to either get safe or form a response. If the fact that most of the defenders escape your tackle and chose getting safe over forming a response is what sets you off then your gripe isn't with bubbles it's with the community as a whole.

So all in all, bubbles are here to stay. We can cry about them and curse BoB for afflicting us with their auras of immobility when we're caught in them, but likewise it is also truly, good, right and salutary to sacrifice a thousand rifters when your pubbie scrublord terrabad targets trap themselves in their own bubbles cursing your existence as a Phantom specter haunting their every movement.
Anthar Thebess
#97 - 2014-09-11 07:13:21 UTC
I think you are wrong.
They are mostly used to block roaming gangs.

So you have :
1.People that are not in their space, without possibility to reship.
2.People that live in some space. They have all ships on a station or jump away.

So on the weaker side you have roaming gang - as each ship killed is gone from a fight , and each person loosing ship on defender side can easily reship.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Rex Omnipotens
Terminal Velocity Enterprises
#98 - 2014-09-11 07:30:21 UTC
You're entitled to your opinion, but what you're describing is an intended use of the bubbles. As for believing that the devs should "nerf" bubbles because you're a roaming gang with an inherit disadvantage... Thats just reductio ad absurdem. You're invading their space that they pay for and they maintain, if it was easy for you to come in and attack then you should just take their space. Does it smother null sec small gang pvp? Probably, but as in all things eve you can either adapt and overcome or go to low sec/wormholes where bubbles aren't a problem. Ceptors and nullified t3 make the world go round.
Anthar Thebess
#99 - 2014-09-11 07:39:59 UTC
This is not only small gangs, this is about eve.
Sorry , but nullsec should not be constant bubbles every 3-4 gates.

If you are not aware - putting large amount of objects on gate grid is prohibited - because this cause many issues.
Petitioning GM usually makes all of those objects removed - simply no one wants to bother GM each time he encounters 50 bubbles on gate.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
suid0
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#100 - 2014-09-11 07:56:11 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
This is not only small gangs, this is about eve.
Sorry , but nullsec should not be constant bubbles every 3-4 gates.

If you are not aware - putting large amount of objects on gate grid is prohibited - because this cause many issues.
Petitioning GM usually makes all of those objects removed - simply no one wants to bother GM each time he encounters 50 bubbles on gate.



To be honest if the GMs have actually agreed it is prohibited and they remove them then petitions is exactly what you need to keep doing. The only way you'll raise enough awareness with the right people is if it becomes a burden to them.

the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones  - Commander Ted