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Help with DPS and NPC Resistances

Author
Cluellix
Cluelix
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#1 - 2014-06-26 18:59:57 UTC
I want to understand... For this I will use a Drake as my ship and a Blood Clone Soldier Negociator as enemy.

From what I gather from the net, Blood Clone Soldier Negociator has (at least before Kronos) following resistances:

EM: 74%, Explosive: 85%, Kinetic: 81%, Thermal: 78%

To my eye difference is not that big so surely there is some non-linear math behind it, but...

The Drake using T2 heavy missiles would have following DPS output:

Damage with Kinetic is 504 DPS (because of the bonus)
Damage with EM is 382 DPS

So my question is why would be better to shoot EM with 382 DPS agains 74% resistance, and not kinetic with 504 DPS agains 81% resistances. It seems counterintuitive. what's the math behind it?

The resistance difference is only 7% but the DPS output difference is 30%.

What is the catch?
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-06-26 19:11:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Cara Forelli
Kinetic:
Damage applied = 504 * (1 - 0.81) = 95.76

EM:
Damage applied = 382 * (1 - 0.74) = 99.32

So in this case EM does slightly more damage because the resist is lower. This is basically just because the kinetic resist is so high for a blood clone. In a lot of situations the pure DPS boost from the kinetic bonus on the Drake outweighs the resistance difference, so it's usually worth using kinetic missiles. Even in this situation, with a very high kinetic resist, the DPS boost with EM is very slight, because the Drake does so much more base damage with kinetic.

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Cluellix
Cluelix
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#3 - 2014-06-26 19:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Cluellix
Dunno where that math is from but using this:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/calculators.php#missile

It takes explosion velocity and radius into account.

I get these numbers:

EM: 243 / 63
Kinetic: 340 / 65

And seems Kinetic has more damage anyway. Moreover after Blood Clone shield or armor is under 25% Kinetic does full damage, so however I take it it makes more sense to shoot Kinetic, if the numbers and above calculator are correct.

Where do you have those formulas from?
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-06-26 21:13:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Cara Forelli
Can you detail what values you put into the calculator? I was just using the 504 and 382 you gave me as "paper DPS" numbers before any losses from resistance/sig radius/velocity. That said, the velocity and explosion radius should have no impact on resistance choice (they have the same damage penalty either way).

I don't trust that calculator, because putting in an extra large signature radius yields damage above the base damage supplied, which is impossible. Unless I'm way off base, and please someone correct me.

Reference this thread which explains missile damage well.

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Cluellix
Cluelix
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#5 - 2014-06-27 14:46:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Cluellix
I used the exact values from Charge info in fit window.

Scourge
Explosion Velocity: 88.4
Explosion Radius: 228.95
Kinetic Damage: 457.94

EM
Explosion Velocity: 88.4
Explosion Radius: 228.95
Kinetic Damage: 357.10
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-06-27 15:06:00 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Cluellix wrote:
I used the exact values from Charge info in fit window.

Scourge
Explosion Velocity: 88.4
Explosion Radius: 228.95
Kinetic Damage: 457.94

EM
Explosion Velocity: 88.4
Explosion Radius: 228.95
Kinetic Damage: 357.10



Since you're using missiles with identical EV and ER values, it doesn't matter - both missile types will be affected in the same fashion, and will suffer the same degree of damage reduction, so if you're just trying to determine which damage type to use, it doesn't matter.

All you really need to compare is the amount of raw damage against the resists.

If your numbers were right, there is 74% EM resistance, which means 26% of your damage will get through if you use EM, and 81% kinetic resist, so only 19% of your damage will get through.

Kinetic: 504 * .19 = 95.76
EM: 382 * .26 = 99.32

However, your numbers are NOT right. With all else being equal, EM missiles on a drake should do 66.7% of the base DPS of kinetic missiles, but the numbers you have provided show EM DPS numbers that are closer to 75% which, simply put, is impossible.

I'm pretty sure your original DPS values erroneously included drone damage.

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Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-06-27 15:11:22 UTC
Cluellix wrote:
EM: 243 / 63
Kinetic: 340 / 65


Plug it in again. Using that calculator I get the same for kinetic, but 265 / 69 for EM.

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CompleteFailure
DAWGS Corp.
Negative Feedback
#8 - 2014-06-27 15:27:20 UTC  |  Edited by: CompleteFailure
Considering you can't even add drones/ammo properly to BC's loadouts section (and haven't been able to for the better part of two years) I wouldn't trust that calculator at all. The previous posters are correct, explosion velocity/radius have absolutely no bearing whatsoever in relation to resistances.

Quote:

Kinetic:
Damage applied = 504 * (1 - 0.81) = 95.76

EM:
Damage applied = 382 * (1 - 0.74) = 99.32


Quote:

Kinetic: 504 * .19 = 95.76
EM: 382 * .26 = 99.32


This equation is correct.

**EDIT**

The velocity/radius calculations are being made upon the DPS/resist calculation, so "total DPS = base damage * (1 - resist percentage)" is accurate. The explosion velocity/radius calculation is made using this DPS figure, not the base DPS figure. A very simplified way to look at it:

(total DPS equation) * (explosion velocity/radius equation)
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-06-27 15:29:18 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
CompleteFailure wrote:
Considering you can't even add drones/ammo properly to BC's loadouts section (and haven't been able to for the better part of two years) I wouldn't trust that calculator at all. The previous posters are correct, explosion velocity/radius have absolutely no bearing whatsoever in relation to resistances.

Quote:

Kinetic:
Damage applied = 504 * (1 - 0.81) = 95.76

EM:
Damage applied = 382 * (1 - 0.74) = 99.32


Quote:

Kinetic: 504 * .19 = 95.76
EM: 382 * .26 = 99.32


This equation is correct.



Well, the equation is correct - but as I noted before, the values definitely are not. A drake that does 504 raw kinetic missile DPS simply cannot put out 382 raw EM missile DPS with all else (fit, missile class and tech level) being equal.

Kinetic missiles actually WILL end up doing more damage in this case, as the difference between 74% and 81% resistance is about 36.8% applied damage against the EM resist, while the kinetic missiles will do 50% more raw damage.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

CompleteFailure
DAWGS Corp.
Negative Feedback
#10 - 2014-06-27 15:35:46 UTC  |  Edited by: CompleteFailure
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Well, the equation is correct - but as I noted before, the values definitely are not. A drake that does 504 raw kinetic missile DPS simply cannot put out 382 raw EM missile DPS with all else (fit, missile class and tech level) being equal.


Yeah, I have no idea if those figures are accurate or not, I was only speaking to the validity of the method being used to derive actual DPS. Edited my previous post while you were posting.
Cluellix
Cluelix
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#11 - 2014-06-27 16:06:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Cluellix
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


[...]

Kinetic missiles actually WILL end up doing more damage in this case, as the difference between 74% and 81% resistance is about 36.8% applied damage against the EM resist, while the kinetic missiles will do 50% more raw damage.


Cool, so whatever the numbers, Drake should shoot Kinetic to this specific NPC Blood Clone Soldier Negociator.

How about, when the Blood Clone Soldier Negociator's shields are under 25%? As I understand resist does not matter anymore at that point, right? So Kinetic will do even more damage from that point on and result of using Kinetic is killing the NPC in much less time than EM. Are my assumptions correct?

Thanks to all for clarifications!


PS: corect about drones!

Actual missile damage should have been:
EM: 306.7
Kinetic: 429.3
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-06-27 16:36:14 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Cluellix wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


[...]

Kinetic missiles actually WILL end up doing more damage in this case, as the difference between 74% and 81% resistance is about 36.8% applied damage against the EM resist, while the kinetic missiles will do 50% more raw damage.


Cool, so whatever the numbers, Drake should shoot Kinetic to this specific NPC Blood Clone Soldier Negociator.

How about, when the Blood Clone Soldier Negociator's shields are under 25%? As I understand resist does not matter anymore at that point, right? So Kinetic will do even more damage from that point on and result of using Kinetic is killing the NPC in much less time than EM. Are my assumptions correct?

Thanks to all for clarifications!


PS: corect about drones!

Actual missile damage should have been:
EM: 306.7
Kinetic: 429.3


Resistances still matter - you just start to get some damage bleedthrough to armor as you get that low (and you cross the regeneration peak). Once you get into armor, it's a new set of resistances, but it's not all that important. The tl;dr is just use the kinetic missiles.

Quote:
PS: corect about drones!

Actual missile damage should have been:
EM: 306.7
Kinetic: 429.3


Ah. Battlecruiser 4, then? That means you're talking about ~36.8% Vs. 40%. It's really insignificant. I wouldn't worry about it.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Cluellix
Cluelix
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#13 - 2014-06-27 18:29:36 UTC
No, it's battlecruiser 5.

SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-06-28 21:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Cluellix wrote:
No, it's battlecruiser 5.


Er... the drake gets a 50% bonus to kinetic damage at level 5, 10% per level. 429.3 is only 40% over 306.7.

If the missile DPS is 306.7 with non-kinetic, it should be more like 460 with kinetic at BC 5.

Not to be argumentative or anything, but the math on this one is driving me nuts. Lol

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/