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Tech 3 battleships

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James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#61 - 2014-10-24 20:27:57 UTC
As someone said earlier, that they wanted to see a long train to fly these, I'm starting to flesh out the universal skill requirements for advanced subsystems, and the one current proposed class of t3 battleships. They require perfect or nearly perfect support skills, and generally have a fairly high barrier to entry, as well as a very long train before the bonuses are maximized, with 5 3x skills to maximize the bonuses to subsystems, and a 5x skill for the overheating bonus on the hull.

Skill requirements:

Across the board for (racial) Flagship: 5x

(Racial) Strategic cruiser 5
Advanced weapon upgrades 4
Spaceship command 5
Leadership 5

Subsystems universal requirements:

Advanced Engineering subsystems: 3x

Power Grid managment 5
Mechanics 5
Energy Grid upgrades 5
(Racial) Engineering subsystem 5

Advanced Electronics Subsystems: 3x

Electronics Upgrades 5
CPU management 5
Signature analysis 4
Target management 5
(Racial) Electronics Subsytem 5

Advanced Defensive Subsystem: 3x

Hull Upgrades 5
Mechanics 5
Tactical shield manipulation 5
(racial) Defensive subsystem 5

Advanced Offensive Subsystem: 3x
Advanced Weapon upgrades 5
(Racial) Offensive subsystem 5

Advanced propulsion Subsystem: 3x
Warp Drive operation 4
Evasive maneuvering 5
Navigation 5
(Racial) Propulsion subsystem 5

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#62 - 2014-10-25 00:26:08 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
Now isn't really the time to propose T3 battleships because any discussion on it will be colored by the current T3 cruisers. Wait 'til they do a balance pass on T3 cruisers (and probably a tweak pass on the T3 destroyers after they're released).

I'd like to be soliciting the same sort of feedback, and tweaking my proposal this whole time, so that by the time they're ready to listen, I have a tuned up proposal, with all the MASSIVE holes filed in


I have got one, inspired by the coming tech3 destroyers (which seem to be inspired by the generation one Transformers from 1984 and Blitzwing says "hello" but shhhhhh...)

A tactical battleship that can "transform" into a current fast attack battleship, a marauder or a blackops on the fly.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#63 - 2014-10-25 01:31:33 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
Now isn't really the time to propose T3 battleships because any discussion on it will be colored by the current T3 cruisers. Wait 'til they do a balance pass on T3 cruisers (and probably a tweak pass on the T3 destroyers after they're released).

I'd like to be soliciting the same sort of feedback, and tweaking my proposal this whole time, so that by the time they're ready to listen, I have a tuned up proposal, with all the MASSIVE holes filed in


I have got one, inspired by the coming tech3 destroyers (which seem to be inspired by the generation one Transformers from 1984 and Blitzwing says "hello" but shhhhhh...)

A tactical battleship that can "transform" into a current fast attack battleship, a marauder or a blackops on the fly.

I'd rather not have them duplicate existing battleships. However, I am more than happy to help with making a battleship that switches roles in a similar manner to the t3 destroyers.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
viverxia
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2014-10-25 02:54:55 UTC
With the new T3 destroyers on the horizon i can see T3 Battleships working, But only if they are treated the same way as those (and not horrifically op as a Modular design would be)

Tactical battleships could function in much the same way.
Perhaps adding a "Sleeper Reconfiguration" skill to allow them to switch modes faster, and giving the default ships a higher cool down on their mode shifts.

I do not support the idea of Modular battleships unless T3 cruisers are seriously brought back into line.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#65 - 2014-10-25 03:13:20 UTC
Dont go along the lines of 'its allowed to be powerful because its expensive and takes a long time to train into'

it doesnt really matter how much it costs or how long it takes to train into, if there is little reason to fly anything else other than the one ship once you've trained into it, then it's problematic.

What ive read about the new dessies is certainly an interesting approach. But ill wait to see them in action before judging them completely. And in the same way, i think this thread is still premature.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#66 - 2014-10-25 03:16:18 UTC  |  Edited by: James Baboli
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Dont go along the lines of 'its allowed to be powerful because its expensive and takes a long time to train into'

it doesnt really matter how much it costs or how long it takes to train into, if there is little reason to fly anything else other than the one ship once you've trained into it, then it's problematic.

What ive read about the new dessies is certainly an interesting approach. But ill wait to see them in action before judging them completely. And in the same way, i think this thread is still premature.


Noted, thank you for the feedback. It is currently mostly a labor of love, as I am absolutely a fanatic about the modular ship concept and love the flexibility and theorycrafting that this enables.

Also, I am working hard at balancing them to be comparable to the t2 and pirate hulls if focused hard in one area, while being slightly better than a t1 hull in most regards if not focused hard in any area.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Solaris Vex
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2014-10-25 03:22:31 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Dont go along the lines of 'its allowed to be powerful because its expensive and takes a long time to train into'

it doesnt really matter how much it costs or how long it takes to train into, if there is little reason to fly anything else other than the one ship once you've trained into it, then it's problematic.

What ive read about the new dessies is certainly an interesting approach. But ill wait to see them in action before judging them completely. And in the same way, i think this thread is still premature.


Agreed, we wouldn't want to inadvertently undo tiericide.
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2014-10-25 05:24:14 UTC  |  Edited by: The Hamilton
T3's current idea (and one we see in the destroyers) is that they are not perfect at any one thing, but a Jack of all trades. We'll still have to wait and see how the destroyers work. But in the meantime, if your going to go through with the mental exercise of designing a T3 Battleship then take into account what CCP has already stated about their intentions to re-focus T3 when they balance them.
- What are all the aspects that Battleships are meant to do?
- Make each of these area's less powerful than current battleships and combine them in a way that players can switch and change, depending on the circumstance.
-Don't go adding entire fleet / area buffs, as that should really be left to the Command Ships.

If it were ever added to the game, I'd hope that I could switch from being a Malestrom Arty fit with less firing power to a Baltec fit maybe with less tank.
The only other flavour I really see in Battleships is for PvE and switching to that sounds stupid. It really doesn't seem to fit with the idea of Battleships which have two main roles. Provide alpha and tank.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#69 - 2014-10-25 05:37:58 UTC
The Hamilton wrote:
T3's current idea (and one we see in the destroyers) is that they are not perfect at any one thing, but a Jack of all trades. We'll still have to wait and see how the destroyers work. But in the meantime, if your going to go through with the mental exercise of designing a T3 Battleship then take into account what CCP has already stated about their intentions to re-focus T3 when they balance them.
- What are all the aspects that Battleships are meant to do?
- Make each of these area's less powerful than current battleships and combine them in a way that players can switch and change, depending on the circumstance.
-Don't go adding entire fleet / area buffs, as that should really be left to the Command Ships.

If it were ever added to the game, I'd hope that I could switch from being a Malestrom Arty fit with less firing power to a Baltec Hyperion maybe with less tank.
The only other flavour I really see in Battleships is for PvE and switching to that sounds stupid. It really doesn't seem to fit with the idea of Battleships which have two main roles. Provide alpha and tank.


I see 4 or 5 other roles for battleships, that aren't great in the giant massed armadas of 0.0, but are great for a smaller scale game.

Heavy DPS: It is hard to beat the DPS of a blaster battleship in close combat, and most things which try are rendered into dust by the massive firepower.

Long range sniping: Other than the extremely fragile attack battlecruisers, nothing can match the range and availability of battleship guns. While dreads bring more firepower, they are also harder to get a decent number of for anything smaller than the major blocs.

Heavy-Ewar platforms: These lovely ships have a large number of slots, making them able to fit a fairly large number of E-war systems. These can prove effective, although at present most forms of EWAR do not have t1 hulls bonused in their use.

PvE: Most PvE isk comes out of battleships at this point, so it has to be addressed. PvE balance, while definitively secondary, is an important consideration for battleships as a whole.

Pipe bombing: relies on battleships, as nothing else has the requisite combination of large numbers of highslots, a deep EHP well, sufficient slots to tank against your own damage type and put cap into. This is not a role which can be much improved on though, without making an over powered ship in some other applications.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#70 - 2014-10-25 07:34:36 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Why?

This is a thread I made because I like the idea and want to put a proposal up, get feedback on the proposal itself and see if a reasonably balanced version can be made to exist.


I asked why there should be a T3 BS, not your personal reasons for posting forum threads.
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2014-10-25 09:30:20 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
The Hamilton wrote:
T3's current idea (and one we see in the destroyers) is that they are not perfect at any one thing, but a Jack of all trades. We'll still have to wait and see how the destroyers work. But in the meantime, if your going to go through with the mental exercise of designing a T3 Battleship then take into account what CCP has already stated about their intentions to re-focus T3 when they balance them.
- What are all the aspects that Battleships are meant to do?
- Make each of these area's less powerful than current battleships and combine them in a way that players can switch and change, depending on the circumstance.
-Don't go adding entire fleet / area buffs, as that should really be left to the Command Ships.

If it were ever added to the game, I'd hope that I could switch from being a Malestrom Arty fit with less firing power to a Baltec Hyperion maybe with less tank.
The only other flavour I really see in Battleships is for PvE and switching to that sounds stupid. It really doesn't seem to fit with the idea of Battleships which have two main roles. Provide alpha and tank.


I see 4 or 5 other roles for battleships, that aren't great in the giant massed armadas of 0.0, but are great for a smaller scale game.

Heavy DPS: It is hard to beat the DPS of a blaster battleship in close combat, and most things which try are rendered into dust by the massive firepower.

Long range sniping: Other than the extremely fragile attack battlecruisers, nothing can match the range and availability of battleship guns. While dreads bring more firepower, they are also harder to get a decent number of for anything smaller than the major blocs.

Heavy-Ewar platforms: These lovely ships have a large number of slots, making them able to fit a fairly large number of E-war systems. These can prove effective, although at present most forms of EWAR do not have t1 hulls bonused in their use.

PvE: Most PvE isk comes out of battleships at this point, so it has to be addressed. PvE balance, while definitively secondary, is an important consideration for battleships as a whole.

Pipe bombing: relies on battleships, as nothing else has the requisite combination of large numbers of highslots, a deep EHP well, sufficient slots to tank against your own damage type and put cap into. This is not a role which can be much improved on though, without making an over powered ship in some other applications.


Can't say I'm convinced.

Only two of those things are widely used by all battleships. The rest are either "where" you use it, a very niche use, or Apocs and Scorpions (plus their variations) for Ewar. Even the SOE Nestor doesn't covert cloak. There are just far fewer roles for a Battleship to fill and thus I feel like T3 battleships is grasping at straws, at least until a balance pass for T3 Cruisers and Capitals.

Honestly what is a battleship that can fit missiles badly, sniper badly, brawl badly AND fit Ewar badly all at once gonna be used for?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2014-10-25 11:19:36 UTC
The only role I can think for T3 battleships would be anti capital ships and Structure/pos grinding (woudl be specially helpfull in high sec )..

Somethign like battleships with 50%-70% MORE dps than normal battleships but with tracking halved and weapons resolution around 2000m.


Since t3 destroyers will change their bonuses in space. Make so that the t3 battleship can change from a travel mode to a offensive mode where its siganture doubles and it dps doubles, while tracking drops drastically (YES like siege, but with no denfensive ubberness)

Besides that.. i think effort is better used to HELP the current battleships that are a disaster.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#73 - 2014-10-25 15:47:37 UTC
The Hamilton wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
The Hamilton wrote:
T3's current idea (and one we see in the destroyers) is that they are not perfect at any one thing, but a Jack of all trades. We'll still have to wait and see how the destroyers work. But in the meantime, if your going to go through with the mental exercise of designing a T3 Battleship then take into account what CCP has already stated about their intentions to re-focus T3 when they balance them.
- What are all the aspects that Battleships are meant to do?
- Make each of these area's less powerful than current battleships and combine them in a way that players can switch and change, depending on the circumstance.
-Don't go adding entire fleet / area buffs, as that should really be left to the Command Ships.

If it were ever added to the game, I'd hope that I could switch from being a Malestrom Arty fit with less firing power to a Baltec Hyperion maybe with less tank.
The only other flavour I really see in Battleships is for PvE and switching to that sounds stupid. It really doesn't seem to fit with the idea of Battleships which have two main roles. Provide alpha and tank.


I see 4 or 5 other roles for battleships, that aren't great in the giant massed armadas of 0.0, but are great for a smaller scale game.

Heavy DPS: It is hard to beat the DPS of a blaster battleship in close combat, and most things which try are rendered into dust by the massive firepower.

Long range sniping: Other than the extremely fragile attack battlecruisers, nothing can match the range and availability of battleship guns. While dreads bring more firepower, they are also harder to get a decent number of for anything smaller than the major blocs.

Heavy-Ewar platforms: These lovely ships have a large number of slots, making them able to fit a fairly large number of E-war systems. These can prove effective, although at present most forms of EWAR do not have t1 hulls bonused in their use.

PvE: Most PvE isk comes out of battleships at this point, so it has to be addressed. PvE balance, while definitively secondary, is an important consideration for battleships as a whole.

Pipe bombing: relies on battleships, as nothing else has the requisite combination of large numbers of highslots, a deep EHP well, sufficient slots to tank against your own damage type and put cap into. This is not a role which can be much improved on though, without making an over powered ship in some other applications.


Can't say I'm convinced.

Only two of those things are widely used by all battleships. The rest are either "where" you use it, a very niche use, or Apocs and Scorpions (plus their variations) for Ewar. Even the SOE Nestor doesn't covert cloak. There are just far fewer roles for a Battleship to fill and thus I feel like T3 battleships is grasping at straws, at least until a balance pass for T3 Cruisers and Capitals.

Honestly what is a battleship that can fit missiles badly, sniper badly, brawl badly AND fit Ewar badly all at once gonna be used for?


Well, turn that on its head, what about a battleship with 90% the DPS of a raven, with a small bonus to longer range EWAR like paints, that is a little faster than most combat battleships, and has something strongly resembling a tank? I can think of several uses for this, without stepping on any of the t2 specialties, and simply being "95% as good as" the best relevent t1 hull in each of several area.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#74 - 2014-10-25 16:02:48 UTC  |  Edited by: James Baboli
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The only role I can think for T3 battleships would be anti capital ships and Structure/pos grinding (woudl be specially helpfull in high sec )..

Somethign like battleships with 50%-70% MORE dps than normal battleships but with tracking halved and weapons resolution around 2000m.


Since t3 destroyers will change their bonuses in space. Make so that the t3 battleship can change from a travel mode to a offensive mode where its siganture doubles and it dps doubles, while tracking drops drastically (YES like siege, but with no denfensive ubberness)

This is one of the ideas I had by rejected initially, but if you think it would be a reasonable idea, and you get a second for it, I will add it to the list of concepts, and start trying to figure out how to make such a concept work, or role it into the "tactical battleship" concept as one of the modes.
Quote:

Besides that.. i think effort is better used to HELP the current battleships that are a disaster.



I will be looking at running another thread like the "MOAR battleships" thread to bring the current set of t1 battleship up 12-15% in on grid performance, and then re-evaluate the t2 and faction from there.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2014-10-25 16:16:25 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The only role I can think for T3 battleships would be anti capital ships and Structure/pos grinding (woudl be specially helpfull in high sec )..

Somethign like battleships with 50%-70% MORE dps than normal battleships but with tracking halved and weapons resolution around 2000m.

Tier 3 battleship hulls (Maelstrom, Rohk ect as they don't have T2 variations), fit XL guns but bonused except for tracking (their speed alone would kill it) but not blapping ability like when Titans where fitted as glass cannons a few years ago, like the assault battlecruisers with BS guns. An idea I have had floating around, for the new cap ship jumping gates ability through lowsec and pilots (the targets of said caps) afraid to train for caps to counter their enemy....BS with capital guns, but my preferred idea was short range guns only. Basically a fast dread on a BS hull with an XL gun or two (no damage bonus), able to counter enemy caps at gates without the extra training time required of jump drives and capital ships with the niche role of being able to destroy only large ships.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#76 - 2014-10-26 01:23:17 UTC
OP updated to reflect the transfroming battleship and anti-capital ship concepts.

I will say that the oversized guns concept looks and sounds much more like a t2 concept than t3.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2014-10-26 05:32:00 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Well, turn that on its head, what about a battleship with 90% the DPS of a raven, with a small bonus to longer range EWAR like paints, that is a little faster than most combat battleships, and has something strongly resembling a tank? I can think of several uses for this, without stepping on any of the t2 specialties, and simply being "95% as good as" the best relevent t1 hull in each of several area.


You keep coming back to Ewar though. What is a T3 battleship supposed to do without Ewar subs and is there room and variation enough for this without power creep?
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#78 - 2014-10-26 05:57:44 UTC
The Hamilton wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Well, turn that on its head, what about a battleship with 90% the DPS of a raven, with a small bonus to longer range EWAR like paints, that is a little faster than most combat battleships, and has something strongly resembling a tank? I can think of several uses for this, without stepping on any of the t2 specialties, and simply being "95% as good as" the best relevent t1 hull in each of several area.


You keep coming back to Ewar though. What is a T3 battleship supposed to do without Ewar subs and is there room and variation enough for this without power creep?


It is hard to say. I haven't got a good answer yet, as almost every battleship PvP role other than "blob member # 248" either includes EWAR for application of its own damage (missile boats with paints) or to hold a target in place (Tackle in all flavors) or as it's primary function (geddons and domi's). Some of that is due to the currently underwhelming performance of such ships, and some of it is due to these being the only roles which t2/t3 cruisers do not currently fill better than t1 battleships in mobile warfare, even if only from lower slot pressure.

That said, a T3 battleship without EWAR subs would likely be one of the following


  1. Optimized for one kind of PvE and making mad isk at it
  2. Badly set up for one kind of PvE and making okay isk
  3. A DPS ship worth bringing on a roam, either because it can keep up well and perform as well as a non-warp fitted t1 hull or because it is a DPS beast once it gets there.
  4. A logisitics platform with enough cap and tank to perform solo under neuts
  5. A swiss army knife for W-space operations, with the ability to transform role quickly off a depot or nestor and swap modes for bonuses in whatever is most needed at the moment.
  6. A fail fit for solo
  7. Really good bait resembling #5, but with a cyno and fleet ready to go
  8. Bad bait, because no one wants to engage it
  9. A possible RnK doctrine to replace golden fleet
  10. Primary

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#79 - 2014-10-27 01:26:33 UTC
Looking through the OP, I feel like a 'Tactical' Battleship would have a stronger variation with the modes- instead of stat level changes, wouldn't it make sense to change roles with different modes?

Like something like this:

Standard Mode:
  • The standard mode for the ship
  • Would have set hull bonuses, not unlike Faction BS bonuses
  • Basically a standard BS but stronger

    • 'Stronghold' Mode:
  • Increases resists, lowers turret/launcher effective range, amps up damage and tracking/exp. rad/vel. significantly, drops speed
  • Essentially becomes a 'stronghold', able to fight close-up enemies extremely efficiently, but has trouble at range

    • 'Longbow' Mode:
  • Halves resists, lowers tracking/exp rad/vel., amps up weapon range and damage immensely
  • Essentially becomes a superb sniping platform that will be easily ousted at short range

    • 'Caravan' Mode:
  • Decreases weapon bonuses and mass, increases agility/velocity
  • Allows covert ops cloak and bridge/covert bridge to be fitted, allows jump drive to come online
  • Activates fitting service availability from ship
  • Essentially an advanced transport mode, unable to fight strongly but very effective for moving

    • It would take a set amount of time so switch modes, likely a minute or so- during which the ship would be unable to warp, cloak, jump, lock targets or activate any modules. However, it would still be able to receive remote reps.

    Ether that or the 'Strategic Battleship' plan, which could have sybsystems like strategic cruisers and would be able to switch between roles (brawl, snipe, logi, covert/blops, exploration).

    Because now that the Tech III dessies are on the horizon, I feel like the Tech III lineup will look something like:

    Strategic Frigates-->Tactical Destroyers-->Strategic Cruisers-->Tactical Battlecruisers-->Strategic Battleships

    "A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
    James Baboli
    Warp to Pharmacy
    #80 - 2014-10-27 03:56:40 UTC
    Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:

    'Caravan' Mode:
  • Decreases weapon bonuses and mass, increases agility/velocity
  • Allows covert ops cloak and bridge/covert bridge to be fitted, allows jump drive to come online
  • Activates fitting service availability from ship
  • Essentially an advanced transport mode, unable to fight strongly but very effective for moving



    • This portion would be quite a problem to implement, and would be ridiculously over powered in a number of ways.

    List of unintended consequences for the mass reduction:

    1. Allows significantly more of them through WHs than intended
    2. Much lower fuel to bridge means they can be slingshotted across the galaxy too quickly for too low a price, with only jump fatigue to counter this.
    3. with I-stabs or nano fibers, this will potentially create instawarp battleships.


    List of problems with covert cloak:

    1. It would out perform the existing t2 blops ships, making it much harder to balance.
    2. CCP has said they do not want Cov-ops battleships, and all of the reasons not to do so on a nestor with meh combat ability apply much more on a tactical battleship that can then swap into a total combat beast.
    3. Make it into the premier hunter killer over night.


    Issues with a jumpdrive:

    1. Rebuilds the threat for Schrodinger's hotdrop, especially if it has blops range
    2. Fewer jump capable ships, not more.
    3. played up lore wise as large and hard to shoehorn into a battleship sized hull


    Also a big no on the blops bridge

    1. Partially obsoletes the blops ships
    2. Again, something existing bridging hulls need to make largish sacrifices for.


    And just a personal no to refitting service, because it doesn't thematically fit.

    Talking more,

    Flying crazier,

    And drinking more

    Making battleships worth the warp