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[Discussion] Black Ops Repurpose
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SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-06-25 14:51:02 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
I would like to see the black ops ships get some sort of logi role. Nothing too powerful, perhaps a 20% bonus per level to the logistics drones.

We have covert DPS, covert E-WAR and tackle, but no covert logi (Limited edition tournament prize ships don't count!)



Or do what they should have done in the first place, make the Nestor the Black Ops Logi ship.
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#22 - 2014-06-25 18:07:10 UTC
Giving it a mobile depot type ability for fleet use would be helpful...especially to support covert T3 gangs.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#23 - 2014-06-25 18:22:45 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
I would like to see the black ops ships get some sort of logi role. Nothing too powerful, perhaps a 20% bonus per level to the logistics drones.

We have covert DPS, covert E-WAR and tackle, but no covert logi (Limited edition tournament prize ships don't count!)

There is actually Covert Logi that is not the Etana. You can fit up T3 cruisers to do logistics. There are numerous AT matches which used T3s as logistics to great effect. They rep an incredible amount, but range isn't great. It doesn't really need to be as you all spawn fairly close and BlOps are more of hit and run tactics. So you shouldn't be spending a lot of time on grid anyway.
Grezh
Hextrix Enterprise
#24 - 2014-06-25 19:08:17 UTC
Personally i think it would be better if the Blops would all become dedicated bridging ships with good combat capabilities, for a support ship you only need to look to the Nestor for one. They already have a 7/6/6 slot layout allowing for shield and armor tank if the resist bonus is removed and the rep bonuses include shields, add a cloak bonus and jump drive and you have a dedicated blops support ship. You could even add the refit/clone bay/ship mainenance array.

Just a thought, if nestors are given the ability to process ice into fuel you could have the ability to have long duration blops roams in the area of space that contains the specific ice they need. Tho if this is put into effect the nestor will need to be quite fragile.
Saelem Black
Cog Banking
#25 - 2014-06-25 19:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Saelem Black
Aliventi wrote:

It must have been quite a while since you flew a BlOps BS because what you just posted is a flat out nerf to BlOps BS. There is no targeting delay on BlOps BS once you decloak. So that reduction in targeting delay bonus is useless. The reactivation timer for the cloak is already at 5 seconds, not the 10 seconds you proposed. BlOps BS got a pretty significant upgrade to how many ships they can bridge a few patches ago so the reduction in isotope use is not worth it. You are nerfing the drone bay and removing the tracking bonus.

Also, BlOps BS DO NOT NEED Covert Ops cloaks. There is simply no useful case in which a covert ops cloak will be beneficial. If you need to warp you align, decloak, and instantly go into warp because of the velocity bonus. Once you land you jump out or recloak. Warping cloaked is not useful because you are already invulnerable when in warp. It doesn't add to the ship as cloaked ships can't harm anything. Also, if you get your Covert Ops cloak CCP will nerf the hulls in some other way to compensate for the buff. Warping cloaked is not worth gimping BlOps BS.


If you're going to criticize me, at least know what you're talking about, a**hat. The reactivation timer of a covert ops cloak is the time before you can CLOAK AGAIN, not before you can target. Go read the covops cloak item card. It's 30 sec default, fly an SOE ship to see how that feels. The sensor recalibration time (that is, the time it takes before you can target once decloaked) is 5 sec. Blackops currently have a ROLE BONUS that allows them to target without a delay from a regular cloaking device. This is necessary because even faction cloaks have a 25 sec targeting delay. With the ability to fit a covops cloak, that bonus is no longer as necessary (hence I removed it in my suggestion) dropping the time to 5 sec, default. The skill bonus allows you to still aquire ships faster than other cloakies, and matches the original bonus at level 5.

Of course I got rid of the tracking. My entire suggestion was that blackops be turned into snipers.... hence the optimal bonus. See how many recons you can bridge with the existing isotope bay. It would be nice to bridge a couple cruisers, and maybe even an armor tanked T3 without having to refuel once or twice in an op.

Its obvious you have never flown blackops. Have you even ever used a ship with a cloak? You need the covops cloak not to protect yourself, but so people can't see you on d-scan while you're in warp. If they see you, your cover is blown whatever your goal. If you're not looking for a fight, fine, but now the gates are camped. You better hope your bridging alt got out safely. If you're trying to ambush someone, you lose the element of surprise.

Here's a thought: before you shoot your mouth off, why don't you actually think before you type?
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2014-06-25 19:25:16 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The current plan is to take one these two listed roles out of the Black Ops ship class and reshape them to do the remaining one well. If they are disruption ships using EW, they should have more presence on the battlefield for their pricetag. If they are support tools for surprise attacks and small gang movement into enemy space, then they should have the proper bay, range and tools to do so accordingly.

The role dropped out of the Black Ops would then be moved to a new class in the tech 2 battleship range to replace for the loss.

I really like this idea. Sexy black Abaddon anyone?
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#27 - 2014-06-25 21:32:06 UTC
Saelem Black wrote:
If you're going to criticize me, at least know what you're talking about, a**hat. The reactivation timer of a covert ops cloak is the time before you can CLOAK AGAIN, not before you can target. Go read the covops cloak item card. It's 30 sec default, fly an SOE ship to see how that feels. The sensor recalibration time (that is, the time it takes before you can target once decloaked) is 5 sec. Blackops currently have a ROLE BONUS that allows them to target without a delay from a regular cloaking device. This is necessary because even faction cloaks have a 25 sec targeting delay. With the ability to fit a covops cloak, that bonus is no longer as necessary (hence I removed it in my suggestion) dropping the time to 5 sec, default. The skill bonus allows you to still aquire ships faster than other cloakies, and matches the original bonus at level 5.

Of course I got rid of the tracking. My entire suggestion was that blackops be turned into snipers.... hence the optimal bonus. See how many recons you can bridge with the existing isotope bay. It would be nice to bridge a couple cruisers, and maybe even an armor tanked T3 without having to refuel once or twice in an op.

Its obvious you have never flown blackops. Have you even ever used a ship with a cloak? You need the covops cloak not to protect yourself, but so people can't see you on d-scan while you're in warp. If they see you, your cover is blown whatever your goal. If you're not looking for a fight, fine, but now the gates are camped. You better hope your bridging alt got out safely. If you're trying to ambush someone, you lose the element of surprise.

Here's a thought: before you shoot your mouth off, why don't you actually think before you type?

Of course I am criticizing you. Your idea is stupid and a nerf to BlOps BS. Why would I tell you that is a good idea?

Since apparently you can't read. Here are the role bonuses on the BlOps:
Can fit Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds (Time before you can recloak)
No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation (Time until you can target after decloaking)

Why would you want to have BlOps trained to V to get what you can already get with the role bonus? You are advocating for a Covert Ops cloak that requires you to have BlOps V to have what you already have with the current role bonus and a regular cloak. That's what people call a nerf. You are wasting a perfectly good (tbh two perfectly good) BlOps skill bonuses to try and fix things that can be handled better with the current role bonus and and possibly another buff to how many ships a BlOps BS can bridge. Again, why would I tell that is a good idea?

Oh and I love the idea of cynoing at 0-10 on a ship (scram/web range of the ship tackling and lighting the cyno) and sniping it. Let me tell you how great of an idea that is. Oh and lets go over just how awesome that covert ops cloak is going to be when you cyno in at 0-10 on a target uncloaked. Yeah. Really keeping your cover intact there! It's not like you appear in local or anything already. So again, why would I tell you that is a good idea? I mean... Do you even Black Ops?

Here is how you properly use a BlOps BS:
Tackle target in a scram web tanky recon/T3. That tackle ship lights the cyno.
Bridge in the ships and jump in the BlOps.
damp, ECM, TP, web, point, TD, neut, etc and kill the target.
SBs and recons cloak and warp. BlOps BS MJD away in a random direction, cloak, align to a safe, decloak, isnta warp, land, and recloak.

Literally 0 risk and.. wait for it... you don't need a covert ops cloak.

Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The current plan is to take one these two listed roles out of the Black Ops ship class and reshape them to do the remaining one well. If they are disruption ships using EW, they should have more presence on the battlefield for their pricetag. If they are support tools for surprise attacks and small gang movement into enemy space, then they should have the proper bay, range and tools to do so accordingly.

The role dropped out of the Black Ops would then be moved to a new class in the tech 2 battleship range to replace for the loss.

I really like this idea. Sexy black Abaddon anyone?

IIRC in some set of CSM minutes since this post CCP elected not to do it as it would mean that people would have to buy another ship to do what they do already.
Saelem Black
Cog Banking
#28 - 2014-06-25 22:12:21 UTC
Aliventi wrote:

Of course I am criticizing you. Your idea is stupid and a nerf to BlOps BS. Why would I tell you that is a good idea?

Since apparently you can't read. Here are the role bonuses on the BlOps:
Can fit Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds (Time before you can recloak)
No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation (Time until you can target after decloaking)

Why would you want to have BlOps trained to V to get what you can already get with the role bonus? You are advocating for a Covert Ops cloak that requires you to have BlOps V to have what you already have with the current role bonus and a regular cloak. That's what people call a nerf. You are wasting a perfectly good (tbh two perfectly good) BlOps skill bonuses to try and fix things that can be handled better with the current role bonus and and possibly another buff to how many ships a BlOps BS can bridge. Again, why would I tell that is a good idea?

Oh and I love the idea of cynoing at 0-10 on a ship (scram/web range of the ship tackling and lighting the cyno) and sniping it. Let me tell you how great of an idea that is. Oh and lets go over just how awesome that covert ops cloak is going to be when you cyno in at 0-10 on a target uncloaked. Yeah. Really keeping your cover intact there! It's not like you appear in local or anything already. So again, why would I tell you that is a good idea? I mean... Do you even Black Ops?

Here is how you properly use a BlOps BS:
Tackle target in a scram web tanky recon/T3. That tackle ship lights the cyno.
Bridge in the ships and jump in the BlOps.
damp, ECM, TP, web, point, TD, neut, etc and kill the target.
SBs and recons cloak and warp. BlOps BS MJD away in a random direction, cloak, align to a safe, decloak, isnta warp, land, and recloak.

Literally 0 risk and.. wait for it... you don't need a covert ops cloak.



So, not only did you completely fail to understand my original post, then try to criticize it, but now you're saying that the only use blackops has is for hotdropping. Very good. Your comments are bad and you should feel bad.

1.) If all you know how to do is hotdrop, get a f*king carrier. I'm not the one who sucks at blackops. You don't need the cloak either way, and its 3 wasted bonuses.
2.) My proposed changes were with a covops cloak in mind. Obviously. In my changes, the tradeoff for a covops cloak is slight increase targeting time, which is a perfect balancing agent for a cloaky sniper.
3.) Covert ops cloaking device is a buff, regardless of how thickheaded you are.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#29 - 2014-06-25 22:44:59 UTC
Saelem Black wrote:
So, not only did you completely fail to understand my original post, then try to criticize it, but now you're saying that the only use blackops has is for hotdropping. Very good. Your comments are bad and you should feel bad.

1.) If all you know how to do is hotdrop, get a f*king carrier. I'm not the one who sucks at blackops. You don't need the cloak either way, and its 3 wasted bonuses.
2.) My proposed changes were with a covops cloak in mind. Obviously. In my changes, the tradeoff for a covops cloak is slight increase targeting time, which is a perfect balancing agent for a cloaky sniper.
3.) Covert ops cloaking device is a buff, regardless of how thickheaded you are.

What I am seeing here is a lack of experience properly using BlOps BS. The sheer "Use a carrier! You don't need a cloak! You are wasting the role bonuses!" comment is making that pretty clear. Until you have that experience you will continue to spout off how you "need a covert ops cloak!" and try to rebalance BlOps BS to have them. You are incorrect about the need of a covert ops cloak. You seem to not understand that. I have tried, but seem unable to educate you about this.
Your inability to read and comprehend would probably be the cause you thinking that I am saying that "covert ops cloaks are a nerf" whereas I am saying "your attempt to add a Covert Ops cloak and make it balanced is an overall nerf". I know the line is hard to distinguish, but it is there.

So I am going to cease replying to you. This should be a constructive thread and your destructive, ad hominem filled, posting should stop. It's up to you if you want to stop or not. I will no longer reply to you.
Saelem Black
Cog Banking
#30 - 2014-06-25 23:25:40 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
I have tried, but seem unable to educate you about this.


Why do you play this game at all then, great omniscient one?

Since it's turned into a pissing contest, I guess there isn't much left to discuss with you. I'd point out that you were the one who came after me. If you don't have the teeth for a fight, then don't start one.

The fact remains that blackops are not serving their purpose as intended. My solution is to repurpose them into a sniping platform for dps support for cloaky fleets. The covops cloak is important because it allows you and whatever op you are running to stay hidden up until the opportune moment, as well as perform the same types of maneuvers (in warp) as your gangmates. This would make small gang blackops much more viable. The only situation that the cloak isn't needed is a hotdrop, which is an all-or-nothing prospect to start with, and is only viable if you have a clear number or skill advantage over your adversary. You can't cloak once the battle begins, so its sole purpose is for the sake maneuvering into position undetected. (and perhaps keeping safe.)

The existing blackops rely far too heavily on drones, a weapon system that is problematic if you have to cut your losses and try to escape. Sniping allows blackops to not have to be totally committed to the fight. If things go south, they can MJD and still be effective, or be sufficiently far from their targets for a clean escape. Sniping would allow them to be able to support ANY cloaky group, not just hotdrops, and (god forbid) not just pvp. Currently, blackops have been (with only a small amount of sarcasm) relegated to player owned stargates.

Stealth ops are all about fast, agressive attack, then a retreat just as quickly. Recons effectively cover the cloaky ewar. Blackops need to be support dps, and non-committal. The best way to do that is with drone-free sniping.
Vas Eldryn
#31 - 2014-06-26 01:37:20 UTC
Maybe a module like the marauders bastion module, redesigned to increase ? scanning, stealth, speed, agility ? something BLOPS specific.

seems fair to give both t2 BS's a module? does it not?
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#32 - 2014-06-26 01:38:27 UTC
Vas Eldryn wrote:
Maybe a module like the marauders bastion module, redesigned to increase ? scanning, stealth, speed, agility ? something BLOPS specific.

seems fair to give both t2 BS's a module? does it not?

That's basically the driving idea behind this- giving them something absolutely unique that no other ship has.

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#33 - 2014-06-26 01:55:52 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
Just a quick idea I thought of- sorry if it's insubstantial.

  • Black Ops get Covert Ops cloak
  • Black Ops get the ability to fit a clone vat bay with a limited number of clones (10 at most)
  • Black Ops get a small Fleet Hangar
  • Black Ops get a Ship Maintenance Bay (say 2 cruisers) only able to accommodate 'stealth ships'
    • (Stealth Bombers, Covert Ops, Expedition Frigates, Astero, Stratios, et cetera)

    This would make Black Ops into stealthy and mobile fleet ships, with the ability to bring in reinforcements effectively and quickly.

    Tell me your thoughts, or your own idea! Big smile

    Yes to covops, no to everything else.
    Galphii
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #34 - 2014-06-26 02:24:53 UTC
    Blops aren't far off being nicely balanced IMO. What I would like to see is a variant which is a capital ship killer. As one of the devs (I think it was soundwave) suggested, having a BS with a covert ops cloak and citadel torpedoes, a scaled-up version of a stealth bomber. There's too many frickin' capitals in eve and they need to explode more often.

    "Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
    Joe Boirele
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #35 - 2014-06-26 02:38:35 UTC
    Galphii wrote:
    Blops aren't far off being nicely balanced IMO. What I would like to see is a variant which is a capital ship killer. As one of the devs (I think it was soundwave) suggested, having a BS with a covert ops cloak and citadel torpedoes, a scaled-up version of a stealth bomber. There's too many frickin' capitals in eve and they need to explode more often.


    This would be a good idea, although I believe a lot of people really aren't happy with the application of citadel torpedoes (or cruise missiles).

    Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.

    "We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight!"
    Vas Eldryn
    #36 - 2014-06-26 06:57:54 UTC
    honestly BLOPS are lethal when used as intended, however they are a t2 BS with a pricetag, it would be nice if they had the attention marauder's have received.
    ChromeStriker
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #37 - 2014-06-26 07:28:34 UTC
    Split Blop's ships....

    One ewar/bridge/cyno ship with cov-ops cloak

    Second repurposed dps ship with massivly reduced mass, low hitpoints, high resists, basic cloak....

    Job done

    No Worries
    Sabriz Adoudel
    Move along there is nothing here
    #38 - 2014-06-26 07:36:11 UTC
    I like the present BLOPs role, the ships just need higher stats so that they are effective combat ships.

    Make them somewhere around the strength of the better T1 battleships or slightly better as combat ships (weaker by far than Marauders) and they will see some use.

    I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
    Galphii
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #39 - 2014-06-26 07:37:26 UTC
    Joe Boirele wrote:
    Galphii wrote:
    Blops aren't far off being nicely balanced IMO. What I would like to see is a variant which is a capital ship killer. As one of the devs (I think it was soundwave) suggested, having a BS with a covert ops cloak and citadel torpedoes, a scaled-up version of a stealth bomber. There's too many frickin' capitals in eve and they need to explode more often.


    This would be a good idea, although I believe a lot of people really aren't happy with the application of citadel torpedoes (or cruise missiles).

    The stealth bombers get a bonus to torpedoes, capital killing blops would get something similar Smile

    "Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
    Carniflex
    StarHunt
    Mordus Angels
    #40 - 2014-06-26 10:56:45 UTC
    I personally use them just for hauling my pod around a bit cheaper than carrier and/or bridging stuff. So my suggestions are following:

    (1) Ability to bridge/jump into target system without blops cyno - random location in system, however, the bridging in location is broadcasted in system similar to a cyno beacon and there is 15 to 30 sec delay before jump/bridge happens (so that if someone is present they can get there in a fast ship to greet you). Say 15 sec for "normal" system and 30 sec if the target is cyno jammed.

    (2) Something to extend the bridge/jump range. Be it then a rig or low slot module (to allow fitting on JF's)

    (3) Larger fuel bay would be nice. Blockade runners / recons are heavy you know.

    Other than that I'm not really caring all that much if their main role remains ganking - i.e., high damage but kinda glass cannons or their role is re-purposed into something else. Perhaps a jump/bridge capable command ship might be interesting but it can already be achieved by a T3 (and mobile depot for refitting if you want to) so not that essential. Perhaps a bit more convenient than T3.

    Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
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