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Probably debated before but - Raven Navy Issue, Rattlesnake, or Golem
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Bubba Styles
Bubba Inc.
#1 - 2014-06-24 16:32:21 UTC
I know it's probably been debated before but I'm looking to upgrade my Raven and unsure which one is better Raven Navy Issue, Rattlesnake, or Golem. Currently I'm mostly running Level 4 missions and can do them without a lot of problems in a Raven. I have about 25 million SP and great missile/shield skills and good drone skills. Also I have an alt that has specialized in in salvaging so the bonuses on the Marauders isn't all that useful to me. Checking prices it looks like the RNI and Rattlesnake are about half the price of the Golem so is it worth the extra cost?
Izzii
Kraaka Flyr
B.E.A.R.S.
#2 - 2014-06-24 16:49:13 UTC
Some ppl swear by the CNR for missions, some the RS.
All depends on what and how you like to play.

The DPS on CNR is almost equal to a Golem with the right skills. Torp Golem shreds L4s, so does a CNR (but at twice the ammo cost).

So its all a matter of preference, I myself run a Torp Golem and im happy with that, on grid, drop Mobile trac, and go to town.
Since u have a dedicated salvage alt, id bring him and drop the Mobile tract and possibly fit somet else in the free highslots.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#3 - 2014-06-24 18:46:00 UTC
Fleet typhoon is my preference personally from missile/drone platforms.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
0rch1d
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#4 - 2014-06-24 22:13:59 UTC  |  Edited by: 0rch1d
The accessibility (training time and cost) of a CNR + its sheer DPS and damage application makes it more attractive than the Golem, especially if you aren't looking to salvage as you go, or if you're already happily using an alt for that.

Then again, bastion mode is pretty killer, but the emphasis should be on bringing more gank than tank, and perhaps you aren't interested in running TPs on a Golem.

It's a very close to call, tbh. Unless you're looking to employ a specific style of play, then on paper and in general terms both ships can easily lay claim to the Gold Standard of level 4 mission running.

Some folks swear by the rattler, no doubt, but it just isn't in the same league as the above two in terms of DPS.

For me, however, the CNR's bonuses seal the deal.
Bubba Styles
Bubba Inc.
#5 - 2014-06-24 22:49:39 UTC
I think I'll go with the CNR for now. While it'll be cheaper for ammo than the Golem it's half the cost to fit.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-06-24 22:56:27 UTC
[Golem, pew pew]

4x Torpedo Launcher II (Scourge Rage Torpedo)
Bastion Module I

2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
100MN Microwarpdrive II
Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
3x Target Painter II

4x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II

Fits at all L5.

79k EHP, 2740 dps omnitank.
Rage torps out to 44.5km.
Faction torps out to 53.5km

9252 raw alpha with Fury.

1.8b total. If you swap the BCS for T2 the price drops 400m but you'll need a 5% CPU implant.


I would like to say that I've never actually sat in a Golem before (used to be a CNR L4 guy), but hot damn, this EFT fitting is making me real anxious to get back to civilzation and to my gaming rig to test it out.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-06-24 23:08:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
0rch1d wrote:
The accessibility (training time and cost) of a CNR + its sheer DPS and damage application makes it more attractive than the Golem, especially if you aren't looking to salvage as you go, or if you're already happily using an alt for that.

Then again, bastion mode is pretty killer, but the emphasis should be on bringing more gank than tank, and perhaps you aren't interested in running TPs on a Golem.

It's a very close to call, tbh. Unless you're looking to employ a specific style of play, then on paper and in general terms both ships can easily lay claim to the Gold Standard of level 4 mission running.

Some folks swear by the rattler, no doubt, but it just isn't in the same league as the above two in terms of DPS.

For me, however, the CNR's bonuses seal the deal.
Actually the RS claims the DPS crown now. The Golem and CNR are tied with an effective 8 launchers each. Unless fitting a 5th BCS to the CNR it won't have more DPS as the Golem should easily be able to fit 4 without sacrifice. If you are fitting a 5th BCS the difference is negligible due to stacking penalties.

The only real advantage of the CNR is the explosion radius of the missiles themselves. That said the TP bonus on the Golem outperforms it in damage application with 3 TP's if I recall correctly. Combined with the fact that 5 second TP's make juggling them no longer an issue and the explosion velocity bonus makes the Golem IMHO the damage application king of the options mentioned.

Then there is the 1500DPS RS kinda off doing it's own thing.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-06-24 23:42:16 UTC
Bubba Styles wrote:
I think I'll go with the CNR for now. While it'll be cheaper for ammo than the Golem it's half the cost to fit.


I recommend the CNR for starters. You can still fit two TP and a decent tank cheap. Target painters don't get a bonus on the CNR but they still help. I think it does about about the same applied damage as the Golem. The Golem might have an advantage on smaller targets due to the TP bonus but it's not that much.

I'm not sure where you get the half the cost to fit from. A CM Golem doesn't have to be bling fit because you can avoid most incoming damage by keeping range with a MJD. I don't lke the limited range of regular torps and long range torps do less damage than CM. Back in the day a CM Golem would make me cringe but with the CM buff and all I think it's the way to go.

Be careful with bling fits in SOE systems. Both my Golem and CNR are T2 except a cheap deadspace shield booster. Even 3 faction BCS make you worth ganking with Catalysts.

I don't know about the new RS but I hear it's awesome.
Conjaq
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2014-06-24 23:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Conjaq
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
0rch1d wrote:
The accessibility (training time and cost) of a CNR + its sheer DPS and damage application makes it more attractive than the Golem, especially if you aren't looking to salvage as you go, or if you're already happily using an alt for that.

Then again, bastion mode is pretty killer, but the emphasis should be on bringing more gank than tank, and perhaps you aren't interested in running TPs on a Golem.

It's a very close to call, tbh. Unless you're looking to employ a specific style of play, then on paper and in general terms both ships can easily lay claim to the Gold Standard of level 4 mission running.

Some folks swear by the rattler, no doubt, but it just isn't in the same league as the above two in terms of DPS.

For me, however, the CNR's bonuses seal the deal.
Actually the RS claims the DPS crown now. The Golem and CNR are tied with an effective 8 launchers each. Unless fitting a 5th BCS to the CNR it won't have more DPS as the Golem should easily be able to fit 4 without sacrifice. If you are fitting a 5th BCS the difference is negligible due to stacking penalties.

The only real advantage of the CNR is the explosion radius of the missiles themselves. That said the TP bonus on the Golem outperforms it in damage application with 3 TP's if I recall correctly. Combined with the fact that 5 second TP's make juggling them no longer an issue and the explosion velocity bonus makes the Golem IMHO the damage application king of the options mentioned.

Then there is the 1500DPS RS kinda off doing it's own thing.



I'm not so sure the rattler takes the crown, because the applied dps is much lower.
You basicly have launchers who has no bonus to the application of dps, and the drones neither has range nor tracking.

I still call for the Golem as the superior ship, it has the same bonuses as the RNI + a few goodies, like microjump drive, which makes tanking trivial.

oh and target painters to...


Golem all the way!


Edit; The golem also has explosion velocity to cruise/golems... Not sure why everyone says the RNI has superior bonuses when it actually has exactly the same as the Golem.
Locutus Mind
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2014-06-24 23:55:43 UTC
lol no love for the old rattler. I personally enjoy the versatility of this hull, whether you enjoy drones or torps you dide how to fly.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-06-25 00:36:14 UTC
Locutus Mind wrote:
lol no love for the old rattler. I personally enjoy the versatility of this hull, whether you enjoy drones or torps you dide how to fly.


I do love the ability to torp the BS and send drones after frigs + cruisers, especially with the uber buff to drone HP + damage, but i'm a sucker for single-damage platforms.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#12 - 2014-06-25 00:49:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ireland VonVicious
Rattlesnake is L4 king.
Nothing else compares when done well.
Latest expansion/update changed the game for the old RS. Solid 25% DPS buff. After already having one a few updates ago where it got 30% more due to DDA's and cruise missile buffs. Constantly landible DPS going from just over 900 to just over 1500. The RS has no competition.

Takes a ton of SP/isk/constant adjusting. Most effort and most reward.
It is the opposite of the lazy afk drone ship it once was. No ship will make you work harder in the missions but it achieves max possible results.

1733 cruise/gecko with implants is insane with the way it controls landible dps with 2 weapon systems.
Still having a fat tank no cap issues and a MWD.

They work great as MJD ships now too. Either fit style works. MJD can save a bit of isk compared to MWD version.
stoicfaux
#13 - 2014-06-25 00:52:14 UTC
Golem with 4 TP + 2 Rigor Is == CNR with 3 Faction TPs and 3 T2 Rigs.

In theory, the Rattlesnake can put out more DPS, but, as noted by others, the DPS application takes a non-trivial bite out of that extra DPS.


Personally, I prefer the 4 TP Golem.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#14 - 2014-06-25 00:56:55 UTC
Conjaq wrote:
Edit; The golem also has explosion velocity to cruise/golems... Not sure why everyone says the RNI has superior bonuses when it actually has exactly the same as the Golem.

RNI has an explosion radius bonus, while Golem has an explosion velocity bonus. Due to the way the missile formula works, an explosion radius bonus is better than an explosion velocity bonus.

But, the Golem makes up for it with the TP bonus.

However, the Golem has the downside of being more heavily affected by defender missiles.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-06-25 01:24:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Chris Winter wrote:
However, the Golem has the downside of being more heavily affected by defender missiles.
How so? Both should have pretty similar ROF and volley damage and have the same missile velocity bonus. Actually bastion increases missile velocity so whenever you are in it i would think you would have slightly less average loss to defenders.

Edit: Derp NVM, HP of 4 missiles vs HP of 8, duh.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-06-25 01:28:43 UTC
0rch1d wrote:


Some folks swear by the rattler, no doubt, but it just isn't in the same league as the above two in terms of DPS.


Please tell me how you get 1600 DPS out of a CNR or Golem I have to know

If you put your cruises on the battleships and have your sentries shoot the frigates, and meet in the middle, I dont see how there's room for doubt.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-06-25 01:43:08 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
0rch1d wrote:


Some folks swear by the rattler, no doubt, but it just isn't in the same league as the above two in terms of DPS.


Please tell me how you get 1600 DPS out of a CNR or Golem I have to know

If you put your cruises on the battleships and have your sentries shoot the frigates, and meet in the middle, I dont see how there's room for doubt.


I haven't flown the new RS but the fits I've seen that do 1600 DPS use torps.

There's EFT DPS and effective DPS. With the range of torps on a RS you're going to spend more time burning to targets than shooting them. Not even getting into how terrible they are at anything smaller than a BC.
0rch1d
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#18 - 2014-06-25 03:48:21 UTC
< -------- CNR elitist.



Blink
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#19 - 2014-06-25 09:14:46 UTC
I too am interested in how you get 1700 dps with cruises. all v, implants, faction damage mods, t2 rig, gecko and fury I get around 1470dps.

that said with smart usage of the dual weapon system I can see how the rattler will beat out other ships. it is however an active flying ship so if you want semi afk then it wont work for you. if you are bored with lv4 it can be more fun to have stuff to do, active flying.

also since less than half dps comes from missiles defender missiles arent so bad too and the bonus to the gecko hp means its like a high dps HAC flying wingman for you that you dont have to recall often or can just remote rep.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Narla Asketa
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2014-06-25 10:49:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Narla Asketa
With all V skills and 3% implants and augmented heavy drones it´s easy to get above 1700 out of the rattler. 3 BCs (2 CN) and 3 DDA II do the trick. Most people still put 4 DDA II on the rattler or forget that is has 5 launchers now and don´t realise that a lot of potential DPS goes to waste. Add 2 Rigors II and 2 PWNAGE on top and the applied dmg isn´t too bad as well. (1 Volley of fury cruises is enough to shred any painted BC) Paired with the selective dmg ( even the missiles can always shoot at least a secondary resist hole) and the frigate shredding of sentries/geckos it is definitely on top of the PvE heap in the BS class atm.
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