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CSM, pressure CCP to ban IsBoxer.

First post First post
Author
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#201 - 2014-08-29 23:25:09 UTC
Lilly Naari wrote:
The real issue here is not people useing 5-10 accounts, it's guys like Memory-Alpha who have 300+ and actively use 50-80+ at a time to both PvP and Strip every belt in a system in less then 2 hours. And an icebelt in less then 10 minuets.

My alt warped into an icebelt earlier today to mine some ice, and He was sitting there with an orca 2 freighters and 40+ Skiffs all bunched up in a ball.

I don;t think ISboxer should be banned persay, but this is getting ridiculous. When one person can control 50-100 toons "Simultaniously", there is a severe issue.

Besides, we all know these massive fleets are Isk Farmers selling isk and RMTing anyway.

40+ Man ISboxer fleet mains I have seen:

* Memory-Alpha - Operates out of Yoma
* Lucutus-Borg - Yoma, Elonaya, a few others

Come CSMs, put your collective intelligence together and do something, enough is enough.


Well, that can be a problem, but really, that is extremly rare. do you have any idea how much hardware you need to run +50 game instances at once? my laptop can run 2, my main PC rig can run 6 without lag if I turn the graphics down. If I tried to run 20 or more acounts at the same time my rig would crash.

While I can agree massive isboxing could be a problem, I would say their are mayber 10-12 players doing it out of the 600,000 or so active accounts. Not really a big problem. The average isboxer only runs 10-15 accounts. I personally run 4 accounts, but not with isboxer, I do it all manually. But still, I really don't see how the problem is big enough to justify the resources that would be required to track and stop it.

Isboxer is basically a keyboard emulator that copies actions across multiple clients. There is no way to prove if a client is using isboxer. Except for maybe scaning the machine running the client for known third party programs. But even then, the programers responsible for creating those programs could find a way around it.

Besides to do so would require CCP to add a clause to the EULA allowing them to scan clients computers activities outside of the EVE client. That would likely get EVE banned by most large countries due to privacy violations.

It just can not be done, at least not legally.

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#202 - 2014-08-31 15:04:33 UTC
If anything the CSM should pressure CCP to encourage more people to use ISboxer.

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Drachen Protectorate
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#203 - 2014-09-01 14:16:39 UTC
Lilly Naari wrote:
But it's cool, as soon as they get greedy and set there eyes on Nullsec (which they will because more and more of them are apearing and eventually highsec will get too crowded), and when the nullbears start loseing space and sov to 100-200 ISBOX fleets daily and hourly, the Nullbears will demand change and lo and behold, ISboxer will get banned. (Or some restriction put in that disallows the controll of more then a reasonable amount ofaccounts at a time.).


They are welcome to come and try. The best people using ISBoxer have been able to do is run a fleet of bombers. Anything more complex and they fail miserably. Boo hoo., let's see those 100-200 ISBboxer fleets come to null and try to do stuff. In PvP that is. I'm quite certain someone who can effectively run 100 miners is far better off to rent out a system in null and earn 50x more than they do in high-sec.

But that's just me, I'd go for higher proffits if I could run 50+ accounts. I'd strip a Large Cluster in 2 hours.
Black praetorian
Space Knights Templar
Jita Holding Inc.
#204 - 2014-09-06 09:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Black praetorian
Well. all i can say everyday i see tones of ISBOXERs and their number strogly increasing. And they go pvp, they have so many isks so they can do what they want, and normal players losing ships to them in PVP even with much more better skills by beeing overnumbered. IT's not fair, it will ruin game, ruining it's balance. Maybe CCP will get more money BUT soon they will loose much more when ppl will leave this game cos players will not play game where cheating is allowed officially.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#205 - 2014-09-07 17:00:50 UTC
Black praetorian wrote:
Well. all i can say everyday i see tones of ISBOXERs and their number strogly increasing. And they go pvp, they have so many isks so they can do what they want, and normal players losing ships to them in PVP even with much more better skills by beeing overnumbered. IT's not fair, it will ruin game, ruining it's balance. Maybe CCP will get more money BUT soon they will loose much more when ppl will leave this game cos players will not play game where cheating is allowed officially.


The number isn't 'strongly increasing' due to the fact that the setup is so difficult that most people couldn't be bothered with it at all & learning how to effectively control your 20 accounts that are trying to do different things is a huge learning curve. People multiboxing heaps of account will never be a problem in the big picture.

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#206 - 2014-09-07 17:03:02 UTC
Drachen Protectorate wrote:
Lilly Naari wrote:
But it's cool, as soon as they get greedy and set there eyes on Nullsec (which they will because more and more of them are apearing and eventually highsec will get too crowded), and when the nullbears start loseing space and sov to 100-200 ISBOX fleets daily and hourly, the Nullbears will demand change and lo and behold, ISboxer will get banned. (Or some restriction put in that disallows the controll of more then a reasonable amount ofaccounts at a time.).


They are welcome to come and try. The best people using ISBoxer have been able to do is run a fleet of bombers. Anything more complex and they fail miserably. Boo hoo., let's see those 100-200 ISBboxer fleets come to null and try to do stuff. In PvP that is. I'm quite certain someone who can effectively run 100 miners is far better off to rent out a system in null and earn 50x more than they do in high-sec.

But that's just me, I'd go for higher proffits if I could run 50+ accounts. I'd strip a Large Cluster in 2 hours.


Well there was those guys in Gents awhile back that boxed 20-odd supers between them & can be attributed to causing an alliance to lose their space, but they burned out because multiboxing like that is a level of effort that only the most insane could handle longterm.

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Absolutely Not Analt
Carebears on Fire
#207 - 2014-09-07 17:36:36 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Black praetorian wrote:
Well. all i can say everyday i see tones of ISBOXERs and their number strogly increasing. And they go pvp, they have so many isks so they can do what they want, and normal players losing ships to them in PVP even with much more better skills by beeing overnumbered. IT's not fair, it will ruin game, ruining it's balance. Maybe CCP will get more money BUT soon they will loose much more when ppl will leave this game cos players will not play game where cheating is allowed officially.


The number isn't 'strongly increasing' due to the fact that the setup is so difficult that most people couldn't be bothered with it at all & learning how to effectively control your 20 accounts that are trying to do different things is a huge learning curve. People multiboxing heaps of account will never be a problem in the big picture.


Honestly, this is why I haven't gotten into it. I just can't be arsed to figure it out, set up all my clients exactly perfectly so that the multiboxing will work, and all the other crap that goes into it. Eve is a game, not a job, and that seems a lot like work to me.

Eve is a multi player game. And you are the content. - Ralph King-Griffin Being meh at two things is not better than being great at one. - Lugh Crow-Slave

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#208 - 2014-09-09 12:21:33 UTC
LtCol RTButts wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
LtCol RTButts wrote:
it makes ISBoxer not more legit to tell that there are more tools to do the same.

and nice computer array, well know as example but still bullshit. tell me how he controls his logis in an incursion fleet via the same mouse and keyboard ? Yes, Yes, there will be also other tools that give the possibility to create a complete other screen with seperated buttons from different screens and so on, but still, this is an advantage a player or a ALT-TAB multi boxer didn't have. the main advanatge is the new screen. to be honest, from a technical point of view, this is far away from "just clone mouse and key commands".

I run multiple machines because I'm an old school multiboxer from the old FFA PVP mmo days. Even with isboxer I use multiple machines and screens. I only use the repeater function for my dps and the rest are separate. I don't use videofx or any of the fancy aspects other then the frame limiter and the CPU assignment. So even without isboxer I'd still be running vanguards and ganking people with my fleet.


edit : Be aware that part of your complaint about isboxer also applies to WINE and other virtual environments..


complaint ?

dude, you are NOT able to explain how you will manage it without tools or hardware like ISBoxer. tell us how you manage 10 accounts in a vanguard site ? shut down all the tools and repeater you use, open 10 clients on the same computer and explain how you manage them in a vanguard site at the same time.



Well, I use a Mac, so LOL and also no IS Boxer for me

Somehow I seem to manage just fine using Apple's built in tools to send keystrokes to multiple programs as well as having enough monitors to see all my clients simultaneously.

I do use a repeater, but if it is part of the core OS - is it 3rd party? OSX and EvE Client, that is 2 parties

Mac Pro - dual quad Xeons, 64GB ram, 6 monitors - 18 clients - NO PROBLEM - no 3rd party software, all done via applescript and tools that come as part of OSX
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#209 - 2014-09-09 22:54:17 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Mac Pro - dual quad Xeons, 64GB ram, 6 monitors - 18 clients - NO PROBLEM - no 3rd party software, all done via applescript and tools that come as part of OSX


Rekt

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#210 - 2014-09-09 22:55:26 UTC
If CCP bans ISboxer then they also need to ban use usage of Mac clients. Get rekt.

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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#211 - 2014-09-14 19:16:08 UTC
While I agree that isboxer should not be allowed you can't go banning people for just having multiple accounts, before the First graphics expansion around 08 I ran 8 clients with out a program, after that number dropped to 4 and then to 1 with a desktop that locks up and a laptop that runs slow. I have seen ganks with is boxer and those people have had ships replaced due to it, so basically ccp calls the other accounts bots but yet it allowed

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Darkblad
Doomheim
#212 - 2014-09-15 05:47:48 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
If CCP bans ISboxer then they also need to ban use usage of Mac clients. Get rekt.
There's a difference between using third party software and using that same third party software in a way
EULA wrote:
that facilitate[s] acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.
This also means that the request to ban ISBoxer by itself is the wrong approach (reasons here). Using software (or wooden sticks) in such a way should result in a ban if discovered.

NPEISDRIP

Mag's
Azn Empire
#213 - 2014-09-15 20:18:24 UTC
Lilly Naari wrote:
I know most of you on the CSM council hate highsec and wish it were not a part of the game, that's cool, but it's pretty sad your not willing to help stop a problem until it spreads like a plague into your area of preferred space.
Tin foil may help the issue you seem to have at the moment.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#214 - 2014-09-18 04:11:39 UTC
Darkblad wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
If CCP bans ISboxer then they also need to ban use usage of Mac clients. Get rekt.
There's a difference between using third party software and using that same third party software in a way
EULA wrote:
that facilitate[s] acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.
This also means that the request to ban ISBoxer by itself is the wrong approach (reasons here). Using software (or wooden sticks) in such a way should result in a ban if discovered.


Yeah you seem to have missed my point. Also ISboxer doesn't actually do those things as proven many times before.

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Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#215 - 2014-09-18 07:51:34 UTC
+1

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#216 - 2014-09-19 23:43:28 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Nidal Fervor
Doomheim
#217 - 2014-09-28 06:46:20 UTC
Isboxer gives the user an advantage comparable to the advantage given by a bot. For example, a player could not normally play 20 EVE accounts at once. The player would have to either be botting, or using isboxer.

This no doubt gives the player a huge edge in this competitive game. To have the combined income of 20 players is a huge advantage.

What other ways is Isboxer unfair on normal players? Some players have isboxed pvp fleets, bombers, and gankers, but these are the least of the problems. The worst of it comes from the economic damage, and the taking of content that was designed for an average certain number of players. I'm talking of course about mining anomalies.

The problem has gotten so out of hand that you'll be lucky to find a mining anomaly system that doesn't have an isboxer fleet show up at every spawn. Or in the worst cases, there is 4 or 5 different isboxed fleets. Just take a look in Osmon or Wuos ice anomalies and see for yourself. There is sometimes can be up to a hundred mining ships present, but most of them are controlled by just a few isboxer players.

Isboxer users have the same detrimental effect on EVE as botters. Botting is not allowed for a few reasons.

Bots take content from normal players
Bots probably pay for their accounts with PLEX
Bots have an unfair advantage of being able to earn more isk than players who don't buy the software (with exceptions)

Isboxers take content from normal players
Isboxers probably pay for their accounts with PLEX
Isboxers have an unfair advantage of being able to earn more isk than players who don't buy the software (with exceptions)

You don't see anomalies full of bots nor do you see constant complaints about them. And yet you do see anomalies full of isboxers and there is a steady yet constant stream of complaints.

So while technically isboxer is not botting - it is infact at least as bad as botting.

Sure if you want to get technical the technical they are slightly different, but the effects in EVE on the players are exactly the same and that should be what matters to CCP, not some technicality.
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#218 - 2014-09-28 07:45:38 UTC
Nidal Fervor wrote:
Isboxers take content from normal players


No. The reason mining anomalies are mined quickly is because CCP changed how they are found. You no longer need to scan for them, so everyone and his dog can find them. CCP even made finding them automatic.

The Ice anomalies are also too static and predictable.


Nidal Fervor wrote:
Isboxers probably pay for their accounts with PLEX


And?

It costs more RL money to PLEX an account than subscribe.(Amazon offers aside). The difference is in who pays the money. CCP gets more money when people PLEX than if they subbed.


Nidal Fervor wrote:
Isboxers have an unfair advantage of being able to earn more isk than players who don't buy the software (with exceptions)


No. Each account accumulates isk/resources at the same rate as any other account can. 20 miner accounts controlled by isBoxer will mine 20 times the amount of ice as 1 miner can. (Assuming they have the same skills and receiving the same boosts)


I think this is what you really wanted to say. IsBoxer should be banned simply because I don't like it.



User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#219 - 2014-09-28 08:16:13 UTC
Nidal Fervor wrote:
Isboxer gives the user an advantage comparable to the advantage given by a bot. For example, a player could not normally play 20 EVE accounts at once. The player would have to either be botting, or using isboxer.

This no doubt gives the player a huge edge in this competitive game. To have the combined income of 20 players is a huge advantage.

What other ways is Isboxer unfair on normal players? Some players have isboxed pvp fleets, bombers, and gankers, but these are the least of the problems. The worst of it comes from the economic damage, and the taking of content that was designed for an average certain number of players. I'm talking of course about mining anomalies.

The problem has gotten so out of hand that you'll be lucky to find a mining anomaly system that doesn't have an isboxer fleet show up at every spawn. Or in the worst cases, there is 4 or 5 different isboxed fleets. Just take a look in Osmon or Wuos ice anomalies and see for yourself. There is sometimes can be up to a hundred mining ships present, but most of them are controlled by just a few isboxer players.

Isboxer users have the same detrimental effect on EVE as botters. Botting is not allowed for a few reasons.

Bots take content from normal players
Bots probably pay for their accounts with PLEX
Bots have an unfair advantage of being able to earn more isk than players who don't buy the software (with exceptions)

Isboxers take content from normal players
Isboxers probably pay for their accounts with PLEX
Isboxers have an unfair advantage of being able to earn more isk than players who don't buy the software (with exceptions)

You don't see anomalies full of bots nor do you see constant complaints about them. And yet you do see anomalies full of isboxers and there is a steady yet constant stream of complaints.

So while technically isboxer is not botting - it is infact at least as bad as botting.

Sure if you want to get technical the technical they are slightly different, but the effects in EVE on the players are exactly the same and that should be what matters to CCP, not some technicality.


I'd take the time to write a serious reply if literally everything you said was not hilariously wrong.

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Weston Doshu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#220 - 2014-09-28 08:41:56 UTC
This discussion only shows how ample ccp are at moderating their game. Ccp gms need more pssssh