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A serious question for the EVE community RE: Player Conduct.

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Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#21 - 2014-06-23 09:44:59 UTC
It is the lowest level of a attention vore, parasitically leeching off attention by assaulting something in a blatant manner that others find value and significance in. Anything, anything to make themselves forget their insignificance. Seems to be one of the prime motivators besides primordial instincts.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-06-23 09:48:55 UTC
Domina Trix wrote:
This is what happens when rampant douchebaggery is not only allowed, but actively encouraged by a game developer. It is why the EvE forums and EvE as a game pops up every so often in human behaviour studies.


There is a difference between being a mean spaceship pilot & simply just being a douche. It's a shame that so little people are capable of comprehending the difference.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Haedonism Bot
People for the Ethical Treatment of Rogue Drones
#23 - 2014-06-23 09:49:43 UTC
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:

On a side note, thank you for confirming the top secret fact that I am not Erotica 1 :P That dude needs to get his story straight, all CODE agents are alts of the Mittani. Everyone knows that. xD



That theory was debunked by James 315 himself some time ago. Proof - the Mittani writes "hisec", we write "highsec". Therefore we all must be somebody else's alt.

www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com

Vote Sabriz Adoudel and Tora Bushido for CSMX. Keep the Evil in EVE!
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-06-23 09:52:09 UTC
Haedonism Bot wrote:
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:

On a side note, thank you for confirming the top secret fact that I am not Erotica 1 :P That dude needs to get his story straight, all CODE agents are alts of the Mittani. Everyone knows that. xD



That theory was debunked by James 315 himself some time ago. Proof - the Mittani writes "hisec", we write "highsec". Therefore we all must be somebody else's alt.


It is me, I am the alt master.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
412nv Yaken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-06-23 10:19:50 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Haedonism Bot wrote:
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:

On a side note, thank you for confirming the top secret fact that I am not Erotica 1 :P That dude needs to get his story straight, all CODE agents are alts of the Mittani. Everyone knows that. xD



That theory was debunked by James 315 himself some time ago. Proof - the Mittani writes "hisec", we write "highsec". Therefore we all must be somebody else's alt.


It is me, I am the alt master.


Confirming I'm an alt of somebody, that knows someone that spoke to someone's friends sisters boyfriends mum once.

It's crazy how connected we all are.

A True Champion of High Security Space
B Scripts
Serious Legitimate Hauling and Trade Corporation
#26 - 2014-06-23 10:49:16 UTC
I was having a lot of fun in Aufay shooting at -10 gankers, witty banter in local, making bounties. Then the person in question spoke in local, it was just sick. I docked and went to do something else.
CODE had made Eve fun for me again even though I was shooting them, it's a game and all good we were all having fun. Then this guy opens his mouth. If that's what's on the 'anti' side I'm done shooting at CODE.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#27 - 2014-06-23 11:14:46 UTC
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
At risk of starting a post in this way - I have a question for everyone and would love to see how my fellow players feel about this. So, you guys remember Erotica 1, right?

Relax. The reason that I mention E1 is simply to remind us all that due to the actions that E1 decided to take while gaming and meta gaming EVE online - a very large and very public outcry was started up due to his content in his "bonus rooms". There were strong opinions on both sides, one of the most epic threadnauts ever to exist in GD was created, and the end result (at least this is the word on the street, it's not like we as players can actually verify this) is that E1 was banned from EVE online.

Pretty much everyone knows about this, and PLEASE do not think I am trying to discuss or debate anything related to the E1 event. I simply brought it up as a point to compare the behavior that I have witnessed by two EVE players over the last few days.

So, I have had the amazing good fortune of witnessing a player, in open local chat - go on endlessly about how happy he is that the eve player 'Vile Rat' was violently killed by terrorists. This player then went further and added comments such as "He got what he deserved" and "one less tard in EVE". Shortly after that, a EVE blogger welcomed this player to his corporation and made a public blog post about how happy is to have a player like this as part of his corporation, and that he does not care about this players comments as long as it results in him "getting more press."

I'm actually at a loss for words, and this from a guy who posts some pretty impressive walls of text.

My questions to you, EVE players -

1) Is this kind of behavior at least as deplorable as the behavior that E1 engaged in and should it result in removed from the game?

2) Is openly celebrating the murder of another EVE player the type of thing that we as a community feel should result in the removal of this player from the community?

3) How about the CEO in question, the one who openly admitted that he was fully aware of all of this and did not care as long as it resulted in his blog being read more often? Is this type of behavior less, more, or roughly on the same level as the type of behavior that resulted in the removal of E1 from the community?

I'll go first and answer my own questions.

1) Yes, and I find it far far worse on so many levels. Conning people and stealing their stuff in Eve online is part of the game. Conning them into making a fool out of themselves on teamspeak for a few hours for the laughter of others is seen by many players as VERY wrong - but I personally find that openly celebrating the RL murder of another Eve player to leave anything that E1 ever cooked up in terms of offensive in the dust. This player should be removed from EVE at once and never allowed to return, as he has clearly he cannot handle EVE.

2) Yes, it is. I don't feel any "warnings" should apply in such extreme cases like this, and that a large portion of the EVE community will agree with me on this. In the case of E1, there were people who really felt he should be banned, some who did not - and it was quite a debate. I'm wondering how many of us will actually argue that celebrating Sean's RL murder in open chat should be considered acceptable behavior.

3) Tricky one. I personally find that condoning this type of behavior when there is clear in game evidence that the CEO was fully aware of this type of behavior before accepting the member into his corp, and clear in game evidence that the CEO admitted he did not care as long as it resulted in more attention being shown to his blog is far, far worse then anything that E1 ever did. I don't think total remove from EVE is the answer, but I think a very LONG forced vacation from the game would be helpful in a case like this.

Anyway, what do you guys think about this?

GM/ISD - I assure you that I am not trying to toll, re-open the issue of Erotica 1, or in any way violate the rules of posting on the forums. I feel this is a very valid conversation that the community should have, but of course - I understand and respect if this type of decision is unwanted or not welcome. Again, the only reason that I used Erotica 1 as a reference is that I feel is provides a very good point of comparison in a discussion like this.


I think this is something that needs to be discussed and sensibly. I always treat people with some form of respect. I try to never degrade a person. Seeing disrespect, especially to the dead, can be considered offensive. Although I didn't know Vilerat personally or in game. so I don't mourn his loss on a personal level. That doesn't mean I should Use his name, and memory, for some below the belt, cheap shot shock value.


My personal opinion. Does it need to be censored? I don't think so. Although I think OP's Example is abhorrent. CCP has given him the tools to deal with anything that he finds offensive.

Rob Kashuken
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-06-23 11:49:30 UTC
I'm too new at Eve to have come across Vile Rat directly, however I know the story of what occurred and who he was.

With that context in mind, my responses to the OP:

1) I'm not entirely sure. E1 was taking in-game actions & behaviors out of game. From your description, this would appear the reverse - taking a tragic event from out of game and bringing it in. Whilst I find the described incident abhorrent, I'm not entirely convinced that the actions are equatable. I do think though that it is going well above the mark of trolling.

2) (Note to ISD - I'm not intending to discuss moderation per se, I'm intending to just describe my understanding of what has occurred, based on information that has been made public)

I'd note for this one that as far as I'm aware, the player behind the E1 character hasn't been banned, only that character. Of course, as a general player, I'm not aware of (or should be aware of) any other details of this. I believe that I know of a current alt of E1, and wish him continued success in the game at his preferred playstyle. I believe that the only players who have been banned, are those behind the monument defacement.

Given that we have tools (petitions and the like), I'd flag it and leave it to the powers that be to apply their interpretation of the code of conduct. Had I been in that system at the time, I'd certainly have done so.

3) Given the above, this is a tricky one to answer. In-game, well... the CEO has made that choice, and I have full faith and confidence that they'll be under a lot of wardecs now, and/or actively hunted and awoxxed. That's content, and an in-game response to an in-game event (the CEO taking this guy in).

The blogs though, I'm not sure. To me, as a newer player, it has appeared that blogs, whilst being out-of-game, are often tacitly accepted to be a part of the game's meta. Plenty of in-game actions, especially concerning market trading are undertaken based off of comments on various blogs and online forums. I don't know at this point if it is something that would come into play.
KnowUsByTheDead
Sunlight...Through The Blight.
#29 - 2014-06-23 11:55:21 UTC  |  Edited by: KnowUsByTheDead
B Scripts wrote:
I was having a lot of fun in Aufay shooting at -10 gankers, witty banter in local, making bounties. Then the person in question spoke in local, it was just sick. I docked and went to do something else.
CODE had made Eve fun for me again even though I was shooting them, it's a game and all good we were all having fun. Then this guy opens his mouth. If that's what's on the 'anti' side I'm done shooting at CODE.


Get used to it friend. My logs are filled with the rage of a thousand angry carebears.

I have had dead relatives insulted.

My mother insulted. (This happens a lot. Not quite sure why...perhaps a default "insult?")

I have Audacity recordings of TS where a CEO who had just been war-decced for my awox exit, claimed that he needed to plant explosives at CCP HQ because they supported "terrorism," due to my safari.

I have been compared to that one German dictator.

I have been compared to the political party he headed.

Death threats. (Beyond count.)

Threatened with powerful nullsec friends, of course. This is a bog-standard.

But...

On the flip side of the coin, I will tell you a story.

I was in the middle of an "operation." The mark was looking for directors to help his corp grow. Of course, in moments like these, a person of my playstyle will jump on the opportunity to grab a director slot, if not for a group-safari, then for the corp itself, via a vote-out. Now this guy was a singular dude in a corp, just looking to make something grow. As we talked, and I "grabbed my Miasmos" (read Loki Blink) to "haul ore for him" he began telling me that the week before, his grandmother had died. Now I try my hardest to keep game separate from the RL issues, and keep playing as I normally would. But being a person who actually watched their grandmother pass in a rather horrific way...I was compelled to leave the corp for him. As I did his pod. His hulk and his wallet wasn't so lucky. But afterwards, he said to me...

"Despite my grandmother dying, I have to admit, you played me very well. Great scam."

I was shocked. I had expected tears, but none came, and in that moment...I was happy to be proven wrong about people who play as strict PvE dudes. We ended up talking until DT and discussing the passing, and his feelings, and ended up adding each other as contacts.

About a week later...

I log in, and behold, a convo invite. It was the CEO of the corp from the previous week. He began asking me questions about corp mechanics, security, background check, etc. And of course, as any person should, when another asks for help...I helped him.

He scrapped the corp he was in, rebooted, and has a growing base.

And I am proud of him, every step of the way.

Remember, not everyone out there is horrible. And when it comes to CODE. brothers or many of the BU bunch, you won't find a nicer group of individuals. Sarcastic? Sure. Trollish? Absolutely. Undesirable? Without a doubt.

But helpful and polite at the same time.

There is always sunlight, through the blight. Always.

Big smileBlink

Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes sense.
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#30 - 2014-06-23 11:57:55 UTC
Haedonism Bot wrote:
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:

On a side note, thank you for confirming the top secret fact that I am not Erotica 1 :P That dude needs to get his story straight, all CODE agents are alts of the Mittani. Everyone knows that. xD



That theory was debunked by James 315 himself some time ago. Proof - the Mittani writes "hisec", we write "highsec". Therefore we all must be somebody else's alt.


I forgot about that part! I really have a hard time keeping track of the latest trends in tin-foil hattery sometimes :(
KnowUsByTheDead
Sunlight...Through The Blight.
#31 - 2014-06-23 12:08:05 UTC
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
Haedonism Bot wrote:
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:

On a side note, thank you for confirming the top secret fact that I am not Erotica 1 :P That dude needs to get his story straight, all CODE agents are alts of the Mittani. Everyone knows that. xD



That theory was debunked by James 315 himself some time ago. Proof - the Mittani writes "hisec", we write "highsec". Therefore we all must be somebody else's alt.


I forgot about that part! I really have a hard time keeping track of the latest trends in tin-foil hattery sometimes :(


If it's any consolation...

I slapped my knee in a moment of clarity, realizing that with no Goonswarm AT team this year, if all CODE. guys are Mittani alts...

That means that Mittens is Isboxing the AT tourney. Shocked

Then queue :scanners head explosion: Ugh

Then I simply smiled after duct taping my head together...

Then muttered this to myself...

LolCoolBlink

Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes sense.
Dex Lysia
Doomheim
#32 - 2014-06-23 12:09:24 UTC
I wonder how much of this is a cultural / religious / racial thing?

I know nothing of Vile Rat other than seeing the occasional celebration of a guy for whom many hundreds of eve players had great respect. I am not intending to show any disrespect to this individual in what I say. This comment is not about Vile Rat.

I do, however, believe that whatever I think about someone I do know before they die isn't changed by their death. If I think someone is less than perfect before they die I don't suddenly believe they are perfect after death, as seems to be the way of some cultures / religions / races.

As I don't believe they have suddenly achieved perfection after death I therefore don't believe I have to start saying that they were perfect before death. If I were to speak ill of someone before death, I would therefore continue to speak ill of that same person after their death.

To me, and I'm sure many others, there is no such offense as "speaking ill of the dead" although I do, of course, respect other cultures' / religions' / races' right to believe that this is worse than offending a living person.

Given my above belief, this compares in no way to the harassment of a multiple living people and does not come close to a bannable offence.
Mithandra
B.O.P Supplication For Glorious
Dracarys.
#33 - 2014-06-23 12:09:26 UTC
Every one has the right to free speech (with various local caveats to written, electronic and spoken communication)

I have the right (also guaranteed) to feel aggrieved by comments made (written, electronic and/or spoken)

Were the comments made in bad taste? I think so, but then who am I?

Were the comments made actionable in the real world? Id be interested to see someone prove they were, and if it could be proven, then who would have jurisdiction?

Were the comments made enough to get a ban from eve? CCP thought so and its their game, no matter what we the players think, though in this case I'd more than happily hold ccp's coat while they administer a beating with the ban hammer.

Some people feel that it is ok to post stuff on the forums that they wouldn't dare say to someone's face, thinking that anonymity will protect them from any form of consequence. This is not right, but inevitably an increasing part of on line culture.

I don't like the goons, I'm sorry but there it is. I don't like their culture, their method of gameplay or their ethos. I'm allowed to say that, and the Goons are allowed to totally ignore me, or take umbrage. That's their right as well.

Vile Rat was a Goon, but I would not wish what happened to him on to any other human being, whether a Goon or not. He died serving his country which just goes to show anyone with half a brain, that the EVE persona is not the Person.

Anyone wishing death on a person or saying that they got what they deserved because of that persons in game character has broken all ties to decency, sanity and humanity. It is one thing to say it in humour, come on we all do it, but to actually mean it goes beyond the pale.



Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community
Spectral Tiger
#34 - 2014-06-23 12:19:07 UTC
Mithandra wrote:
Every one has the right to free speech (with various local caveats to written, electronic and spoken communication)

I have the right (also guaranteed) to feel aggrieved by comments made (written, electronic and/or spoken)

Were the comments made in bad taste? I think so, but then who am I?

Were the comments made actionable in the real world? Id be interested to see someone prove they were, and if it could be proven, then who would have jurisdiction?

Were the comments made enough to get a ban from eve? CCP thought so and its their game, no matter what we the players think, though in this case I'd more than happily hold ccp's coat while they administer a beating with the ban hammer.

Some people feel that it is ok to post stuff on the forums that they wouldn't dare say to someone's face, thinking that anonymity will protect them from any form of consequence. This is not right, but inevitably an increasing part of on line culture.

I don't like the goons, I'm sorry but there it is. I don't like their culture, their method of gameplay or their ethos. I'm allowed to say that, and the Goons are allowed to totally ignore me, or take umbrage. That's their right as well.

Vile Rat was a Goon, but I would not wish what happened to him on to any other human being, whether a Goon or not. He died serving his country which just goes to show anyone with half a brain, that the EVE persona is not the Person.

Anyone wishing death on a person or saying that they got what they deserved because of that persons in game character has broken all ties to decency, sanity and humanity. It is one thing to say it in humour, come on we all do it, but to actually mean it goes beyond the pale.






I wouldn't condone such behaviour, I expect the person saying it was saying it just to upset/annoy those that knew him and have the same play style.

Unfortunately this game does tend to foster hate between groups mainly because the groups take it too far. When people start to hate they start to loose perspective, hate's a destructive force for all parties concerned.
Alastair Ormand
Mine all the things
#35 - 2014-06-23 12:27:02 UTC
You want to suppress a persons right to free speech just because you don't like it?

Harsh as it seems, they have a right to express their opinions no matter how brutal it is.

Erotica 1 however was abusing people for entertainment. Big difference

I discourage running with scissors.
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#36 - 2014-06-23 12:29:23 UTC
B Scripts wrote:
I was having a lot of fun in Aufay shooting at -10 gankers, witty banter in local, making bounties. Then the person in question spoke in local, it was just sick. I docked and went to do something else.
CODE had made Eve fun for me again even though I was shooting them, it's a game and all good we were all having fun. Then this guy opens his mouth. If that's what's on the 'anti' side I'm done shooting at CODE.


Yeah, and I am sorry you had to see that.

The problem really boils down to the very odd trend of a very large majority of the players who self identify as "anti-gankers" being some of the most angry group of players I have ever seen in about six years of playing EVE online. Of course, it's no secret that I am a big fan of the CODE - but I can tell you that in all of my time flying with the CODE. alliance I have never seen a SINGLE player suddenly issue real life death threats or anything even close to the level of behavior that is clearly evident in the "anti-ganking" community. Truth be known - I fully support those who wish to form a "anti-ganking" group and attempt to disrupt the operations of the CODE. alliance - it is a wonderful example of emergent content and really makes things a lot more exciting and unpredictable. Also, of course - the sense of victory when you explode a high-sec freighter while a dozen logistical ships attempt to keep it alive, or you manage to still get the kill with a obscene amount of ECM on grid being fired at us.

The problem is - for every one player who identifies with some kind of "anti-ganking" movement and will give you a GF or a o/ or a lol or just any form of basic social contact there are at least ten "anti-gankers" who quite literally will flood local with some of the most intense levels of hatred and insanity you could imagine. This is compounded by the leadership of these groups being totally unwilling to keep their members in line in any way - which results in more of the same type of player joining them, by this point the vast overwhelming majority of the EVE playerbase would not want to have anything to do with this group anymore, leaving only a very specific type of person.

It is all a game, and it's a great game - and it's a lot of fun. The sad part is that some of these players have decided that in order to be "tough" they need to behave like this. That have no understanding that almost all of the time, even the most bitter disputes between groups of players in Eve usually end with a bit of smack tack and a chorus of GF and :) and o/ - after all, we are all just EVE players!
Mithandra
B.O.P Supplication For Glorious
Dracarys.
#37 - 2014-06-23 12:29:50 UTC
Alastair Ormand wrote:
You want to suppress a persons right to free speech just because you don't like it?

Harsh as it seems, they have a right to express their opinions no matter how brutal it is.

Erotica 1 however was abusing people for entertainment. Big difference


You just might want to investigate the "right to free speech" in your country. You may be surprised by what you find

Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#38 - 2014-06-23 13:05:31 UTC
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:


The problem really boils down to the very odd trend of a very large majority of the players who self identify as "anti-gankers" being some of the most angry group of players I have ever seen in about six years of playing EVE online. Of course, it's no secret that I am a big fan of the CODE - but I can tell you that in all of my time flying with the CODE. alliance I have never seen a SINGLE player suddenly issue real life death threats or anything even close to the level of behavior that is clearly evident in the "anti-ganking" community. Truth be known - I fully support those who wish to form a "anti-ganking" group and attempt to disrupt the operations of the CODE. alliance - it is a wonderful example of emergent content and really makes things a lot more exciting and unpredictable. Also, of course - the sense of victory when you explode a high-sec freighter while a dozen logistical ships attempt to keep it alive, or you manage to still get the kill with a obscene amount of ECM on grid being fired at us.

The problem is - for every one player who identifies with some kind of "anti-ganking" movement and will give you a GF or a o/ or a lol or just any form of basic social contact there are at least ten "anti-gankers" who quite literally will flood local with some of the most intense levels of hatred and insanity you could imagine. This is compounded by the leadership of these groups being totally unwilling to keep their members in line in any way - which results in more of the same type of player joining them, by this point the vast overwhelming majority of the EVE playerbase would not want to have anything to do with this group anymore, leaving only a very specific type of person.

It is all a game, and it's a great game - and it's a lot of fun. The sad part is that some of these players have decided that in order to be "tough" they need to behave like this. That have no understanding that almost all of the time, even the most bitter disputes between groups of players in Eve usually end with a bit of smack tack and a chorus of GF and :) and o/ - after all, we are all just EVE players!


This here in lies the problem. People tend to forget this is a game. They cannot disengage reality from the virtual world. Hatred this deep cannot be normal. I do think this kind of attitude should be stopped. Community wide, with community solidarity. TBH pure hatred does not belong in ANY game / sport. for ANY reason.

I hate gankers. I hate what they represent. Does this mean I should hate the person behind the concept? HELL NO!!!!! I hate the avatar. Now if in RL the ganker is a douche, then I'd treat him in RL as in game. With disdain. and have nothing to do with them. If he was a regular guy, then I'd have no probs swapping stories over a pint.
Marsha Mallow
#39 - 2014-06-23 13:11:36 UTC
Mithandra wrote:
I don't like the goons, I'm sorry but there it is. I don't like their culture, their method of gameplay or their ethos. I'm allowed to say that, and the Goons are allowed to totally ignore me, or take umbrage. That's their right as well.

Vile Rat was a Goon, but I would not wish what happened to him on to any other human being, whether a Goon or not. He died serving his country which just goes to show anyone with half a brain, that the EVE persona is not the Person.

I think this might be the core of it. Goons have had a reputation for obnoxious behaviour ingame and on various external sites for such a long time those who hate them seem to have a slight disconnect with reality (eg. Gevlon). A handful seem to think they are justified in launching attacks that spill over into real life. The monument vandalism demonstrated how idiotic people can be without even realising they've crossed into unacceptable behaviour.

Haven't seen this blog, but I saw part of the local logs, and it looks like sustained and deliberate trolling to a degree that might be considered harassment. Ero was banned for what amounts to excessive trolling that crossed an invisible 'line'. This incident sounds similar in some ways. The player involved should at the least receive a local gag or a GM warning, it's a bit harsh to permaban if it's a first offence. If they carry on doing it after a warning though, personally I think they should be banned. One off incidents in local are one thing, but taking it out of game and onto blogs and media sites is the kind of blatant smugging that should be slapped down.

On one hand, we've all seen people make distasteful remarks which should probably just be ignored. There's a danger in starting a trend towards reporting minor issues and kicking up a fuss. Extremely distasteful behaviour towards any group should not be tolerated though, whether they are bonus room berks or Goons.

The only ironic thing here is seeing people who probably went nuts over the Ero banning appealing to CCP to exercise the same type of discretion in relation to this incident.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#40 - 2014-06-23 13:14:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Alastair Ormand wrote:
You want to suppress a persons right to free speech just because you don't like it?

Harsh as it seems, they have a right to express their opinions no matter how brutal it is.

Erotica 1 however was abusing people for entertainment. Big difference

did you read that thread?
I did,
I followed it throughout,
there was everything from avocation of real life violence to threats, wishing ill of loved ones and careers
accusation of intellectual disorders and just about any vile thing that could be implied about a person.

and it was overwhelmingly coming from anti-gankers.


over fyi what amounted to a gullible fool being mocked out of game

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=