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ISBoxer: pay to win in eve?

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De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2014-06-23 14:04:30 UTC
Bland Inquisitor wrote:


What do you think EvE-0?

Bland Inquisitor


I think CCP have already ruled, publically, on the ISBoxer question. Nothing new or earth shattering has happened that would give them a reason to make them reverse that decision.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#62 - 2014-06-23 14:34:45 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Tell me what the difference is between 10 guys flying one ship each or 1 guy multi boxing 10 ships?

The only difference I know off is that it is easier to kill the 1 guy multi boxing 10 ships then 10 guys flying one ship each.



If I am a 25 pilot multiboxer, and you are a 25 pilot corp, I'll have 25 pilots in my fleet every time I use it, where as you'll mostly fly with 10.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#63 - 2014-06-23 14:47:59 UTC  |  Edited by: TheMercenaryKing
Bland Inquisitor wrote:
many of us have witnessed the increasing number of isboxer bomber squads in EvE. At first it was mining fleets, now its bombing runs, the underlying problem for me is an activity that should involve an entire fleet of people is being done (often more effectively) with a single person.

Is it cheating?

Its 3rd party software that enables you to essentially macro multiple characters in eve to duplicate and/or follow a lead pilot. Sounds like cheating to me. However I can understand why CCP wouldn't mind this, after all its one person paying 10x the amount that others are, financially that person is worth 10 other players.


then, is it Pay to Win?

Competitive games only do well when your on a level playing field. As soon as a person can legitimately buy their way into a positions in which he/she has an edge over opponents, its game over. Being able to purchase ISK with money, is counter balanced by being able to buy game time with ISK. For every plex a player sells, another player can play for free.

This is not the case for ISBoxing, if a player spends 10x more than his counter-parts he gains an advantage that is not offset. This then is paying to win.



Will CCP do anything about it?

I really hope so, short term it may mean more money generated by these individuals for CCP. However its essentially dominating the bomber/blops gameplay and removing that content essentially for 9 other players.

ISBoxer bombing runs have become so much of a problem in nullsec that the entire null-sec doctrine scene has changed. Essentially killing the use of anything larger than cruiser hulls in fear of bombs. T3 doctrines, ishtars and the like are all anti-bomber oriented. The problem here is, the higher efficiency ratio of bombing runs done with perfect timing via this 3rd party program has skewed the impact and effectiveness of an area of the game.

Unfortunately I believe this will lead to a bomb nerf, either towards bombers themselves or in the form of counter-measures. The problem with this is, it will be to combat ISBoxer standards, anyone unable to perform at the impossible perfectly timed commands of a computer program will be hit much harder and it will kill of a section of the game for many normal players.


As a former ISBoxer, let me respond to this.

Is it cheating:
NO, A macro automates commands requiring minimal human intervention. ISBoxer shares my mouse and keystrokes to all clients. I am still watching local, pressing F1, initiating warp, hauling ore, and defending from rats.

then, is it Pay to Win?
No, pay to win is me buying a 200m SP character and ISK, I am doing work inside of Eve to do what i can to win.

ISBoxer bombing runs:
Is only slightly different then an untrained team, you still need to setup warp in points, alignment and warp out points. it is not that ******* easy as you think.

Will CCP do anything about it?
No they wont. It makes them more money and how about you go and mine for 4 hours a day each day?

ISBoxer bombing runs have become so much of a problem in nullsec:
It's a problem because you have made it one. Killing an ISBoxer player is easy, constantly change your targets and make the player overwhelmed.

This is not the case for ISBoxing, if a player spends 10x more than his counter-parts he gains an advantage that is not offset. This then is paying to win.
A guy can answer a math question. A girl cannot answer the same math question. Therefor girls cannot do math. The one person is doing the same as 10 people BECAUSE HE IS 10 PEOPLE.
Dave Stark
#64 - 2014-06-23 15:02:21 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Tell me what the difference is between 10 guys flying one ship each or 1 guy multi boxing 10 ships?

The only difference I know off is that it is easier to kill the 1 guy multi boxing 10 ships then 10 guys flying one ship each.



there is no difference, but dumb people will whine about anything so i guess it doesn't really matter.
Bland Inquisitor
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2014-06-23 15:02:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Bland Inquisitor
Prince Kobol wrote:
Tell me what the difference is between 10 guys flying one ship each or 1 guy multi boxing 10 ships?

The only difference I know off is that it is easier to kill the 1 guy multi boxing 10 ships then 10 guys flying one ship each.



the difference between 10 players in 10 ships and 1 player in 10 ships is that one involves the intricate interaction between 10 players to achieve an objective, the other may as well be 1 man and 9 AI. You cut all the risk, exposure, communication, co-ordination, tactics out of the equation that comes with working with others in the game.

I really do not understand why people come to an MMO expecting to be better off for playing solo Roll

10 players should beat 1 player, no amount of money thrown down on the 1 player's side should resolve that. That is why the nano-nerf happend, that is why Combat ISBoxing Nerf will happen.
Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
#66 - 2014-06-23 15:30:23 UTC
Bland Inquisitor wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Tell me what the difference is between 10 guys flying one ship each or 1 guy multi boxing 10 ships?

The only difference I know off is that it is easier to kill the 1 guy multi boxing 10 ships then 10 guys flying one ship each.



the difference between 10 players in 10 ships and 1 player in 10 ships is that one involves the intricate interaction between 10 players to achieve an objective, the other may as well be 1 man and 9 AI. You cut all the risk, exposure, communication, co-ordination, tactics out of the equation that comes with working with others in the game.


"Intricate interaction" that can be reduced to replicating the same action x10? That whirring sound you're hearing is Sun Tzu, rotating in his grave... If ISBoxer made any decisions for the player, e.g. decided which ships to repair, which to warp away etc. you'd have a point. However, it doesn't.

Bland Inquisitor wrote:

I really do not understand why people come to an MMO expecting to be better off for playing solo Roll


Because apparently, the average group of ten players lacks the cognitive ability to match the superior strategy and coordination achieved by telling ten accounts to do exactly the same thing....

Bland Inquisitor wrote:

10 players should beat 1 player, no amount of money thrown down on the 1 player's side should resolve that. That is why the nano-nerf happend, that is why Combat ISBoxing Nerf will happen.


Indeed, they should. Their failure to do so is however less connected to game balance, and more a sad statement regarding the tactical and strategical capabilities of the common space lemming...
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2014-06-23 15:32:03 UTC
Barzai Mekhar wrote:


Indeed, they should. Their failure to do so is however less connected to game balance, and more a sad statement regarding the tactical and strategical capabilities of the common space lemming...


What's wrong with space lemmings? They're cute and fuzzy and don't smell that bad. Better in the ship that the Fedo I used to have, let me tell you something.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#68 - 2014-06-23 15:39:26 UTC
Bland Inquisitor wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Tell me what the difference is between 10 guys flying one ship each or 1 guy multi boxing 10 ships?

The only difference I know off is that it is easier to kill the 1 guy multi boxing 10 ships then 10 guys flying one ship each.



the difference between 10 players in 10 ships and 1 player in 10 ships is that one involves the intricate interaction between 10 players to achieve an objective, the other may as well be 1 man and 9 AI. You cut all the risk, exposure, communication, co-ordination, tactics out of the equation that comes with working with others in the game.

I really do not understand why people come to an MMO expecting to be better off for playing solo Roll

10 players should beat 1 player, no amount of money thrown down on the 1 player's side should resolve that. That is why the nano-nerf happend, that is why Combat ISBoxing Nerf will happen.


Its 1 person acting as a hive mind for 10 accounts verses 10 people controling 1 account each. 10x1 = 1x10. There is no imbalance here. If you hate mutliboxers, try doing it yourself.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2014-06-23 15:39:33 UTC
Bland Inquisitor wrote:

And now, whole fleets are being run by single players? Its a dark path eve is headed down, is all I'm saying..


Yes! The Dark Path to Fun.

A fleet in space, multiboxed or with individuals behind each ship is much better then station spinning or people quitting.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2014-06-23 15:41:09 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Tell me what the difference is between 10 guys flying one ship each or 1 guy multi boxing 10 ships?

The only difference I know off is that it is easier to kill the 1 guy multi boxing 10 ships then 10 guys flying one ship each.



If I am a 25 pilot multiboxer, and you are a 25 pilot corp, I'll have 25 pilots in my fleet every time I use it, where as you'll mostly fly with 10.



You're a renter in an alliance that takes up 1/2 of nullsec. Go cry me a river.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Tracy Smith
Doomheim
#71 - 2014-06-23 15:51:33 UTC
Multiboxing is the epitome of pay to win. It's not something I feel particularly strongly about, but come on, at least be honest about what it is. You are literally paying (or PLEXing) for a numerical advantage. I mean why else would you bother?

MMO companies like to word their Terms of Service carefully to allow for multiboxing. It won't be banned so complaining about it is a waste of time.
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#72 - 2014-06-23 16:03:46 UTC
I think people use ISBoxer to do Incursions now as well. I'm personally more concerned with bot/ISBoxer mining fleets which can be dealt with very effectively. Blink Not going to type it out again. Look back through my previous OPs if you like.

+1 but I don't expect CCP to do anything. Sometimes you just have to DIY.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#73 - 2014-06-23 16:07:44 UTC
Isboxer is ********. You're allowed to macro the **** out of your triple neck beard boatload of accounts, but AP to 0 and they're going to ban you like you just publically brought up WiS again, either way, you're flying a bunch of accounts without input.

Also, with macros and self made scripts I really do wonder if market bots are actually flat out legal.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#74 - 2014-06-23 16:35:10 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Isboxer is ********. You're allowed to macro the **** out of your triple neck beard boatload of accounts, but AP to 0 and they're going to ban you like you just publically brought up WiS again, either way, you're flying a bunch of accounts without input.

Also, with macros and self made scripts I really do wonder if market bots are actually flat out legal.

…except, of course, that you're not allowed to macro the **** out of anything, nor are you allowed to use any self-made scripts.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2014-06-23 16:35:40 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Isboxer is ********. You're allowed to macro the **** out of your triple neck beard boatload of accounts, but AP to 0 and they're going to ban you like you just publically brought up WiS again, either way, you're flying a bunch of accounts without input.

Also, with macros and self made scripts I really do wonder if market bots are actually flat out legal.


First I'm going to need you to define "macro" because right now I think that you think that "macro" = "bot" and that simply isnt true.

Secondly, ISBoxer ONLY CLONES YOUR KEY AND MOUSE COMMANDS, for the umpteenth time. It does not and will not automate anything for you, where "automate" = "you can get up from the chair and walk away, and it will keep going".

AP to 0 was a modification of the client directly, and was therefore directly breaking the EULA.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2014-06-23 17:10:55 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
1) I hate ISboxers

2) It is not cheating, I just hate them because I can

3) There is do or do not, there is no "win"

4) Everyone can do it, so it is a level playing field

5) If you don't like them, kill them, simple

To be devil's advocate here, you cant really argue number 4. since everyone can RMT, that doesnt mean its a level playing field. since everyone can use cheat codes/hacks in a FPS, doesnt mean its a level playing field. Just saying "everyone can do it" isnt a good arguement.

More EVE related, everyone can take SOV, so its a level playing field, but no one CAN take SOV without outnumbering the current blocs, which the blocs will quickly destroy and absorb the members of long before they actually become a threat of staying power.

More real world, everyone can become a multi-millionaire, or dominate an industry, but most wont because the peopel who are there first have it in their best interest to screw them into the ground with their already vast resources.

just nitpicking about it, number 4 isnt a good arguement.

Again, im personally not for or against ISBoxer, its just a thing that is, just making an argument for arguments sake.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2014-06-23 17:15:50 UTC
Elmonky wrote:
here is an idea:



If only there was some sort of in game faction of players that were doing their utmost to ensure thsat players are at keyboard and are not botting. If only that same faction could perhaps to approached, contracted, roleplayed or downright paid to hunt and destroy ISboxers... who let's be honest - Are REALLY DIFFICULT to miss seeing how they flood local with generic named characters such as

BobhasVD
JonhasVD
SuehasVD


etc etc ad nauseam


If only such a thing existed.


the benefits :

You can weed out the bots from the humans
CONTENT IS CREATED
Wrecks
Profit
The mighty ISboxing player is humbled by sheer numbers of people willing to gank them in the face


Downsides :
Nope *tumbleweed*




Is that a bandwagon I see rolling passed in the sandbox?

Apparently ArcheAge had implemented a system where players could train a skill that let them report "bots" or "cheaters", and fi 5 people reported them, that player was made Kill On Sight to all other players immediately.

For some reason an irregularly high amount of reports were on players carrying the expensive items/gear/equipment, but im sure thats just to make their cheating more efficient and no way tied to the fact there were open loot mechanics.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2014-06-23 17:16:08 UTC
Bland Inquisitor wrote:
Is it cheating?

Its 3rd party software that enables you to essentially macro multiple characters in eve to duplicate and/or follow a lead pilot. Sounds like cheating to me. However I can understand why CCP wouldn't mind this, after all its one person paying 10x the amount that others are, financially that person is worth 10 other players.



eh?

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#79 - 2014-06-23 17:22:40 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

To be devil's advocate here, you cant really argue number 4. since everyone can RMT, that doesnt mean its a level playing field. since everyone can use cheat codes/hacks in a FPS, doesnt mean its a level playing field. Just saying "everyone can do it" isnt a good arguement.
More EVE related, everyone can take SOV, so its a level playing field, but no one CAN take SOV without outnumbering the current blocs, which the blocs will quickly destroy and absorb the members of long before they actually become a threat of staying power.
More real world, everyone can become a multi-millionaire, or dominate an industry, but most wont because the peopel who are there first have it in their best interest to screw them into the ground with their already vast resources.

just nitpicking about it, number 4 isnt a good arguement.
Again, im personally not for or against ISBoxer, its just a thing that is, just making an argument for arguments sake.


Ah some one who likes the Game of Debate. I knew I liked you for a reason :)

What is preventing anyone from using multibox software? Its easily obtainable, its easy to use and its not illegal, therefore, anyone can use it.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Aspalis
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2014-06-23 17:28:07 UTC
Bland Inquisitor wrote:


10 players should beat 1 player, no amount of money thrown down on the 1 player's side should resolve that. That is why the nano-nerf happend, that is why Combat ISBoxing Nerf will happen.


Sun Tsu once said; Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL!

So, show us the kill mail where ten of you got absolutely slaughtered by one guy ISBoxing because that is what it is really what it is about isn't it? That you got ******* destroyed, feeling absolutely humilated and now you are on the forums, practically begging for a nerf.

Marcus Gord: "Aspalis is an onion. Many layers, each one makes you cry."