Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I actually quit eve when Rise killed the geddon last time. It was my favorite ship how it was. Then with the introduction of the navy harb, amarr strayed further from the mark. Its not that I hate the idea behind the new geddon, but why did you have to destroy my favorite ship to do it? Amarr's specialty was strong armor tanks, and a cheap ship with 8 lows embodied that perfectly. Now ALL amarr BSs are 4 mids, 7 lows. To make matters worse, they gave the navy brutix more lows than the navy harb. They really did gut my favorite style of gameplay. The abaddon can muster more damage and more tank, but requires perfect fitting skills and cap skills, the apoc has a weird specialization. The geddon had amazing tank, versatility, and price and they turned it into a blood ship.

I'm also worried that it was partially done because they are planning to do the same to the redeemer, which at the moment is debatably the best blackops BECAUSE its a gunboat. Drones/steath is a terrible combination, but CCP seems to have it in their heads that they two should be married. (See Pilgrim, SOE, Sin, Covops) The Sin is, not so debatably, the worst battleship class ship in the game for a reason. CCP stahp.

All right, this is pretty much my satirical line of thought after reading your post:

Because the Arazu totally has a lot of drones because it's Gallente AND has cloaking, right? Amarr has drones as a weapon system, and E-war + lasers is taken up by Blood Raider ships already, so of course the Amarrian E-war boats have strong drone capabilities :/

Let's not forget the staggering amount of drones used by Stealth Bombers, either! In fact, they love drones so very much that I bet even the cloaky AT Angel ships have loads of them! What's that? They don't!? That's right, in fact - the Moracha can't field the medium flight that the Cynabal can, and the Chremoas just has a larger bay.

How could I have forgotten the Covops frigates! Let's see here... well, none for the Buzzard, Anathema, or the Cheetah... but the Helios has a bonus to a single thermal drone! SEE!!! Even the exploration frigates are drone-biased!
(end of satire)

The Sin is probably one of the most used Black Ops in the game because it is the easiest to get a high amount of tank on while still having a large amount of gank on it. You don't have to spend fitting on massive guns to get it to work... Past that, I think it has got to be the Panther.

You just seem upset about some changes to the game, but aren't bringing up any substance to your argument besides bias. I'd take you a LOT more seriously if you actually had reason and substance.

You want to talk about not being taken seriously? Your entire argument hinges on non-combat ships and alliance tournament rewards. Very good. Its also quite clear you have never flown a Sin, or really done any blackops, for that matter. Talk to literally any Sin pilot and ask about drones and cloaking. Take 10 minutes to do a forum search on most popular blackops. Redeemer is by far the highest.

Now, lets go through combat capable ships that are:
1. actually available to the general public
2. at least one cloak bonus
3. above average drone capabilities for their ship class (That is, with any reasonable fit, at least 1/3 of dps is from drones)
Redeemer, Panther, Sin, Pilgrim, Arazu, Rapier, Astero, Stratios

Now, all other combat capable, cloaky ships.
Widow, Falcon, stealth bombers.

An argument could be made for t3s, but even if you added them and stealth bombers (which have their own set of issues based on their specialization), HALF OF ALL SHIPS WITH CLOAKING CAPABILITIES RELY HEAVILY ON DRONES, and those are spread across 5 distinct factions! Furthermore, the only cloaky ships which have any real dps or tank are blackops. 3 of which rely heavily on slow (or immobile) drones.

Ah, I see, forum searches and posts now determine the best ships of any given class. It's all so clear to me now. Interesting that you choose to cherry pick what you mean by "combat ships" so that you eliminate some of the most useful ships in the game from my example pool just because you can. I suppose you're just not happy about having solo PvP worthy DPS from any ol' cloaky ship. Don't think that I insult you just for the sake of doing so, it's just that I don't agree with your point of view and wanted to add some playfulness to my arguments. Sorry if any offense was taken.



So being above average now means that you get less than half of your DPS from drones, instead of actually being able to deal more DPS than, say, a Vexor, with just drones. You know the Stabber fits this bill with 220mm Vulcan autocannons and no gyros, right? Drone boats are defined as having drones as their primary weapon system, so your analysis should include only ships with 50% or more of their DPS from drones. This isn't a hard process.



Oh, good to know that you just rule out Stealth Bombers because they're specialized. I guess I should just count out everything with a range bonus to E-war because with links you won't be able to send drones at people from preferred operation ranges.

By far, the most foolish, naive thing you have said is something you've already typed in capital letters for everyone to see. Recons of any shape and size rely most on their E-war and not a DPS stat. The Curse's neuts can do more damage than its drones ever hope to do in an engagement, either metaphorically (disabling ships) or pretty literally (turning off hardeners/stopping active tanks).

If anything, the Combat cloaky ships are the SoE ships, Black Ops, T3, and Stealth Bombers. Cloaky T3 are used extremely commonly in many places in EVE, so I wouldn't rule them out for any reason, ever.

So you have the SoE ships, Sin, and I'll give you the Pilgrim just because you seem like the type that needs a cookie, and it makes sense to put the Pilgrim in that category.

Now, let's take a look at what we've got for combat cloakies...
Astero, Pilgrim, Stratios, Sin ----- DRONE CLOAKIES
vs
Legion, Tengu, Proteus, Loki, Panther, Redeemer, Widow, Arazu ----- OTHER CLOAKIES
(and Hound, Nemesis, Manticore, Purifier, technically Rapier as well)

However, you still haven't stated what you have against drones in general, and you've just spun details in your favor to a degree that doesn't make any sense at all... 1/3 of your DPS makes you 'heavily reliant' on them? It looks more like 1/3 of all cloakies are reliant upon drones.

EDIT: Now that you've read through all of that, I hope what I say next comes as a release:

My Personal Opinion about cloaky combat ships - Too many damn drones on my overview, get rid of them! Well, not the light ones, need those for frigate slaying. Make it so the Recons have enough DPS and tank for solo PvP. Falcon/Rapier could use another high slot with an extra turret to boot, and probably double the base EHP on them so they're tankier than AFs.

I don't hate your guts for what you think. When I first saw it, I thought it was an interesting, weird point of view. I wondered why you thought those things, and I've attacked what I saw as fallacies or flaws in your ideology.

That's why it is on the list, it's on the side that doesn't have drones. I'll edit my post to make that more clear :P

This also adresses some points you make later in your post.



It's not on my list. My list is the "______ vs ______" part of my post!
I put that up solely to point out that most Recons shouldn't be considered for the E-war benefits.



I put in the Arazu because it can use faction scram and dual damps to keep range from a single enemy and 250mm railguns will apply nearly full DPS to a respectable amount if you fit mag stabs (still has room for 2-slot shield tank or something). I'm not arguing that it's the most OP thing on the block, but it can work better than a Pilgrim in some cases for solo PvP, and I put that up on the drone bonused side, so I thought it was fair to put up the Arazu on the other.

You, Sir, are on the crack.

The awesomgeddon is awesome.


No changes required.

Both Black Ops and Recons saw tweaking in 2013, but weapons systems and drone damage stayed the same despite CCP acknowledging that the ships needed work. Meanwhile ships like the Domi, Ishtar, Sacrilege and several other ships had their raw or applied DPS adjusted during the same period. Keeping sets a trend just as easily as removing or adding. They could have reduced the reliance on drones even if it was as a stop-gap measure until a full rebalance, but chose to keep the amount of reliance that these ships have on drones. Expect this to continue through the full rebalance and remain an issue unless it is discussed.

I'll agree to your latest post... probably in its entirety. +1

My only thought along this line is that tech 2 heavies and sentries are expensive. If you have to abandon them, there goes 10 mil, at least, and you better hope you don't lose another set. If you're out doing sites, it may be a losing proposition if you are even a little unlucky. A ship designed to do the same things but that uses turrets wouldn't have that problem.

I know right, this is why I'm seriously considering lending my considerable English speaking talents to almost any country willing to pay for such services. I'm in dire need of getting away from this 10 days off per year nonsense.

Since my Armageddon doesn't use lasers so much anymore can I keep them on my Redeemer please? Even if I do have to admit the new Armageddon has grown on me.