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CCP - Please Remove SOV - (Structures & Timers) aka "Training Wheels"

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Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2014-07-22 18:37:53 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

In simple terms, I would expect increased interaction to be the primary result.

That's pretty funny...........I actually wrote that as my response, hit post, and the forum ate my response so I ended up typing more..Lol

Thanks for bumping and kicking the thread around today, its been fun!
.

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com
LiKuei
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#102 - 2014-07-22 22:21:07 UTC
+1 +1 +1 damn ....

Amazing that the players come up with real ways to make the game more interesting and CCP comes up with a major overhaul that kills it. For gods sake ... take this players suggestion to heart and do it in six weeks.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#103 - 2014-07-23 04:14:45 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Snot Shot wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
After this fix we'd have:
High sec: 1090
Low sec: 4111
Jove: 230
W-space: 2499

How is this going to make the game better?

What are you talking about?


Well sovless space is equally conquerable as lowsec systems which are not part of the FW space, hence one might as well save time and reclassify it as lowsec if sov is no more.

NPC null is already full of bads who cannot fight with anything else than maledictions, we'd just expand that to whole of nullsec.

I believe that you are assuming too much.

Yes, it is human nature to seek the path of least resistance, but you are ignoring that for the player type that wants to build on past efforts, sov null IS that easiest way to go.

To put it simply, the player types that are in NPC null will always be around, but so will the types who build and make sov null their home. If the rules surrounding sov null change, they will adapt to them.
They won't simply change play styles to match your example of low sec or NPC null play, or they would have already done this by now.

If they did not take this path already, I believe it assumes to much to think they will do so after this change.


Not too mention that this does not remove sov, but puts in place an alternative mechanic.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#104 - 2014-07-23 04:15:57 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
if stations are destructible and no force-fields .. then this idea could work .. system upgrades make no sense anyway really....
make things hackable and quickly destroyable would allow small groups of raiders too work well, steal, loot and destroy ..


Stations are NOT destructible in this suggestion, just the Alliance Capital Station.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#105 - 2014-07-23 04:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Snot Shot wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
After this fix we'd have:
High sec: 1090
Low sec: 4111
Jove: 230
W-space: 2499

How is this going to make the game better?

What are you talking about?


Well sovless space is equally conquerable as lowsec systems which are not part of the FW space, hence one might as well save time and reclassify it as lowsec if sov is no more.

NPC null is already full of bads who cannot fight with anything else than maledictions, we'd just expand that to whole of nullsec.



Except for, you know, players build the stations, and stuff.....


You don't understand much.


You didn't read the original post, did you? All player built outposts would be flipped to NPC stations.


Not necessarily, they'd become free ports. It wasn't clear if the alliance claiming the region could collect taxes, etc. They could not limit docking rights, but they might have some influence/control over these free ports. Basically, this could come about via the "embassy" function in the OP. Basically, if you set up an embassy in a free port you'd probably be able to extend some sort of diplomatic privileges to allies (i.e. reduced or no taxes, access to certain functions in the station, etc.).

This does NOT remove sov, it is a new sov mechanic when you get right down to it. Instead of having dozens of TCUs and IHUBs you have one big fat one. Whether this is good or not I don't know yet.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#106 - 2014-07-23 04:30:09 UTC
Snot Shot wrote:


• Alliances are no longer pinned under the weight of coalitions in order to “keep their space”………..they simply need to live in, and actively defend it for it to be theirs.


Why do you think this?

Why couldn't N3/PL and the CFC just run around and drop Alliance Capital Stations in their various regions, and then continue on their merry way?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
afkboss
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2014-07-23 04:49:27 UTC
If you want free docking rights and lawless space go to lowsec.

Nothing will stop coalitions from forming, its just a thing people do, they do it in the real world and they do it in EVE.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#108 - 2014-07-23 05:49:18 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Snot Shot wrote:


• Alliances are no longer pinned under the weight of coalitions in order to “keep their space”………..they simply need to live in, and actively defend it for it to be theirs.


Why do you think this?

Why couldn't N3/PL and the CFC just run around and drop Alliance Capital Stations in their various regions, and then continue on their merry way?

Probably we'd need an alt alliance for each Alliance Capital Station which would mean more work setting all the right blue standings...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#109 - 2014-07-23 06:03:21 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Snot Shot wrote:


• Alliances are no longer pinned under the weight of coalitions in order to “keep their space”………..they simply need to live in, and actively defend it for it to be theirs.


Why do you think this?

Why couldn't N3/PL and the CFC just run around and drop Alliance Capital Stations in their various regions, and then continue on their merry way?

Probably we'd need an alt alliance for each Alliance Capital Station which would mean more work setting all the right blue standings...


That is not that much work, and with the amounts of isk involved people will under take that work.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#110 - 2014-07-23 07:00:04 UTC
Yes, that was exactly what I meant.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#111 - 2014-07-23 13:30:31 UTC
In my opinion, by making the existing Outposts free ports, you remove a key piece of leverage that had making alliances so easy to defend. 'Easy' is strictly relative here, in the context presented of the current way things are as compared to after an idea such as this.

Currently we have alliances needing only a small fraction of their existing forces to man gate camps at key choke points, alongside a minimal network of observers to populate the intel channels.
This artificially duplicates historical situations where a small force could hold back a larger one, so long as they controlled the bottleneck that gave them the advantage.

Now, as in many ways fits more realistically for space, these bottlenecks will be the resource gathering points and Outposts themselves. Your enemy can resupply more conveniently, and therefore fight you on a more level playing field.

Would sov still be worth the trouble of getting?
I think it would be, since it would still have benefits.

But the game-stopping leverage that made alliances into entrenched space-holders, that is contrary to game play best interest in my view.

Remember, to take the space from one of these entrenched positions, you need far more than an equal force, or that advantage will stop you. You need an overwhelming blob.
I think this places the bar just a little too high for good gameplay.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2014-07-23 17:09:21 UTC
I like the idea of sovereignty allowing groups to officially lay claim to a part of the world, but in its current state it all boils down to a handful of massive alliances taking a bunch of systems they don't even use.

So this wouldn't be the worst way to resolve this problem. Massive alliances could still be massive and own a lot of space, they just have to be able to enforce that ownership. Even renting would still be possible, but it would require active effort to be a tenant. Ultimately, it means that people own what they fight for and defend, which sounds very EVE to me.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#113 - 2014-07-23 18:58:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
Snot Shot wrote:
I blogged this a year ago so I thought I would take a look at it a year later, make some tweaks to it, and vomit it back out onto the forums. 0.0 is supposed to be a sandbox, so why did CCP add SOV to it making it a slab of concrete?

CCP can you please get rid of SOV.

So let’s think about this for a few minutes. Null Sec with a clean SOV slate.…… No more grinding structures, ping ponging timers, alarm clocking, and any other horrendous nightmares you can think of from the last 10 years’ experience. You can change/impact the Null Sec landscape every time you log in and not be subjected to weeks of structures, timers, camps, and blobs… CCP wouldn’t be faced with trying to fix something that’s always been “broken”, to make something else that can be “gamed by the few” and gridlocked again like it is now. They can simply turned it off……..SOV all across 0.0 drops…..and the players take control over the new sandbox….

So what are some of the outcomes to doing this…………SOV goes away effectively turning Null Sec back into the “Lawless Space” it’s always been advertised as…………..Station and Out Post docking doors are flung wide open across all of Null Sec and 10 years of trapped assets are unlocked for thousands of current, and past, pilots to use again. Pilots are logging in by the thousands and Null Sec springs back to life.

• Alliances are no longer pinned under the weight of coalitions in order to “keep their space”………..they simply need to live in, and actively defend it for it to be theirs.

• Local and regional politics would develop with leaders/war lord’s etc. coming out of the wood works to govern with limited power to hold over players’ heads.

• Back room deals can be made by the lowest level grunt each day which could drastically impact what happens throughout a constellation or region……stronger relationships are born.

• Contracts mechanics are developed to support regional trade and local deals.

• Ninja living in Null Sec could be done by anyone who wanted to take the risk alone, in Corps, Alliances by choice while others hunted them.

• Grass roots market HUBs and industry in Null Sec would grow to amazing size and use all over null sec….Jita size HUBs policed by Mercs etc………. Mos Isley Space Station etc…

• And so many other opportunities for player driven content would come to life all around 0.0 as players were free to move where they wanted if they were willing to take the risk and develop the relationships..

So no SOV………all the stations and out posts are free ported……….now what? Where can I plant my Alliance flag? What will it be?........my thoughts a “Alliance Capital Station”……destructible……

Alliance Capital Station - Each Alliance can launch one “Capital Station” (Per Region?) which is destructible. Mechanics of how it’s destructible, timers, and what drops is something CCP/Players can toy with.

Thoughts/options that CCP can build on to make it “special”:

• “Capital Stations” allow for Super Carriers to dock
• Docking rights can be set in Capital Stations unlike the local free ported stations
• Super Carrier Construction Upgrade Slots to be added to the Capital Station
• Anchorable mods on the station, large guns, webs, etc. so gunners can use them and station can defend itself like a POS.
• Industry upgrades can be added, taxes collected, etc.
• It takes an Alliance to up keep it….they take fuel, food, dancers, janitors, cows, booze, drugs, etc to operate/maintain…or it goes off line..
• Walking in station upgrades, Licenses granted for such things as Casinos, bars, shops etc..only available at Alliance Capital Stations…the more come the more isk you make

Embassy’s – (Its already going on so why not make it official) An Alliance holding a Region with a Capital Station, can secure an “Embassy” in a Free-Ported station in each of the Constellations within the Region held. The benefits of such an Embassy can be decided as this mechanics are hammered out. Maybe some sort of benefits to anyone using the station for trade, industry, or whatever which in turn allows the Alliance to tax the goings on in that station etc.

So what about Jump Bridges, Cyno Gens, Jammers, CSAAs, and all the other SOV driven items? Without getting to f***ing complicated, I’m pretty sure most of you guys can figure out how to tie those back into the system without turning 0.0 into the same mess it’s in now.

Let’s face it, CCP is nowhere near figuring out how to “fix” current Null Sec “SOV” mechanics because there is no way to fix it…….shut it down, put in place mechanics that already exist (stations) and with a few tweaks we could be up and running with a new and fresh Null Sec which will thrive for years to come…

Anyways…….It’s an idea. Build off it or adjust as you think will work better but the simpler the idea more apt it’s going to get implemented by CCP quicker. The folks that keep coming up with these complicated and intricate ways to “fix” it just stagnate the process and to be honest, I think that’s why you do it so stfu. The above details, or some iteration of it, will give new players a chance to make it in this game and not simply be a puppet.

Anywhoo……….flame away and cry like babies about “already having NPC space” and silly crap like that. This is what needs to happen for EVE to survive….

Fly it like you stole it!!!
(RIP TN)


Snot. I've never been a fan of your topics. Having nothing better to do than watching Eve patch or reading the forums and finding this GEM, I'll say this:


Give each NPC empire their own indestructible Super Capital station in the low-sec regions across New Eden... and I'll support this topic like I wrote it.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#114 - 2014-07-23 19:30:12 UTC
Fully Support this Idea... tho I doubt CCP will ever pay it attention. They are Very happy in bed with SOV holders just look at how many Devs have come out of them.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#115 - 2014-07-23 22:27:22 UTC
It was always inevitable that the power would end up concentrated in the hands of a few, it was just never going to end any other way it's simple game theory. When all your assets are floating in space at the mercy of n+1 nobody wants to be 'n' everyone wants to be 'n+1' so blobs become coalitions of blobs, then coalitions of coalitions become power blocs and eventually the powerblocs became the blue doughnut.

If they want more players to leave empire space then they have to do something about the powerblocs, something other than making them even more powerful and giving them even more control... this might be a good start. getting rid of moon goo and other sources of passive income like botting would also be high on the list.
Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#116 - 2014-07-24 00:47:15 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
This does NOT remove sov, it is a new sov mechanic when you get right down to it. Instead of having dozens of TCUs and IHUBs you have one big fat one. Whether this is good or not I don't know yet.

Teckos - Thanks for the posts. And when you get right down to it the idea doesn't remove SOV, it removes what no one in this game has ever enjoyed about it. The down side to getting rid of all the HP, timers, and other ****, is that people who "own" space will need to actually use it, defend it, and this scares most current Null Sec players since they have never really had to do that.

This idea, or a form of it, would allow players new and dynamic game choices. There are hundreds of unused stations and systems all over Null Sec which I think we can all agree is pretty silly. They're being rented out because the players that want to use them can't kill the SOV structures. Let them take the chance to "Ninja" live in these unused locations if they want while PL tries to hot drop, hunt, or negotiate standings with them not to be like Mercs do.

If the Region has an Alliance Cap Station and they can negotiate special "bonus" standings with them that will allow upgrades to be anchored or they can simply ninja live without the standings if they don't want to be under the "thumb" of any Alliance and are willing to take the risk living there. Maybe the level of "bonus" standings do things like expand the docking radius of the Regions station and outposts to those with them adding a layer of protection.

You asked how Alliances would no longer be pinned under the weight of Coalitions in order to keep their space. Most Alliances fear losing their space simply because of the numbers, Super caps, and ridiculous amount of time and effort it takes to obtain space in Null Sec. Take that away and I bet many of them wouldn't put up with being the political hostages/puppets they currently are. If they want to commit and drop a Alliance Cap Station in a region then maybe they'd stick to a Coalition or simply risk it alone. Either way if they're strong enough they can simply stay in the region they're in now and farm/defend it as they normally do. If they can't, move to some where they can.

Many corps would probably decide to go nomadic and just negotiate the best deal with an Alliance that held Alliance Cap Station in region they want to reside in. That's my take on a few things that would shake out from this.

Yes, I think part of the equation would be that a Alliance can only drop 1 Alliance Cap Station. They need to pick the most strategic Region and system and commit to it. Obviously the current size of many Alliances would be too big for pilots to use just one Region so they would need to develop new "Alt" Alliances and CEOs to drop Alliance Cap Stations in more Regions and this would add stress to the power dynamic and diplomatic scene that EVE needs so much. New Alliance leaders could actually matter a little more than they do these days and when directors decide to press "the button" on a Alliance Cap Station it could be a little more interesting than just mopping up SOV structures with Super fleets. Anyways, this stacks the house of cards a lot higher which creates content.

Again, I realize the idea isn't perfect but tbh some of the other ideas floating around out there which takes 50 pages of proximity, indexes, cost modifiers, and "sov structure tenacity" discussions that make me want to ******* puke. WTF, I thought this was a video game people were supposed to enjoy and not need a special EVE alarm clock, ice for blue balls, and masters in statistics, in order to be a slave for $15/month......or more.

I could be completely wrong and missing something obvious but I think its a good start/idea? Got some pretty good feedback, and if anyone has some ideas how to tweak it to work better feel free to pipe up.

Just a side note though to those who don't know me. I'll be the first to say that there are not to many people in Null Sec that like me and probably less at CCP for having to deal with me on CAOD for the last 5 years. This thread could creep up to 500 likes and 200 pages and CCP wouldn't acknowledge it existed even if their game depended on it. You won't see Manny or any other well known Null Sec heroes comment in this thread because this idea can't be gamed as much as the ideas they're promoting so they wont lend it their name.

If you want to see a drastic change in Null Sec where it becomes the sandbox we've always been told it was, you're going to need to get behind a thread like this bumping it and promoting it aggressively to see any change which might turn Null Sec back into something worth the time and effort we all want to put back into this game.
.

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com
Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2014-07-24 13:18:11 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Give each NPC empire their own indestructible Super Capital station in the low-sec regions across New Eden... and I'll support this topic like I wrote it.

That could be interesting.......to see a cyno alt from every SC heavy Alliance in local waitng for a SC to bounce of station when they cyno in....Lol
.

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#118 - 2014-07-24 13:30:40 UTC
Snot Shot wrote:
...
You asked how Alliances would no longer be pinned under the weight of Coalitions in order to keep their space. Most Alliances fear losing their space simply because of the numbers, Super caps, and ridiculous amount of time and effort it takes to obtain space in Null Sec. Take that away and I bet many of them wouldn't put up with being the political hostages/puppets they currently are. If they want to commit and drop a Alliance Cap Station in a region then maybe they'd stick to a Coalition or simply risk it alone. Either way if they're strong enough they can simply stay in the region they're in now and farm/defend it as they normally do. If they can't, move to some where they can.

Many corps would probably decide to go nomadic and just negotiate the best deal with an Alliance that held Alliance Cap Station in region they want to reside in. That's my take on a few things that would shake out from this.

...

I see a dynamic emerging from this, where some alliances take in member corporations to keep them from raiding their space.

They would sue for peace, in different words, as the space holding alliance would be rid of marauders, and hopes that the marauding corp would see benefit with membership over raiding.
(Look, you can PvE here, or we can even help you raid these other guys, win / win...)

I believe this scales much more than the current system, especially for smaller groups who may have issues handling a gate camp before every attempt at play.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2014-07-24 14:31:36 UTC
I think one of the coolest things about the Alliance Capital Station is the fact that these could become historical strongholds of Alliances talked about for years to come. Just like the Game of Thrones castles these stations would be the Alliance brand, symbol, and heart to truly be proud of.

When you anchor it you have to name it and the name can never be changed unless the Alliance disbands and ownership drops with someone else taking control of it or destroying it.

Anyways, seeing a Castle Sphere or one called The Stables in the history books of EVE with the stories written about them would be pretty cool. Up keep and upgrades cost could provide as significant isk sink needed just like current sov bills do and the egg itself could cost so much that it might take a little while to actually see many of these out there in null sec.
.

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com
Heimdallofasgard
Ministry of Furious Retribution
Insidious.
#120 - 2014-07-24 15:02:16 UTC
Snot shot, always been a fan of your posting and this doesn't disappoint.

Null sec needs MAJOR changes of some kind to stop this current stagnation, if only to save the lives of those people who go and check the daily sov map and are continually bashing their heads against a desk because nothing relevant has happened for months.

The idea needs fleshing out but so far it's the best of an okay bunch, but anything, any changes at all right now would be beneficial for generating content in null sec.