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CCP - Please Remove SOV - (Structures & Timers) aka "Training Wheels"

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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#41 - 2014-06-21 06:55:08 UTC
Smugest Sniper wrote:

To tl;dr

Doesn't change really anything save the lack of actual possibility to control and protect where you live, disallows any real diplomatic agreements outside of what already exists, and doesn't really let any growth or development of where you choose to live.

All of this coupled with the fact that you can't really 'live' in null if someone will just hell camp you out of your outpost because they too can just dock up against right in your home.


Only partly true. It would certainly not change human's infinite capabilities of being simpleminded. However, even if you are camped into the station, you can still get away in nullified ships if you are prepared and have insta undocks. And even if you cannot properly live like the people in core 00 constellations (main areas of activity for bigger alliances), you at least have it easier to get a small foothold in 00, without the former permission of or submission to the big players. How well it goes for you from there, is up to the players, but you have at least a chance to do your own thing.

The statement about "disallows any real diplomatic agreements outside of what already exists, and doesn't really let any growth or development of where you choose to live" bases on the current mechanics, which is a little bit short sighted. If sov is removed and stations accessible for everyone, new mechanics to control access to stations/planets/moons would be introduced which suit the new situation.

Smugest Sniper wrote:
Dr Cedric wrote:

Activity = ownership, plain and simple



Bring Military and Indy to 5 you gain control of that system progressively more.


Have fun keeping that if you are not in the system(s) all the time. Without the current sov mechanic, you can only enforce your claimes in areas where you are actually present. Where nothing happens from your side, you don't "own" the space.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-06-21 07:21:23 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

The statement about "disallows any real diplomatic agreements outside of what already exists, and doesn't really let any growth or development of where you choose to live" bases on the current mechanics, which is a little bit short sighted. If sov is removed and stations accessible for everyone, new mechanics to control access to stations/planets/moons would be introduced which suit the new situation.


Assuming new mechanics to balance changes without explaining what those mechanics are is a weak argument for anything

"your argument is invalid because of these other things which are not explained but will exist and render your argument invalid"

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#43 - 2014-06-21 16:07:13 UTC
Snot Shot wrote:
I blogged this a year ago so I thought I would take a look at it a year later, make some tweaks to it, and vomit it back out onto the forums. 0.0 is supposed to be a sandbox, so why did CCP add SOV to it making it a slab of concrete?

CCP can you please get rid of SOV.

So let’s think about this for a few minutes. Null Sec with a clean SOV slate.…… No more grinding structures, ping ponging timers, alarm clocking, and any other horrendous nightmares you can think of from the last 10 years’ experience. You can change/impact the Null Sec landscape every time you log in and not be subjected to weeks of structures, timers, camps, and blobs… CCP wouldn’t be faced with trying to fix something that’s always been “broken”, to make something else that can be “gamed by the few” and gridlocked again like it is now. They can simply turned it off……..SOV all across 0.0 drops…..and the players take control over the new sandbox….

So what are some of the outcomes to doing this…………SOV goes away effectively turning Null Sec back into the “Lawless Space” it’s always been advertised as…………..Station and Out Post docking doors are flung wide open across all of Null Sec and 10 years of trapped assets are unlocked for thousands of current, and past, pilots to use again. Pilots are logging in by the thousands and Null Sec springs back to life.

• Alliances are no longer pinned under the weight of coalitions in order to “keep their space”………..they simply need to live in, and actively defend it for it to be theirs.

• Local and regional politics would develop with leaders/war lord’s etc. coming out of the wood works to govern with limited power to hold over players’ heads.

• Back room deals can be made by the lowest level grunt each day which could drastically impact what happens throughout a constellation or region……stronger relationships are born.

• Contracts mechanics are developed to support regional trade and local deals.

• Ninja living in Null Sec could be done by anyone who wanted to take the risk alone, in Corps, Alliances by choice while others hunted them.

• Grass roots market HUBs and industry in Null Sec would grow to amazing size and use all over null sec….Jita size HUBs policed by Mercs etc………. Mos Isley Space Station etc…

• And so many other opportunities for player driven content would come to life all around 0.0 as players were free to move where they wanted if they were willing to take the risk and develop the relationships..

So no SOV………all the stations and out posts are free ported……….now what? Where can I plant my Alliance flag? What will it be?........my thoughts a “Alliance Capital Station”……destructible……

Alliance Capital Station - Each Alliance can launch one “Capital Station” (Per Region?) which is destructible. Mechanics of how it’s destructible, timers, and what drops is something CCP/Players can toy with.

Thoughts/options that CCP can build on to make it “special”:

• “Capital Stations” allow for Super Carriers to dock
• Docking rights can be set in Capital Stations unlike the local free ported stations
• Super Carrier Construction Upgrade Slots to be added to the Capital Station
• Anchorable mods on the station, large guns, webs, etc. so gunners can use them and station can defend itself like a POS.
• Industry upgrades can be added, taxes collected, etc.
• It takes an Alliance to up keep it….they take fuel, food, dancers, janitors, cows, booze, drugs, etc to operate/maintain…or it goes off line..
• Walking in station upgrades, Licenses granted for such things as Casinos, bars, shops etc..only available at Alliance Capital Stations…the more come the more isk you make

Embassy’s – (Its already going on so why not make it official) An Alliance holding a Region with a Capital Station, can secure an “Embassy” in a Free-Ported station in each of the Constellations within the Region held. The benefits of such an Embassy can be decided as this mechanics are hammered out. Maybe some sort of benefits to anyone using the station for trade, industry, or whatever which in turn allows the Alliance to tax the goings on in that station etc.

So what about Jump Bridges, Cyno Gens, Jammers, CSAAs, and all the other SOV driven items? Without getting to f***ing complicated, I’m pretty sure most of you guys can figure out how to tie those back into the system without turning 0.0 into the same mess it’s in now.

Let’s face it, CCP is nowhere near figuring out how to “fix” current Null Sec “SOV” mechanics because there is no way to fix it…….shut it down, put in place mechanics that already exist (stations) and with a few tweaks we could be up and running with a new and fresh Null Sec which will thrive for years to come…

Anyways…….It’s an idea. Build off it or adjust as you think will work better but the simpler the idea more apt it’s going to get implemented by CCP quicker. The folks that keep coming up with these complicated and intricate ways to “fix” it just stagnate the process and to be honest, I think that’s why you do it so stfu. The above details, or some iteration of it, will give new players a chance to make it in this game and not simply be a puppet.

Anywhoo……….flame away and cry like babies about “already having NPC space” and silly crap like that. This is what needs to happen for EVE to survive….

Fly it like you stole it!!!
(RIP TN)


same

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Kaaeliaa
Tyrannos Sunset
#44 - 2014-06-21 17:24:38 UTC
OH NO! You mean people would have to defend their space instead of having battles only when they get bored of high-sec ganking on disposable alts, because of non-aggression pacts? The horror!

All snark aside, even if the idea has merit, it's not going to happen. The number of people it would **** off in the short term would probably outweigh the number of people who would be happy about it. It's not because of some vast conspiracy to protect the sov-holding coalitions at that point, just a bad business decision.

"Do not lift the veil. Do not show the door. Do not split the dream."
Legion40k
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#45 - 2014-06-21 18:10:42 UTC
Remove SOV, it's so freaking boring

DO IT
beatlebutt
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2014-06-21 18:35:43 UTC
I am a nullbear I guess. I mine and rat in null. I rent. My landlords defend me. But I don't think I am better then anyone else. In my mind its easier then high sec. High sec is crowded. Most systems have nuets in them. You never know one minute to the next if they are going to gank you. In null you rat and mine only when the system in clear. Because in null all nuets want to KILL YOU. IT's not ambiguous. Every time you jump a gate, you may die. Every time you undock it could be your last. In high you have to constantly guess..as you can never be nuet free. So if anything Nullbears are more carebears then high sec carebears are. Also we are lowest form of gutter trash according to the pvp's that control it. So no, we don't think we are special. No one trusts us, no one respects us. But hey, we don't care. We make isk. lots and lots of isk. Big smile So much so we happily pay the billions and billions you charge us.

I am okay with the changes. As long as there is a way to upgrade the systems to get the green mining and ratting anomalies. If there are no upgrades then null is just a big low sec. What makes null null is the sov upgrades.

And keep in mind CCP needs isk sinks to help combat inflation. So if they remove sov I would expect fee's some other way.

I think what the OP really wants is the open docking. Because lets face it, there will still be rentals. It will be a bit more work..but we have 3 major renters, CFC N3 and PL's BOTs With no sov they still have the manpower to control vast stretches of space. So they watch the map for activity or regularly send guys around to look for pos's. And instead of defending your sov I would expect them to defend your POS or IHUB or however they implement upgrades.

Me I would expect still pay rent. Rent is after all a protection racket. Its the mafia in space. Pay them or they blow you up.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#47 - 2014-06-21 21:11:24 UTC
+1

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Rumtin
Imperium Technologies
Sigma Grindset
#48 - 2014-06-22 08:57:14 UTC
There's soo many holes in this idea I don't even know where to begin.

Sov itself is not the problem, the problem with sov is the way the game mechanics work in order to maintain/own/control sov. Also, its entirely possible for null sec to become more popular and dangerous without forcing sov to drop. All null sec alliances have to do is see that opening up stations with docking fees and other station service fees CAN be just as profitable, if not even more profitable than renting so long as the people actually come to the space.

However, I doubt this will ever happen as renting space has become too mainstream and large alliances are simply too reliant on it to see any other form of income. As it was mentioned earlier though, not all space is rented. Provi alliances allow nuets to have access to their stations and its services for a fee, and throughout the years of them owning the space/stations, have made a tremendous amount of isk, and they don't rent. So it is possible for other incomes to provide alliances with the means to maintain themselves without major sov changes.

Further, if the null sec regions beyond those next to low/high sec are too devoid of populations to make this open access viable, then those regions can be rented for income. Its up to the Sov owners how they intend to rule their space, but this would serve to make null sec more popular with people, and still allow large alliances to have the necessary income to maintain themselves.
Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2014-06-22 12:38:17 UTC
Rumtin wrote:
There's soo many holes in this idea I don't even know where to begin.

Sov itself is not the problem, the problem with sov is the way the game mechanics work in order to maintain/own/control sov. Also, its entirely possible for null sec to become more popular and dangerous without forcing sov to drop. All null sec alliances have to do is see that opening up stations with docking fees and other station service fees CAN be just as profitable, if not even more profitable than renting so long as the people actually come to the space.

However, I doubt this will ever happen as renting space has become too mainstream and large alliances are simply too reliant on it to see any other form of income.

There's so many holes in my idea you decided not to point any out, but were willing to say it could all be solved by Alliances now free-porting and charging for it.....Roll....who in their right minds gonna put there stuff in stations where it can be trapped without even the warnings of a one week SOV timer..Ugh
.

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#50 - 2014-06-22 13:01:26 UTC
pretty cool idea, but i think if you have builded normal station you should be able to mantain it like now Roll

all docking rights etc, if not than setupin a station in system would be a mistake and every one would live in pos and use only the "capital statin"


guess pandemic and N3 would roam and burn every damn stations in eve ^^ Pirate
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2014-06-22 13:05:32 UTC
Black Canary Jnr
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2014-06-22 13:13:18 UTC
CCP just got their sov rebalance lol
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#53 - 2014-06-22 13:28:35 UTC
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:
guess pandemic and N3 would roam and burn every damn stations in eve ^^ Pirate


You would be on the forefront of this party. Until a couple of stations have died and both of you realize that this is not so good for 00 after all ... (maybe it even takes a couple hundred stations until the both of you come to that conclusion. Roll)

Would definitely be an interesting sight. The current loot piñatas are a mute buzz against this. Lol

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Rumtin
Imperium Technologies
Sigma Grindset
#54 - 2014-06-22 14:52:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Rumtin
Very well, I was hoping I would be able to get away without having to Post this wall of text, but I guess you do deserve a reason as to why I am so against your idea. Might have to make more than one post to cover everything.

P.S. This is what you asked for, so i'm not going to give you the pleasure of a TL;DR. P

Snot Shot wrote:

So let’s think about this for a few minutes. Null Sec with a clean SOV slate.…… No more grinding structures, ping ponging timers, alarm clocking, and any other horrendous nightmares you can think of from the last 10 years’ experience. You can change/impact the Null Sec landscape every time you log in and not be subjected to weeks of structures, timers, camps, and blobs…


So what exactly you're proposing here is basically that you want to get rid of all the infrastructure that makes holding sov what it is. Ok, lets read on.

Snot Shot wrote:

• Alliances are no longer pinned under the weight of coalitions in order to “keep their space”………..they simply need to live in, and actively defend it for it to be theirs.


Coalitions wont go away just because Sov drops or changes hands. There will always be alliances who are banned together in order to achieve goals. There was a post about removing the ability of null sec alliances to set standings in order to break up the Blue Doughnut, which would never happen, but even IF CCP did remove that, alliances would just simply reefer to 3rd-party websites for standings.

Snot Shot wrote:

• Local and regional politics would develop with leaders/war lord’s etc. coming out of the wood works to govern with limited power to hold over players’ heads.


What exactly would they hold over other players? They no longer own stations, sov, or have any say over who comes and who goes in the space. If i was living in Null sec NPC space, and someone tried to tax me, i'd tell them where to go shove it.

Snot Shot wrote:

• Back room deals can be made by the lowest level grunt each day which could drastically impact what happens throughout a constellation or region……stronger relationships are born.


Sorry to break this too you, but back room deals from grunts (of all people) don't impact s***, certainly not regions. Someone needs to be at the top of an organization with all the roles, titles, and access to have an effect on something like what was seen with Ursha-Kan, and that's someone i would hardly call a "grunt".

Snot Shot wrote:

• Contracts mechanics are developed to support regional trade and local deals.


This has hardly anything to do with Sov.

(Cont. in my next post.)
Rumtin
Imperium Technologies
Sigma Grindset
#55 - 2014-06-22 14:59:15 UTC
Snot Shot wrote:

• Ninja living in Null Sec could be done by anyone who wanted to take the risk alone, in Corps, Alliances by choice while others hunted them.


We already see this currently with NPC Null.

Snot Shot wrote:

• Grass roots market HUBs and industry in Null Sec would grow to amazing size and use all over null sec….Jita size HUBs policed by Mercs etc………. Mos Isley Space Station etc…


It's already been proven that Null sec Industry is broken, there's no point in it until it gets re-balanced. It's more effective to simply import from empire and export too empire then build in null.

Snot Shot wrote:

• And so many other opportunities for player driven content would come to life all around 0.0 as players were free to move where they wanted if they were willing to take the risk and develop the relationships..


They can do that even now. Even under NBSI rules, that doesn't stop pilots from roaming in space, it doesn't stop people from travelling there or talking to the Sov owners.

Snot Shot wrote:

So no SOV………all the stations and out posts are free ported……….now what? Where can I plant my Alliance flag? What will it be?........my thoughts a “Alliance Capital Station”……destructible……


*facepalm

Snot Shot wrote:

Alliance Capital Station - Each Alliance can launch one “Capital Station” (Per Region?) which is destructible. Mechanics of how it’s destructible, timers, and what drops is something CCP/Players can toy with.


This is exactly hypocritical of your own proposal. Remember, you wanted to get rid of timers in the first place, now your advocating there return??
Rumtin
Imperium Technologies
Sigma Grindset
#56 - 2014-06-22 15:11:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rumtin
Snot Shot wrote:

Thoughts/options that CCP can build on to make it “special”:

• “Capital Stations” allow for Super Carriers to dock
• Docking rights can be set in Capital Stations unlike the local free ported stations
• Super Carrier Construction Upgrade Slots to be added to the Capital Station
• Anchorable mods on the station, large guns, webs, etc. so gunners can use them and station can defend itself like a


Super caps allowed to dock, ok i'll go for that. However, docking rights that cant be set in the system right next door is only asking for a hostile fleet to come in with dreads,carriers of their own with supers staged in some PoS in that very same system and drop on your "Special" station to pop it. Why would anyone do this?? Super cap construction slots, ok ill go for that as well, and anchor-able guns on a station, might be a little overpowered and would mean that PoS's would serve almost no function, but w/e, i'll let that one slide.

Snot Shot wrote:

POS.
• Industry upgrades can be added, taxes collected, etc.
• It takes an Alliance to up keep it….they take fuel, food, dancers, janitors, cows, booze, drugs, etc to operate/maintain…or it goes off line..
• Walking in station upgrades, Licenses granted for such things as Casinos, bars, shops etc..only available at Alliance Capital Stations…the more come the more isk you make


What your proposing here is basically the SAME EXACT THING that we already have, it's called an IHUB, and it DOESN'T REQUIRE FUEL. CCP can't get Walking In Stations right, now you want them to try and implement the same failed mechanic in PoS's???

Snot Shot wrote:

Embassy’s – (Its already going on so why not make it official) An Alliance holding a Region with a Capital Station, can secure an “Embassy” in a Free-Ported station in each of the Constellations within the Region held. The benefits of such an Embassy can be decided as this mechanics are hammered out. Maybe some sort of benefits to anyone using the station for trade, industry, or whatever which in turn allows the Alliance to tax the goings on in that station etc.


Ok, so whats the difference here from them owning the station and charging for station services exactly?? I mean doing that means they already take money for people doing a lot of whats listed here anyways.

Snot Shot wrote:

So what about Jump Bridges, Cyno Gens, Jammers, CSAAs, and all the other SOV driven items? Without getting to f***ing complicated, I’m pretty sure most of you guys can figure out how to tie those back into the system without turning 0.0 into the same mess it’s in now.


Yeah, what about these things? Since they require Sov holders and strategic level 5 in order for many of them to be placed on a PoS, how would we get them since we can no longer hold sov?

What you're proposing here sounds all fine and dandy at first glance, but you have hardly addressed a lot of the issues that would be created by making these changes.Well there you have it, a whole list of why I disagree with your idea and why I think that in it's current form, it's rather s***.
Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2014-06-22 15:54:11 UTC
Rumtin wrote:
Very well, I was hoping I would be able to get away without having to Post this wall of text, but I guess you do deserve a reason as to why I am so against your idea. Might have to make more than one post to cover everything.

P.S. This is what you asked for, so i'm not going to give you the pleasure of a TL;DR. P

And here I was hoping you might have something important to contribute other than the usual "it won't work because I think it won't".....Roll Kinda like warning everyone you have an 18" **** only to whip out a 5" knob...Ugh

Coalitions won't go away but there will be less of a need for them plain and simple. "We need to stick together because of all the structure HP that you need to grind through to take SOV"...Cry welp, yah don't need to now.

"3rd-party websites for standings." That works well on the in game overview during engagements...Cool anyways, not my idea.

You're Alliance would still be living in the space it can control by its size and by living there charging for standings etc. Pretty simple and all the other "what ifs" get sorted out by people using their brains.

Hold over their heads is the ability to make isk and build in the space or it gets blown up. Scrap SOV required to put up a CSSA etc. No big deal you still need an Alliance to protect them.

Back room deals and grunts could still impact ****, you're just not creative.

Alliance leadership structures don't go away ffs...Roll

"We already see this currently with NPC Null." - Good, now you will see it all over EVE.

Industry is being balanced now and will continue to be. Doesn't mean we can't get rid of SOV now.

"They can do that even now. Even under NBSI rules, that doesn't stop pilots from roaming in space, it doesn't stop people from travelling there or talking to the Sov owners." Not sure you even live in 0.0 at this point. So they need to talk to CFC or PL/N3. Awesome......thanks for the tip...Lol

Alliance Cap Station with timers is fine. Same as a POS etc. Thousands of SOV structures isn't..........keep up there smart guy, you got no imagination.

"Super caps allowed to dock, ok i'll go for that. However..." what now you're going on again with your opinion about why "it won't work!"......and leaving out all the reasons why it could work.

To get the benefits of the ACS you will need an Alliance to maintain it.

I gotta go but I feel like I'm wasting my time chasing your butterflies etc. I will check back later to poke another one if its worth it.
.

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com
Rumtin
Imperium Technologies
Sigma Grindset
#58 - 2014-06-22 16:33:45 UTC
Ugh, sure dude.

You're clearly in denial that your idea is a joke and would only create more problems than what it solves, but whatever. I've said my peace and will leave you with this.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#59 - 2014-06-22 17:25:40 UTC
Well, new problems would make the 00 game at least a bit more interesting than the current stalemate with its bilgy frowst.

- Activity in systems gives you options like the current sov
- If you "own" the system, you can set docking rights on stations (solves every problem with station access in your space, but leaves lots of options for out-of-alliance stations for other people)
- If you "own" the system, you can set access rights to moons and planets (solves every POS/PI related issue and keeps lots of room for other out-of-your-alliance players to do stuff in other systems)

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Strot Harn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#60 - 2014-06-22 23:00:43 UTC
+1

Anything that increases chaos and entropy in Eve is a good thing.