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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Author
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#501 - 2014-06-19 07:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: KIller Wabbit
Don't remember Concord Summoning being declared an exploit by CCP. Anyone have the link to it being announced?

Pics or it didn't happen seems to apply here.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#502 - 2014-06-19 09:32:15 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Don't remember Concord Summoning being declared an exploit by CCP. Anyone have the link to it being announced?

Pics or it didn't happen seems to apply here.


The fact that a good many were banned for doing it tells us its true.

Anyone with half a brain can see how spawning an invincible npc fleet that will lock down and wipe out anything isn't an intended mechanic. Protection is provided by players, not npc fleets.
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#503 - 2014-06-19 11:21:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Don't remember Concord Summoning being declared an exploit by CCP. Anyone have the link to it being announced?

Pics or it didn't happen seems to apply here.


The fact that a good many were banned for doing it tells us its true.

If they didn't biomass the char which was used to summon CONCORD, they should have petitioned the ban because it was unjustified. Summoning CONCORD in itself is perfectly legal, no matter if the ganker does it or the miner. The only thing that is not allowed is biomassing the char with a negative security status to avoid the consequences.

Here is the official position of CCP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4572979#post4572979

I'd welcome if CCP would put this in a more visible place, as gankers love to spread the misinformation that it isn't allowed.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#504 - 2014-06-19 11:31:28 UTC
Sarah Flynt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Don't remember Concord Summoning being declared an exploit by CCP. Anyone have the link to it being announced?

Pics or it didn't happen seems to apply here.


The fact that a good many were banned for doing it tells us its true.

If they didn't biomass the char which was used to summon CONCORD, they should have petitioned the ban because it was unjustified. Summoning CONCORD in itself is perfectly legal, no matter if the ganker does it or the miner. The only thing that is not allowed is biomassing the char with a negative security status to avoid the consequences.

Here is the official position of CCP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4572979#post4572979

I'd welcome if CCP would put this in a more visible place, as gankers love to spread the misinformation that it isn't allowed.


At no point do either CCP or GMs say that summoning concord for protection is legal. Bot are simply stating that recycling alts to avoid sec loss is bannable.

summoning concord to protect you is abusing the game mechanics, if you want a fleet to protect you then you must get the players to do it, not an invincible npc fleet.
Morihei Akachi
Doomheim
#505 - 2014-06-19 11:36:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

summoning concord to protect you is abusing the game mechanics, if you want a fleet to protect you then you must get the players to do it, not an invincible npc fleet.

This makes no sense to me. The cost of summoning Concord is the same as the cost of ganking the freighter to begin with: a ship and some security status. How is the one an exploit and the other not?

"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and don’t belong in Eve Online. (And as for “scoped” …)

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#506 - 2014-06-19 11:42:09 UTC
Morihei Akachi wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

summoning concord to protect you is abusing the game mechanics, if you want a fleet to protect you then you must get the players to do it, not an invincible npc fleet.

This makes no sense to me. The cost of summoning Concord is the same as the cost of ganking the freighter to begin with: a ship and some security status. How is the one an exploit and the other not?


You can summon concord with an ibis, the ship is free so no, it is not the same cost.

The reason why it is an exploit is because concord make it impossible to kill the target when they are on grid and there is no way of getting rid of them. Concord is there to punish, not protect. Protection is the job of players, not god mode NPCs.
Lady Areola Fappington
#507 - 2014-06-19 11:47:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Areola Fappington
Morihei Akachi wrote:

This makes no sense to me. The cost of summoning Concord is the same as the cost of ganking the freighter to begin with: a ship and some security status. How is the one an exploit and the other not?



I'd say, because it's not Concord's job to protect your mining operation, it's their job to punish criminal activities.

CCP has come down pretty hard on the whole "Nudge and a wink just doing what the game lets me guv'nah" routine, in the past.

Distinct case comes to mind, back when you could use rsebos to get a negative scanres, and blap things from across the system. Sure, the code let you do it, but CCP turned around and said "Really guys, you should know better, enjoy your vacation".

Quote:
The reason why it is an exploit is because concord make it impossible to kill the target when they are on grid and there is no way of getting rid of them.


Well, you can move them, but yea, you can't gun them down. I do remember faintly back in the day, a ganker using f12 to ask about it, and a GM came in and despawned the concord.


I've used my ultimate CODE Dev Access (F12) to ask very specifically about it though, so hopefully we can get a straight answer.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#508 - 2014-06-19 11:49:13 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
I have a hard time reconciling that delaying response is ok, yet accelerating response is not ok.

I agree that accelerating is not right - but I also feel the delay is off base too. It really ought to be all or nothing. Since intention is impossible to accurately divine, it should simply be impossible to delay it and accelerating remains the bannable number it is now.


As to the topic - my personal view of suicide ganking is that they're a bit like sharks - you hear a lot about them, they have an awful reputation in many areas...but the reality is more people are dying in more interesting/stupid ways than they can ever get close to competing with. But still to many, somehow, they are still the boogyman.
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#509 - 2014-06-19 12:08:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sarah Flynt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Don't remember Concord Summoning being declared an exploit by CCP. Anyone have the link to it being announced?

Pics or it didn't happen seems to apply here.


The fact that a good many were banned for doing it tells us its true.

If they didn't biomass the char which was used to summon CONCORD, they should have petitioned the ban because it was unjustified. Summoning CONCORD in itself is perfectly legal, no matter if the ganker does it or the miner. The only thing that is not allowed is biomassing the char with a negative security status to avoid the consequences.

Here is the official position of CCP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4572979#post4572979

I'd welcome if CCP would put this in a more visible place, as gankers love to spread the misinformation that it isn't allowed.


At no point do either CCP or GMs say that summoning concord for protection is legal. Bot are simply stating that recycling alts to avoid sec loss is bannable.


Sigh. Then please read through the whole thread where these posts originate from. It's linked in the post that I linked to and deals exactly with this question: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=818978

CCP Atropos wrote:
Of course, if you're willing to live with these penalties, and don't delete the offending character, then there's no problem, since it is working as intended (you lose your ship, become criminally flagged, and incur a security hit). Although no one will really like you since you're spawning CONCORD to cover your own money making schemes


It doesn't get much clearer than that.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#510 - 2014-06-19 12:20:18 UTC
Quote:


It doesn't get much clearer than that.


Yet players were banned for doing it and we were told via GMs that spawning concord to protect yourself is not an intended use of concord. Concord is a punishment, not a merc group you call on to protect yourself from other players. Godmode npcs are not there to do the job of players.
Spectral Tiger
#511 - 2014-06-19 12:39:33 UTC
Noragli wrote:

The problem is that -10 characters or other low sec status characters can operate ships and attack people in high security space.




Never been a pirate in this game although have considered it. But if I was I'd go and live in CURSE.

So don't really know how the rep works for pirates. I would expect it to work in the same/similar way to how rep works between races.

I would expect pirates that have a terrible rep with CONCORD to be shot at by them.


From what you seem to be saying that doesn't happen.
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#512 - 2014-06-19 12:41:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


It doesn't get much clearer than that.


Yet players were banned for doing it and we were told via GMs that spawning concord to protect yourself is not an intended use of concord. Concord is a punishment, not a merc group you call on to protect yourself from other players. Godmode npcs are not there to do the job of players.

If they did biomass their CONCORD calling char afterwards without facing the consequences of the negative sec status, these bans were justified. If they didn't, they should have petitioned the ban as it was NOT justified.

I don't doubt what you're saying, but the word from Lead Game Master Grimmi carries much more weight than a ruling from a GM further down the foodchain.

Nonetheless I'd welcome an up-to-date official statement from CCP, that can be easily found and linked to, that once and for all puts an end to the rumour mongering.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#513 - 2014-06-19 12:41:23 UTC
Spectral Tiger wrote:
Noragli wrote:

The problem is that -10 characters or other low sec status characters can operate ships and attack people in high security space.



Never been a pirate in this game although have considered it. But if I was I'd go and live in CURSE.
So don't really know how the rep works for pirates. I would expect it to work in the same/similar way to how rep works between races.
I would expect pirates that have a terrible rep with CONCORD to be shot at by them.
From what you seem to be saying that doesn't happen.


CONCORD and Empire Police are not the same thing, just saying

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Lady Areola Fappington
#514 - 2014-06-19 12:42:54 UTC
Sarah Flynt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


It doesn't get much clearer than that.


Yet players were banned for doing it and we were told via GMs that spawning concord to protect yourself is not an intended use of concord. Concord is a punishment, not a merc group you call on to protect yourself from other players. Godmode npcs are not there to do the job of players.

If they did biomass their CONCORD calling char afterwards without facing the consequences of the negative sec status, these bans were justified. If they didn't, they should have petitioned the ban as it was NOT justified.

I don't doubt what you're saying, but the word from Lead Game Master Grimmi carries much more weight than a ruling from a GM further down the foodchain.

Nonetheless I'd welcome an up-to-date official statement from CCP, that can be easily found and linked to, that once and for all puts an end to the rumour mongering.



Working on it, I promise! Trust me, it's of interest to me too. I'd rather not get nailed with a "GM's discretion" ban for moving Concord around.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#515 - 2014-06-19 12:43:01 UTC
Sarah Flynt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


It doesn't get much clearer than that.


Yet players were banned for doing it and we were told via GMs that spawning concord to protect yourself is not an intended use of concord. Concord is a punishment, not a merc group you call on to protect yourself from other players. Godmode npcs are not there to do the job of players.

If they did biomass their CONCORD calling char afterwards without facing the consequences of the negative sec status, these bans were justified. If they didn't, they should have petitioned the ban as it was NOT justified.

I don't doubt what you're saying, but the word from Lead Game Master Grimmi carries much more weight than a ruling from a GM further down the foodchain.

Nonetheless I'd welcome an up-to-date official statement from CCP, that can be easily found and linked to, that once and for all puts an end to the rumour mongering.


So... its a legitimate tactic to bring a NPC corp alt in an ibis along with your freighter and a guy in a frigate in your corp, and every jump, kill the alt, summon concord and then jump, reship and repeat at each jump?

That just doesnt sound right to me

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Soylent Jade
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#516 - 2014-06-19 12:44:17 UTC
Spectral Tiger wrote:


Never been a pirate in this game although have considered it. But if I was I'd go and live in CURSE.

So don't really know how the rep works for pirates. I would expect it to work in the same/similar way to how rep works between races.

I would expect pirates that have a terrible rep with CONCORD to be shot at by them.


From what you seem to be saying that doesn't happen.


Concord doesn't kill us until we go criminal. FACTION POLICE chase us all over the place and will kill us if we stay on grid for more than 30(?) seconds. That's why we tend to stay docked, because jumping from celestial to celestial like a grasshopper on crack really isn't much fun.

Making hisec better...one Catalyst at a time

minerbumping.com

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#517 - 2014-06-19 12:46:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Spectral Tiger wrote:
I would expect pirates that have a terrible rep with CONCORD to be shot at by them.
From what you seem to be saying that doesn't happen.
That's because Concord punish, they do not protect. If you commit a crime in highsec Concord will punish you for it. One crime, one punishment. Until you commit another crime you are deemed to have served your "time".

Faction Police on the other hand will quite happily chase -10's all over the place, unlike Concord they can be fought, evaded and beaten, this is working as intended.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#518 - 2014-06-19 12:54:11 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Spectral Tiger wrote:
I would expect pirates that have a terrible rep with CONCORD to be shot at by them.
From what you seem to be saying that doesn't happen.
That's because Concord punish, they do not protect. If you commit a crime in highsec Concord will punish you for it. One crime, one punishment. Until you commit another crime you are deemed to have served your "time".

Faction Police on the other hand will quite happily chase -10's all over the place, unlike Concord they can be fought, evaded and beaten, this is working as intended.

I'll add , farmed to that aswell.
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#519 - 2014-06-19 12:55:33 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
So... its a legitimate tactic to bring a NPC corp alt in an ibis along with your freighter and a guy in a frigate in your corp, and every jump, kill the alt, summon concord and then jump, reship and repeat at each jump?

That just doesnt sound right to me

It is a legitimate tactic if you don't biomass that alt without getting his sec status up again. But it won't help you much as the one CONCORD spawn will only deal with one of the many gank ships. You'd have to bring more at once, depending on the size of the gank fleet.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#520 - 2014-06-19 12:59:42 UTC
Sarah Flynt wrote:

It is a legitimate tactic if you don't biomass that alt without getting his sec status up again. But it won't help you much as the one CONCORD spawn will only deal with one of the many gank ships. You'd have to bring more at once, depending on the size of the gank fleet.


" But it won't help you much as the one CONCORD spawn will only deal with one of the many gank ships. You'd have to bring more at once, depending on the size of the gank fleet." - Dont understand this, CONCORD hang around for a while or called elsewhere, and they attack anyone who ganks, not just one ship? Am I missing something here? Have I misunderstood you?

Also, New Order should add "Make sure you sacrifice a lamb at the mining site so CONCORD are there to help look after you" to the CODE?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann