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[Crius] Starbase feedback

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Author
Decarthado Aurgnet
Imperial Combat Engineers
Empire of Arcadia
#321 - 2014-07-10 22:20:22 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Cpt King wrote:
Whats the advantage because Pos or Station Producing / Reasearch for the Holders of the Station in 0.0? So the holders are not able to limit the usage or place some Tax for the Corp on the Reasearch / Production slots?


You will be able to tax industry jobs in player outposts, we just need to add the bit of UI for configuring the tax rate.



Apologies if this is answered already, I'm a page behind.

Will we have the ability to set the tax rate on job install costs at POS's as well? I'm not sure if that just applied to outposts or not.

Would REALLY like to have this


Tax rate at a POS makes no sense, since you can only install corporation jobs that get paid from the corporation wallet, you would only be taxing yourself.

Personal jobs at a POS may come with a POS rework in the future.


Apologies if I missed somebody else saying the same thing, but I couldn't let this go. Will continue reading the thread and see who else said what.

With all due respect, you couldn't be more wrong. Many corporations have a usage-based model for their members when it comes to POS jobs. Why else did you guys include a per-hour fee payable from one corp wallet to another in the first place under the pre-Crius system? Sure, it's annoying to have to move personal funds into a "pos job" wallet, but it works. To remove the ability for a corporation to pay for fuel by means of its members paying as they use the facilities will force CEOs to manually administer ranks based on who paid some guesstimated fee that month since nobody can predict how much each member will actually use.

Corporations NEED the ability to charge their members for usage of facilities regardless of whether it's an outpost or a POS.

Remove T2 BPO's or make them inventable at extreme cost.

Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#322 - 2014-07-10 22:26:41 UTC
Decarthado Aurgnet wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Cpt King wrote:
Whats the advantage because Pos or Station Producing / Reasearch for the Holders of the Station in 0.0? So the holders are not able to limit the usage or place some Tax for the Corp on the Reasearch / Production slots?


You will be able to tax industry jobs in player outposts, we just need to add the bit of UI for configuring the tax rate.



Apologies if this is answered already, I'm a page behind.

Will we have the ability to set the tax rate on job install costs at POS's as well? I'm not sure if that just applied to outposts or not.

Would REALLY like to have this


Tax rate at a POS makes no sense, since you can only install corporation jobs that get paid from the corporation wallet, you would only be taxing yourself.

Personal jobs at a POS may come with a POS rework in the future.


Apologies if I missed somebody else saying the same thing, but I couldn't let this go. Will continue reading the thread and see who else said what.

With all due respect, you couldn't be more wrong. Many corporations have a usage-based model for their members when it comes to POS jobs. Why else did you guys include a per-hour fee payable from one corp wallet to another in the first place under the pre-Crius system? Sure, it's annoying to have to move personal funds into a "pos job" wallet, but it works. To remove the ability for a corporation to pay for fuel by means of its members paying as they use the facilities will force CEOs to manually administer ranks based on who paid some guesstimated fee that month since nobody can predict how much each member will actually use.

Corporations NEED the ability to charge their members for usage of facilities regardless of whether it's an outpost or a POS.


It does work. Unfortunately CCP does not agree. See link below:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4566606#post4566606

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces
#323 - 2014-07-10 22:31:11 UTC
Zaxix wrote:
If I could ask one thing of the Devs in relation to the various avenues of feedback and announcements, it would be this:

For the love of God, could you please get all of the information into ONE place? I had to learn about the roll back of the stacking changes through TMC. You've got multiple threads up through the dev blogs, mutliple threads up in features and ideas, and, apparently, threads in the Test Server feedback. Can you please pull things together in such a way that players don't have to go to a bunch of different places to figure out what's going on? Maybe consider information streams that aren't categorized based on sub-forum layouts?

This isn't the first time I've learned about stuff through out of eve news sources because the information dissemination methods are so byzantine. It's very frustrating.

Thanks for listening.

If you're interested in major EVE news, I would recommend paying attention to the news section of the EVE Launcher, that area inhabiting the right-hand side of the whole display. All the links you need(ed) show up there. They post the stuff there so that we can learn about decision-things like this when it comes up.

Drones. Drones are a means to an end. An end to the ruthless Caldari 'progress' machines. An end to the barbaric 'redemption' proposed by the Amarr. What they see as chaos shall be my perfect order, merely beyond their comprehension.

Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces
#324 - 2014-07-10 22:43:25 UTC
Decarthado Aurgnet wrote:
Corporations NEED the ability to charge their members for usage of facilities regardless of whether it's an outpost or a POS.

Is it possible for me to highlight this more strongly? Shocked

Drones. Drones are a means to an end. An end to the ruthless Caldari 'progress' machines. An end to the barbaric 'redemption' proposed by the Amarr. What they see as chaos shall be my perfect order, merely beyond their comprehension.

Ian Stanley
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#325 - 2014-07-10 23:48:27 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

Update on multiple-structure bonuses for starbases.

We've just had another discussion about this system as-implemented, and based on your feedback, the technical challenges involved in implementing it in a fully user-friendly way, and the somewhat limited upsides of the feature, we've decided to cut it from Crius.

Having multiple starbase structures of the same type at a starbase will no longer grant you any bonus above those inherent in the structure itself

The only substantial downside to this is that it makes it much easier to weaponize an industry tower, so we are considering upping lab/array fitting costs substantially in a later release. We likely will not do this in Crius itself as people will need time to reconfigure their setups.

We are looking into what we can do to mitigate the expected glut of labs resulting from this change; more info as we work through this process :)

Thanks for all your feedback,
-Greyscale


for me i am happy on the removal of this features - it feel like a half measures for us to use large POS.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#326 - 2014-07-11 06:08:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
I honestly can't imagine too many people adding "sitting at a POS onlining/offlining crap before installing industry jobs" to their activity.


Then you are either naive or one of them. Have your pick.

This is not a question of too much effort, as the rewards here are way to high to ignore them because of some effort. It is a question of the when, not the if. And the When is answered with a very certain "shortly after the patch goes live and price and viability of production/science have been evaluated."

This is EVE, after all, where people exploit every single system and mechanic the game offers as soon as it reveals the opportunity.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Sigras
Conglomo
#327 - 2014-07-11 07:24:33 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Sigras wrote:
the ROI on POS modules does seem a bit poor...

its probably a bit out of scope now, but a while ago i posted a suggestion that allows corps to grow the number of arrays organically as they can now; it also fixes the online/offline problem...

Give all POS arrays a 10% reduction to job cost then make the job 1% more expensive per job in that array.

the obvious FOO strategy is one array per job of that type you want to run, but this runs into CPU issues and requires more shuffling around of materials, so you have tradeoffs.

the other idea i had was to give each type of array a "job cost reducer" module with a long-ish online time to prevent online/offline shenanigans

the added advantage to this approach is that you can make it cost appropriate so the ROI isnt insane and youre not messing with assembly array's online timers...

thoughts?

Encouraging to split up production into several arrays is a terrible idea. If you ever dealt with such production you would know.

As I mentioned in my original post ... which you apparently ignored ... It's a trade off similar to the "push/pull" for the industry landscape... the "push" making you want a different array for each job is lower costs and the "pull" making you want to consolidate all your jobs in one lab is the hassle of shuffling components around.
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
As stated before, I really doubt anyone would waste time with online/offline crap except capital producers in lowsec.

do we play the same game? this is the game where people will spend 6 months infiltrating an alliance in order to awox them.
This is the game where people spend years researching their battleship BPO to ME 350 to save 0.01%
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Unfortunately I cannot think of any good solutions to that problem atm but scrapping the entire thing because of that is.... unnerving.

not being able to think up a good solution is a fantastic reason to scrap the whole thing... I dont want a crappy mechanic put into the game because the devs cant think of something better ... thats how crappy mechanics happen... Id rather not have the mechanic that to have it be utter crap!
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#328 - 2014-07-11 07:26:33 UTC
Marsan wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
I know that the POS code is supposedly a mess, but please stop using that as an excuse to avoid fixing it. Everyone knows they're broken and simply reminding us of how broken they are instead of doing the work to fix them is highly unprofessional in my book. There's a lot of good gameplay to be had there if you just fixed them.


Fixing POS code is next on our list after industry, as per the EVE Keynote at Fanfest this year.


I thought it was corp management?


Really I would think that corp management needs to be fixed 1st as one of the major issues with POSes is corporate roles. You have to be a complete idiot to do industry in a POS that isn't a corporation of one beyond compression and refining. It's near impossible to give a member of a corp the ability to anything meaningful with a POS without opening the rest of the corp to major risk.


It should be obvious to anyone that Corporation/Alliance Roles & Permissions will need to be fixed at the same time, or maybe before, POSes are fixed.

I am so pleased to hear that the multiple array bonus scheme idea has been dropped. From all angles it was obviously a very bad method of attaining additional tax bonuses. Maybe it is time now to consider a skill-based alternative method now as I previously proposed ?

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Sigras
Conglomo
#329 - 2014-07-11 07:27:14 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Not make-or-break? Let's consider cons and pros of doing industry in a POS vs Station.

Station:
+Absolutely safety
+Ease of use
+High mobility (easy to pack up and move operation 1-10 jumps out for lower prices)
+Immune to wardecs (using alts or couriers for hauling)
-10% NPC tax on fees
-Having to pay office rent (although most POS owners use offices too)

POS:
+No 10% NPC tax on fees
+2% ME reduction (for manu only)
+0.5-0.75 time reduction on all activities.
-Fuel costs ranging from 100-500m.
-Significant increase in maintenance & operational logistics
-Inability to rely on alts/couriers for distribution.
-Major PITA to relocate to a different system with lower fees.
-Operations interrupted by wardecs (can't get to the POS to do industry)
-Significant increase in risk of losing billions worth of POS assets, materials and Blueprints (BPOs can be saved but BPCs in production & the rest are screwed).
-Hard to defend as the attacker chooses if, when and where to strike.
-Invitation for wardecs (Big static object screaming "We do industry here, come shoot at us!")

I see lots of risk but very little reward. And with this latest announcement, it's just disheartening.

The excuse that we can't work around online/offline shenanigans is just silly and another example of CCP punishing everyone because of some predicted bad behavior. I honestly can't imagine too many people adding "sitting at a POS onlining/offlining crap before installing industry jobs" to their activity. If there was a point in offlining labs/arrays, that means they need that PG/CPU for other stuff, like defenses, and that many batteries take hours to online . So yeah, I can maybe see it on months long production jobs like super caps & caps in LS, but otherwise it shouldn't be an issue at all.

And increasing the fitting requirements of labs/arrays is going to be another downside. POS are pretty soft targets as it is. Having to shut-down your entire production in order to ensure minimum safety for your POS every time you get a wardec is insane. You don't know whether they're after your POS or not, and by the time you find out it's too late to offline/online anything. The POS will be already in reinforced or the batteries will be shot down as you're onlining them.

I know CCP loves to troll us, but c'mon, have some decency and respect.

I feel like you dont really do a lot of industry...

A 25% reduction in manufacture time is a 33% increase in production. This means the same number of characters can produce 33% more stuff... assuming your profit margins are anywhere in the neighborhood of worth your time, you should make WAY more isk with a POS than without one.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#330 - 2014-07-11 07:53:17 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Not make-or-break? Let's consider cons and pros of doing industry in a POS vs Station.

Station:
+Absolutely safety
+Ease of use
+High mobility (easy to pack up and move operation 1-10 jumps out for lower prices)
+Immune to wardecs (using alts or couriers for hauling)
-10% NPC tax on fees
-Having to pay office rent (although most POS owners use offices too)

POS:
+No 10% NPC tax on fees
+2% ME reduction (for manu only)
+0.5-0.75 time reduction on all activities.
-Fuel costs ranging from 100-500m.
-Significant increase in maintenance & operational logistics
-Inability to rely on alts/couriers for distribution.
-Major PITA to relocate to a different system with lower fees.
-Operations interrupted by wardecs (can't get to the POS to do industry)
-Significant increase in risk of losing billions worth of POS assets, materials and Blueprints (BPOs can be saved but BPCs in production & the rest are screwed).
-Hard to defend as the attacker chooses if, when and where to strike.
-Invitation for wardecs (Big static object screaming "We do industry here, come shoot at us!")

I see lots of risk but very little reward. And with this latest announcement, it's just disheartening.

The excuse that we can't work around online/offline shenanigans is just silly and another example of CCP punishing everyone because of some predicted bad behavior. I honestly can't imagine too many people adding "sitting at a POS onlining/offlining crap before installing industry jobs" to their activity. If there was a point in offlining labs/arrays, that means they need that PG/CPU for other stuff, like defenses, and that many batteries take hours to online . So yeah, I can maybe see it on months long production jobs like super caps & caps in LS, but otherwise it shouldn't be an issue at all.

And increasing the fitting requirements of labs/arrays is going to be another downside. POS are pretty soft targets as it is. Having to shut-down your entire production in order to ensure minimum safety for your POS every time you get a wardec is insane. You don't know whether they're after your POS or not, and by the time you find out it's too late to offline/online anything. The POS will be already in reinforced or the batteries will be shot down as you're onlining them.

I know CCP loves to troll us, but c'mon, have some decency and respect.

I feel like you dont really do a lot of industry...

A 25% reduction in manufacture time is a 33% increase in production. This means the same number of characters can produce 33% more stuff... assuming your profit margins are anywhere in the neighborhood of worth your time, you should make WAY more isk with a POS than without one.


I really hate arguing on the forums for this exact reason. They always degenerate into fighting. If you must know, we have been doing industry since before your character was created. I've been testing the changes on SiSi for some time and overall, I am happy with them.

There are some major improvements as well as major hits to POS industrialists. The best part is that you will no longer need to do the PITA work of splitting production into different arrays. You're proposing they reward such PITA activity. No offense, but that's just stupid.

For our corp, from ISK/Hour perspective, yes, POS will still be profitable. But I'm talking about the bigger picture... copying instead of using BPOs, paying for fuel, the risks involved, maintenance, logistics etc. When you consider the extra work and risks you will realize that they leave something more to be desired. I'm not saying they're worthless, I'm just saying they seem to be lacking. Stacking bonuses added that extra reward for all your effort and risk.

You seem to be fixated on singular issues, try to take a bigger perspective of running and operating out of a POS. Consider all activities, cons/pros and how it will affect all POS users, not just the way you imagine doing it yourself.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#331 - 2014-07-11 07:54:53 UTC
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:

By that logic, CCP should introduce a mechanic where every hour one of the POS modules, chosen at random, in an online POS self-destructs and destroys itself and everything inside it. That would certainly "discourage" POS use.

Sounds great! Skynet.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#332 - 2014-07-11 08:39:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Seith Kali
CCP Greyscale wrote:

There's a substantial difference between "fixing POS" and "targeted buffs to POS industry viability". The former is measured in team-months, the latter is measured in developer-hours :)


You could increase the NPC station tax to 15%. That would be a relative buff to POS viability... personally I'd perfer if they weren't viable until you have a few 'team months' for reasons stated above. Cool Slap up empire fuel costs, you know you want to.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#333 - 2014-07-11 08:43:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Lorenzio
Sigras wrote:

As I mentioned in my original post ... which you apparently ignored ... It's a trade off similar to the "push/pull" for the industry landscape... the "push" making you want a different array for each job is lower costs and the "pull" making you want to consolidate all your jobs in one lab is the hassle of shuffling components around.

It's an arbitrary mechanic that rewards inefficiency.
Sigras wrote:

do we play the same game? this is the game where people will spend 6 months infiltrating an alliance in order to awox them.
This is the game where people spend years researching their battleship BPO to ME 350 to save 0.01%

Maybe.. I play the game where people consider all factors, effort, risk, rewards & costs.

Lets say you're manufacturing Apocs in Jita. (I know you can't put a POS in Jita but I'm using it because currently it has the highest fees on SiSi). Assuming you're using BPCs, you can install 10 runs at a time.
10 runs will cost you a little over 100m in manufacturing fees.
Now let's assume you got a POS up there with maximum stacking bonuses (21%). This will reduce your cost by 21m/job. So 10 jobs, you save 210m. For this you will need a Large Caldari POS with 7x Large Ship Assembly Arrays. Now after installing your jobs, you offline your 6 extra LSAs... and online your defences.
Here's an example (copy/paste as link seems to be break it)
http://eve.1019.net/pos/index.php?ct=03&mod=1L0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G0G&off=1L1L1L1L1L1L
This is not how you would typically fit your POS, but I used it as an extreme example which uses least amount of batteries needed to fill those PG/CPU slots. This process will take you over an hour.

Now 200m in an hour might seem very good, but remember that I used the worst case scenario. Highest fees, expensive hull, least amount of modules to online etc. In most cases, those will be labs or equipment/ammo/drone arrays. Fees on those are ridiculously low compared to this example. Usually people will build where the base cost index is much lower, thus the shenanigans save you a lot less. Also any decently armed POS will take 2-3 hours to arm all the batteries. Those 10 run jobs take about a day to complete so every day you will need to fly to the POS, offline/online/install jobs/offline/online.. every time. This seems insane to me.

Sigras wrote:

not being able to think up a good solution is a fantastic reason to scrap the whole thing... I dont want a crappy mechanic put into the game because the devs cant think of something better ... thats how crappy mechanics happen... Id rather not have the mechanic that to have it be utter crap!


I might actually agree with you on that one, but my point was that I personally haven't thought of any. Doesn't mean that others can't or it doesn't exist. In fact I thought of one while writing up this response to you.

Increase the time it takes to online labs/arrays, which would discourage their abuse. Eliminate the stacking bonus for capital, supercapital and possibly Advanced Large Ship Array.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Bitter Fremlin
Heimatar Enhanced Fleet Industries
#334 - 2014-07-11 09:24:27 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Given the risk involved, I don't see POS research as really viable anymore in any region where there are NPC station labs available. Sure, researching at a POS will likely save you ISK on install costs, as well as time, but is that savings worth the cost of keeping a POS fueled?

That, surely, depends on what lab install costs will be post-Crius. And that, in turn, depends on how many people jump in who don't use labs now (because of queues) or use labs instead of POSes in future (BPO security).

We won't know the cost difference, and hence POS viability, between busy NPC-facility systems and quiet, hi-sec, "bare" systems for at least a couple of months, which not only gives the Devs time to react to any trends they spot but also makes declaring research POSes extinct just a little premature.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#335 - 2014-07-11 11:45:21 UTC
One thing to bear in mind:

CCP isn't one monolithic development team.

They can work on more than one thing at once. (with differing delivery times)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#336 - 2014-07-11 12:10:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Allison A'vani
You do realize that removing this stacking bonus, coupled with the removal of remote copying, completely negates any reason at all to do any industry, other than super cap production, at a large/medium POS. The fuel cost is just not worth it. You are completely better off in 90% of circumstances to do all industry activities in stations now.

I had already planned on buying a large faction POS as having 2 x Capital Construction Arrays made the cost per hour worth it (coupled with the new component array).

goo.gl/cwJBPk

Now it is basically not worth it at all as 3% reduction on most cap BPOs is like 10m reduction in build cost if it even calculates to an entire capital part at all. 6% made it worth it as it almost always resulted in a 20m - 30m build cost reduction and I was going to put it in a low sec system with no station to not have any system competition. Now I will probably just use a small POS with 1 of the new faction arrays on it and nothing else. With this change you basically made large and medium POSes useless outside of their Super Building, moon mining, and Safes role.
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#337 - 2014-07-11 12:22:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Allison A'vani
Double Posted by accident
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#338 - 2014-07-11 12:42:37 UTC
Allison A'vani wrote:
With this change you basically made large and medium POSes useless outside of their Super Building, moon mining, and Safes role.


If you seriously want POS's worked on, this is a great thing. The less useful they are, the less people rely on their functionality, the less micropatches they need and therefore the less impediments of doing a major overhaul. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't be up for this.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#339 - 2014-07-11 14:16:29 UTC
Bitter Fremlin wrote:
That, surely, depends on what lab install costs will be post-Crius. And that, in turn, depends on how many people jump in who don't use labs now (because of queues) or use labs instead of POSes in future (BPO security).

We won't know the cost difference, and hence POS viability, between busy NPC-facility systems and quiet, hi-sec, "bare" systems for at least a couple of months, which not only gives the Devs time to react to any trends they spot but also makes declaring research POSes extinct just a little premature.


If the install costs for research jobs get to the same order of magnitude of the associated fuel costs for POS research, POSes will remain viable for at least lower-end BPs (due to the risk factor). I think everyone can agree to that.

Given the current state of the fuel market, and what testing I've done on SiSi, I severely doubt this will happen, and sincerely hope that it doesn't.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#340 - 2014-07-11 14:32:27 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
Allison A'vani wrote:
With this change you basically made large and medium POSes useless outside of their Super Building, moon mining, and Safes role.


If you seriously want POS's worked on, this is a great thing. The less useful they are, the less people rely on their functionality, the less micropatches they need and therefore the less impediments of doing a major overhaul. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't be up for this.


Because POS are always a hassle, regardless how you look at it. The reward (even a considerable one) does never offset the fact that you can lose it tenfold and worse in an instant, losing the put in effort in an instant. And that's true for the entirety of EVE (small and bigger alliances and blocks), considering that the defense of these towers requires immense amounts of logistical and financial effort.

I'd be surprised if that could be changed at all.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.