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[Crius] Little things from Team Super Friends

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Eva Peacemaker
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#41 - 2014-06-10 15:09:37 UTC
Thanks little lady, much apreciated changes for contractors
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#42 - 2014-06-10 15:12:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mizhir
Winter Archipelago wrote:
I usually laugh at the "my skill is different so now it's useless so give me a refund!" crowd, but in all honesty, there are several rig skills I've trained or am training beyond level 1 for the sole purpose of easily fitting T2's on my own. The drawbacks are meaningless for me on all but a very small select few, so being able to fit rigs without their skills and still get the full benefit would honestly make me push for a refund on rig skills. If a person wanted the reduced drawbacks, they can dump that SP back into the skills, but if, like me, a person only trained them for the fitting needs, and not to reduce drawbacks, we could actually do something useful with the SP.

I do like the changes, but, well, just slightly miffled about the rigs change.


Reducing drawbacks is far from useless. It's not like you have wasted training something that doesn't do anything.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#43 - 2014-06-10 15:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Erasmus Phoenix
The Jury Rigging skill reduces the drawbacks on a grand total of eight rigs. Ignoring tech levels, that goes down to four. Ignoring sizes, that's down to one.

Literally, one type of rig that is unlocked by jury rigging has a drawback. ONE.

So if this change goes through, the only things that jury rigging will EVER do is unlocking the other rigging skills at level 3, and reducing the shield recharge penalty on processor overclocking units. That's it..

Actually, I think you might be able to ignore everything above because looking again, I don't think that Jury Rigging even reduces that drawback. Therefore this change would make Jury Rigging IV 100% wasted SP. training it above IV would already be wasted.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#44 - 2014-06-10 15:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Winter Archipelago
Mizhir wrote:
Winter Archipelago wrote:
I usually laugh at the "my skill is different so now it's useless so give me a refund!" crowd, but in all honesty, there are several rig skills I've trained or am training beyond level 1 for the sole purpose of easily fitting T2's on my own. The drawbacks are meaningless for me on all but a very small select few, so being able to fit rigs without their skills and still get the full benefit would honestly make me push for a refund on rig skills. If a person wanted the reduced drawbacks, they can dump that SP back into the skills, but if, like me, a person only trained them for the fitting needs, and not to reduce drawbacks, we could actually do something useful with the SP.

I do like the changes, but, well, just slightly miffled about the rigs change.


Reducing drawbacks is far from useless. It's not like you have wasted training something that doesn't do anything.


I never said they were useless in general, only that the drawback reduces were useless to me on all but a very small select few. If we received a refund on the rig skills, there are definitely a few that I would put back in to III or IV, just to reduce the drawbacks. Others? Engineering and Scanning rigs, for example, have no drawbacks:

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ship_Modifications:Rigs:Engineering_Rigs
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ship_Modifications:Rigs:Scanning_Rigs

If we trained to IV for those to get T2 rigs, the skill is, very literally, useless; there are no drawbacks for it to reduce, and it was only needed to IV to enable T2 rigs. If you're able to fit rigs without any sort of barrier of entry, then the skills for these are no longer necessary.

The skills for these two, by the way, are the skills I'm most concerned with.

Edit :: Not to mention, the Jury Rigging skill simply allows access to additional rigging skills: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jury_Rigging

What's the real point of that if you can already fit the rigs? Jury Rigging's only purpose would be to allow access to other skills that would reduce drawbacks (except for Engineering and Scanning, that is). Having Jury Rigging is really the equivalent of having, for example, a skill called "Cruisers" whose only purpose is to enable you to train the four racial cruisers (Jury Rigging, by the way, has been a bit of a contention to me since the very beginning, but I've been willing to shrug that off until, well, now, when rigging skills are basically being made largely redundant on their own, let alone a skill that allows access to those skills and little else). End Edit

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Bridgette d'Iberville
Better Killing Through Chemistry
#45 - 2014-06-10 15:41:41 UTC
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
TL:DR; Remove being able to fit rigs from this, leave it as it is. They are already fundamentally different from modules and should be thought of separately.

Not empty quoting, the entirety of the post is solid, IMO.

"I considered a career in griefing, but then realized that I would never achieve the level of tear generation that CCP manages to do each and every expansion."
Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#46 - 2014-06-10 15:56:07 UTC
Bridgette d'Iberville wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
TL:DR; Remove being able to fit rigs from this, leave it as it is. They are already fundamentally different from modules and should be thought of separately.

Not empty quoting, the entirety of the post is solid, IMO.

Also not empty quoting
Melana Emmagan
Holloway Heavy Industries
#47 - 2014-06-10 16:12:46 UTC
Bridgette d'Iberville wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
TL:DR; Remove being able to fit rigs from this, leave it as it is. They are already fundamentally different from modules and should be thought of separately.

Not empty quoting, the entirety of the post is solid, IMO.


Alternative: Rework how skills work with rigs, give them a % bonus per skill level like normal modules or something like that. I think the entire "have somebody else plug them in and they work" thing is kinda silly. It also makes the skills only useful if you want to reduce the drawbacks.

Suggestion:

Remove the drawback reduction from the rig skills.
Add 4 new skills: Small, Medium, Large and Capital Ship Rigging. Those are now responsible for the drawback reduction on all rigs of their size, so "Small Ship Rigging" will reduce drawbacks on all small rigs, "Medium Ship Rigging" on all medium rigs and so on.

Reduce rig effectiveness by 25%, with the skill required for the rig giving 5% per skill level.
You need the rig skill on I to insert and operate the rig so you'll operate the rig at 80% effectiveness at rig skill I.
You need rig skill IV to insert and operate a T2 rig (maybe drop that down to III?) at 95% effectiveness. (75% base + 20% from rig skill IV)
If you don't have the skill required, the rig will not do anything, like an offlined module.
If you want your rigs to be 100% effective, skill it to V.

These changes would bring the rig skills more in line with the module skills, and give more incentive to actually skill them apart from "just" a drawback reduction. At the same time, drawbacks would remain as those are what gives rigs their special "flavour" of being a semi-permanent ship modification.

Thoughts?
Adri Kinsan
Dejobaan Mechatronic Industries
#48 - 2014-06-10 16:14:53 UTC
Are we able to do mass fittings?

Instead of needing to jump into a ship, and click the fit button from the fittings list I'd LOVE the ability to click about 50 ships and just select "fit to all" from the fittings window.

Would make things like Faction Warfare and making fitted ships for corp a lot easier (unless it's already a thing, in which case how do I do it?)
SpaceSaft
Almost Dangerous
Wolves Amongst Strangers
#49 - 2014-06-10 16:26:30 UTC
I love that you are doing this. Give us more "little" things that revolutionize how we can play!
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Wildly Inappropriate.
#50 - 2014-06-10 16:31:17 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Mangala Solaris wrote:
Love them both.

Especially the second one. Being in RvB and doing events with lots of ships involved just makes that one a must have.


yay! that feature was mostly made for those wonderful people that add so much fun to the game for a lot of other players <3


going further on this, any chance of adding spare modules to ship fits in cargo? Some of our fleet fits require spare modules in cargohold so we can swap them at a moments notice. They are a pain to fill in
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#51 - 2014-06-10 16:34:50 UTC
Please put the "Center camera" checkbox back in the d-scan window. Pretty please Roll

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
kiu Nakamura
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#52 - 2014-06-10 16:37:38 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Hi,
CoolFit modules without the required skillCool


Not so little, but wouldn't it be awesome for massfitters if this would be a jobtype you can install at a station? Provide a sample fitted ship, throw in hulls and modules and retrieve the fitted ships after some time.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2014-06-10 16:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Arronicus
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Agrakari Saraki wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Elly Artrald wrote:

Is this also true for rigs?


You can also fit rigs


Hang on - doesn't that entirely negate the minimum required skill level for rigs?


you could already have someone else fit rigs on your ships for you and then fly it



For those of us who make isk providing this service, this is definitely unwelcome. The other features, particularly the no fleetwarp flagging are nice however.

Please consider adding some skill required to use rigs then, since as is, brand new players will be able to use tech 2 rigs with no skills trained, a large inconsistency with all other tech 2 equipment.
Eli Porter
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2014-06-10 17:09:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Porter
Good stuff!

But can we also get a warning for undocking with offline modules we do have the skills to online? Or online them automatically?
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#55 - 2014-06-10 17:23:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Erasmus Phoenix
Melana Emmagan wrote:
Bridgette d'Iberville wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
TL:DR; Remove being able to fit rigs from this, leave it as it is. They are already fundamentally different from modules and should be thought of separately.

Not empty quoting, the entirety of the post is solid, IMO.


Alternative: Rework how skills work with rigs, give them a % bonus per skill level like normal modules or something like that. I think the entire "have somebody else plug them in and they work" thing is kinda silly. It also makes the skills only useful if you want to reduce the drawbacks.

Suggestion:

Remove the drawback reduction from the rig skills.
Add 4 new skills: Small, Medium, Large and Capital Ship Rigging. Those are now responsible for the drawback reduction on all rigs of their size, so "Small Ship Rigging" will reduce drawbacks on all small rigs, "Medium Ship Rigging" on all medium rigs and so on.

Reduce rig effectiveness by 25%, with the skill required for the rig giving 5% per skill level.
You need the rig skill on I to insert and operate the rig so you'll operate the rig at 80% effectiveness at rig skill I.
You need rig skill IV to insert and operate a T2 rig (maybe drop that down to III?) at 95% effectiveness. (75% base + 20% from rig skill IV)
If you don't have the skill required, the rig will not do anything, like an offlined module.
If you want your rigs to be 100% effective, skill it to V.

These changes would bring the rig skills more in line with the module skills, and give more incentive to actually skill them apart from "just" a drawback reduction. At the same time, drawbacks would remain as those are what gives rigs their special "flavour" of being a semi-permanent ship modification.

Thoughts?


I kiiiiind of think this is a better idea than what they are proposing, but I don't necessarily like it. Rigs are meant to be a permanent and fixed change to a hull, regardless of the skills of the pilot who is sitting in that hull, and I actually kind of like them in that role - you always know exactly what a rig will do, unlike with subsystems, modules or the hull itself. I'd say that's what gives rigs their unique 'flavour' rather than just not being able to remove them.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#56 - 2014-06-10 17:53:03 UTC
I like the skill, but as far as rigs are concerned that leaves us with the following options.

1: Simply not let the fitting ability apply to rigs, only modules.
2: Rework the drawback system for rigs to make them all inclusive, make those skills desirable.
3: Add a new mechanic, perhaps a step where the rigs can be fitting but to be brought "on line" would require those skills.
While this last one is probably the most work, it could open up some opportunities, such as the ability to "off line" rigs instead of destroy them. You wouldn't be able to take them off and put on new ones, but you could deactivate the ones that you did have mounted if you needed to for certain things.
Probably too much work for fringe cases though.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2014-06-10 17:59:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Masao Kurata
Franky Saken wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:


you could already have someone else fit rigs on your ships for you and then fly it

Yes, but now most people dont need to train it to iv at all anymore, there's only a very small subset of fits that actually need the lvl iv or higher to make them fit (due to drawbacks).

Are you going to be removing the requirements from the rig modules as well as they are now irrelevant aside from affecting the drawbacks.


Reducing drawbacks is actually really important for many rigs, the skills just become slightly lower priority than they were.

On this note, how about going further? Let us sit in ships we don't have the spaceship command skills for, but only in dock so we can fit the ship or remove modules.

The Jury Rigging skill itself needs looking at though, as stated the rigs it unlocks don't... actually have drawbacks. Perhaps just nuke the skill and let people train all the specific rigging skills without any prereqs.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#58 - 2014-06-10 18:02:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
First, brilliant changes. I love them. Keep up the great work!

I think the you can fit any rig change makes sense. Already you can use any rig even if you can't fit it. Most of the skills aren't worthless if the change goes through. Most T2 rigs still have pretty brutal drawbacks if your skills aren't up. Although CCP might need to take a look at Jury Rigging IIRC very few of the Jury Rigging rigs have drawbacks. Perhaps remove the skill, refund the SP, and just let those rigs be used without any skills/regroup those rigs with drawbacks?

Edit: I am still hoping CCP can figure out some way for us to mass fit ships. Try fitting several hundred frigates one by one and not want to pull your hair out after a while.
Grookshank
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-06-10 18:21:54 UTC
Melana Emmagan wrote:
Bridgette d'Iberville wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
TL:DR; Remove being able to fit rigs from this, leave it as it is. They are already fundamentally different from modules and should be thought of separately.

Not empty quoting, the entirety of the post is solid, IMO.


Alternative: Rework how skills work with rigs, give them a % bonus per skill level like normal modules or something like that. I think the entire "have somebody else plug them in and they work" thing is kinda silly. It also makes the skills only useful if you want to reduce the drawbacks.

Suggestion:

Remove the drawback reduction from the rig skills.
Add 4 new skills: Small, Medium, Large and Capital Ship Rigging. Those are now responsible for the drawback reduction on all rigs of their size, so "Small Ship Rigging" will reduce drawbacks on all small rigs, "Medium Ship Rigging" on all medium rigs and so on.

Reduce rig effectiveness by 25%, with the skill required for the rig giving 5% per skill level.
You need the rig skill on I to insert and operate the rig so you'll operate the rig at 80% effectiveness at rig skill I.
You need rig skill IV to insert and operate a T2 rig (maybe drop that down to III?) at 95% effectiveness. (75% base + 20% from rig skill IV)
If you don't have the skill required, the rig will not do anything, like an offlined module.
If you want your rigs to be 100% effective, skill it to V.

These changes would bring the rig skills more in line with the module skills, and give more incentive to actually skill them apart from "just" a drawback reduction. At the same time, drawbacks would remain as those are what gives rigs their special "flavour" of being a semi-permanent ship modification.

Thoughts?

Horrible. I will lead to people wo perfect skill not being able to use their ships anymore. Anything that increases the entry barrier even more is a very bad idea.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#60 - 2014-06-10 18:24:37 UTC
Really, you just need to not touch rigs at all. They already have the skills as a check for fitting, not use, so if you remove the check from fitting you completely break the way rigs work...