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[news] Federal Government announces handover of Arcurio
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Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-06-11 20:38:04 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Or perhaps nothing more than a trading agreement and mutual defence treaty? The State isn't exactly famous for it's expansionist policies, Andreus. We're also not famous for bullying allies to change their ways to match our own, or we might have had a few things to say on the subject of Slavery.

I didn't say "the State," Pieter, I said "the Provists." It's well established that anyone who supports Heth does not and cannot support the State. Provists are traitors. Supporters of Heth are traitors. I wasn't accusing anyone you care about of hypocricy.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-06-11 21:21:24 UTC
Indira Harashani wrote:

I am no lover of the Federation, but the initial invasion of Luminaire back in YC 110 was a criminal act perpetrated on the back of another cowardly and criminal act - the Elder Fleet's attack on the headquarters of CONCORD. Yes, it is your homeworld, but it was located within Federation territory. It was still located in Federation territory even after the invasion, even if it can be reasonably claimed that the planet itself was a de facto island of State sovereignty. (A state that it appears to be peacefully shifting towards right now, without bloodshed or violence - a good thing.)

Invasion of Luminaire back in YC110 wasn't a criminal act.
It was a declaration of war. Indeed, the treaty has been violated, just like Federals violated treaty that they give us our planet back, when they started the operation. But unlike them, our operation was targeted at liberation of our planet from gallentean occupation.
We were at war with Federation already when this "operation" happened, and they simply violated rules of the war we have agreed with. This fact itself was obnoxious.
But I don't call them criminals for just violating a treaty they signed just 5 years ago.
I call them criminals for intention and methods they did it.
While we needed just our property and legacy back, and to secure lives and our culture from gallentean unprovoked agression against us all over Caldari Prime, gallenteans in their attack were only trying to kill Caldari citizens and destroy our property.

Indira Harashani wrote:

Operation Highlander was, in a way, the Federation's emulation of the Empress' glorious return to Her people. An invading foe was met on the battlefield with overwhelming force, and purged from their sovereign space with wrath and fury that splintered hulls like trees snapping in the wind.

Such comparison is simply laughable.
The Empress never gave the world of Mekhios to tribals. She never sanctioned their presence there.
She didn't come to just kill peoples on the planet. She came to actually save her peoples there, just like Tibus Heth did in YC110.

Indira Harashani wrote:

But the State's claim to Caldari Prime still does not make Operation Highlander a criminal act. Luminaire itself, as a system always remained under Federation sovereignty after the events of YC 110, which gives them the right to move materiel in and out of the system whenever and wherever they want. This includes the movement of a significant number of capital ships into the system, and the decision to place them in an engagement with State forces left over from the invasion five years prior.

And how about moving armed troops inside Caldari Prime and starting fights all over the cities? Was it their "right" as well?
Or attacking our ships on orbit of our planet?.. It doesn't sound just like simply "moving".

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2014-06-11 21:52:06 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Or perhaps nothing more than a trading agreement and mutual defence treaty? The State isn't exactly famous for it's expansionist policies, Andreus. We're also not famous for bullying allies to change their ways to match our own, or we might have had a few things to say on the subject of Slavery.

I didn't say "the State," Pieter, I said "the Provists." It's well established that anyone who supports Heth does not and cannot support the State. Provists are traitors. Supporters of Heth are traitors. I wasn't accusing anyone you care about of hypocricy.


Excellent. Some people DO forget that the Provists have all been swept from power in the State and are a wholly discredited organisatoin.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#44 - 2014-06-11 21:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Indira Harashani wrote:

Operation Highlander was, in a way, the Federation's emulation of the Empress' glorious return to Her people. An invading foe was met on the battlefield with overwhelming force, and purged from their sovereign space with wrath and fury that splintered hulls like trees snapping in the wind.


Only if the Empress had burned the Elder Fleet by making a pyre of her own ships would the comparison be at all apt. In truth the space around Caldari Prime was held only by the dead at the end of that day.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#45 - 2014-06-11 22:24:15 UTC
Jumping Heth on a Tricycle, there's space zombies orbiting Ca...?! No wait... wait...
... no, this batch won't do at all. Excuse me while I fire a pharmacist.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2014-06-11 22:25:01 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
In truth the space around Caldari Prime was held only by the dead at the end of that day.

And by all those other ships the Federation had in Luminaire that the Caldari didn't.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#47 - 2014-06-11 22:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
In truth the space around Caldari Prime was held only by the dead at the end of that day.

And by all those other ships the Federation had in Luminaire that the Caldari didn't.


I don't count ships that are too afraid to undock, Msr Verrisai. Capsuleers had orbit to ourselves, once the last of those Moros tucked their tails and fled into warp. The few last ones that could, who only escaped because Concord decided to cover their retreat.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2014-06-11 22:49:08 UTC
I mean, why would they stay? The battle was over and they won with no possibility of the Caldari coming back.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2014-06-11 22:50:47 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
I mean, why would they stay? The battle was over and they won with no possibility of the Caldari coming back.


Well, I know I'm more detail oriented than the average FN Commodore, but I might have stayed to see if any of the hundreds of thousands of casualties could be recovered from the burning wrecks of my fleetmates.

I'm funny like that.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2014-06-11 23:24:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Bryen Verrisai
That's not a function Moros are typically equipped for, especially not when under fire from some overzealous capsuleers who are trying to wash down the bitter taste of defeat with some spite-kills. A carrier, maybe, considering those have on occasion been fit for the purpose of retrieving and housing battlefield casualties, but not a dreadnought.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#51 - 2014-06-12 00:01:44 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
That's not a function Moros are typically equipped for, especially not when under fire from some overzealous capsuleers who are trying to wash down the bitter taste of defeat with some spite-kills. A carrier, maybe, considering those have on occasion been fit for the purpose of retrieving and housing battlefield casualties, but not a dreadnought.


Well the carriers went down a good hour before the last dreadnaught quit the field. I'd quit trying to dress a pyrrhic victory up as something glorious, if I were you. The only one who won any honour that day was Admiral Yanala.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2014-06-12 00:43:52 UTC
Costly victory, maybe. I don't think it was particularly pyrrhic, though; there wasn't much of a dispute as to whom controlled the planet and would continue to control it when all was said and done.

I suppose this isn't really the place to debate the finer points of it though. Likewise, your thinly-veiled bloodlust over the battle is rather gauche.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2014-06-12 01:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Costly victory, maybe. I don't think it was particularly pyrrhic, though; there wasn't much of a dispute as to whom controlled the planet and would continue to control it when all was said and done.

I suppose this isn't really the place to debate the finer points of it though. Likewise, your thinly-veiled bloodlust over the battle is rather gauche.


It wasn't a phyrric victory, it's a tenuous victory. The Provist-led conquest of Caldari Prime was a textbook blitzkrieg and far as I can see it, Caldari losses are well within acceptable parameters. Acceptable parameters means the losses they suffered doesn't stop them from occupying the planet for the next six years by the time they actually took it.

However, Caldari Prime still remained deep within Gallente space, and if it weren't for the Shigeru sitting in orbit with her doomsday pointed at the segregated Gallentean community centers, the State would had lost orbital control a long time ago and it would be only a matter of attrition before the Gallente Federation retake Caldari Prime. The State's grip over the planet is tenuous at best.

Also, what does that victory accomplish, in practical terms? I never quite figure that one out. Did the State actually gained anything other than a homeworld deep within hostile lines that day?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#54 - 2014-06-12 02:36:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Costly victory, maybe. I don't think it was particularly pyrrhic, though; there wasn't much of a dispute as to whom controlled the planet and would continue to control it when all was said and done.

I suppose this isn't really the place to debate the finer points of it though. Likewise, your thinly-veiled bloodlust over the battle is rather gauche.


Oh, I'm sorry. Was it veiled? Let me be clear, on that day and in that place, if I could have climbed out of pod and drunk Gallente blood I wouldn't have thought it too much.

Hopefully I'm a little more balanced now. To be fair, I'm the one who called it a tragedy. You're the one who felt the need to assert victory.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2014-06-12 03:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Post removed

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#56 - 2014-06-12 03:29:09 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
That's not a function Moros are typically equipped for, especially not when under fire from some overzealous capsuleers who are trying to wash down the bitter taste of defeat with some spite-kills. A carrier, maybe, considering those have on occasion been fit for the purpose of retrieving and housing battlefield casualties, but not a dreadnought.


Well the carriers went down a good hour before the last dreadnaught quit the field. I'd quit trying to dress a pyrrhic victory up as something glorious, if I were you. The only one who won any honour that day was Admiral Yanala.

Not just dreads, gallentean nyx warped away during the battle while recieving heavy damage.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Kyllsa Siikanen
Tuonelan Virta
#57 - 2014-06-12 13:22:03 UTC
A battle is a strategic and a tactical concern simultaneously, and success at the one does not mean success at the other.

“Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.” 

― C.S. Lewis 
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#58 - 2014-06-12 14:07:13 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Oh, I'm sorry. Was it veiled? Let me be clear, on that day and in that place, if I could have climbed out of pod and drunk Gallente blood I wouldn't have thought it too much.

Hopefully I'm a little more balanced now. To be fair, I'm the one who called it a tragedy. You're the one who felt the need to assert victory.


I'd rather think about how balanced one can be in the middle of a CF like this. But I fear you won't convince this youngling about his interpretation of what happened there, even if you'd whip up a fetching set of slides filled with little words and lots of illustrations.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#59 - 2014-06-12 15:49:18 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
I'd rather think about how balanced one can be in the middle of a CF like this. But I fear you won't convince this youngling about his interpretation of what happened there, even if you'd whip up a fetching set of slides filled with little words and lots of illustrations.


I'd be prouder of myself if I'd been balanced during the battle itself. As it was I think I was bellowing at several points. The techs reported smeared fist marks on the inside of my pod.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#60 - 2014-06-12 18:05:11 UTC
You'll get there, eventually.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.