Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Some people are making up numbers carelessly.
My word goes to ones who say "+5 is needless, +3 is adequate"
Did you guys ever put some effort to look at how much time actually it penaltize you when you downgrade from +5 to +3's?
Difference between +5's and +3's is that it trains half a month less per 6 month, and a whole month less in 1 year for optimized plans.
For players like me around ~70 mil. SP and for my optimized skill queue, it is 94 skills trained (29 unique skills to level 4). Triple or even quadrupple that number for a new player.
Pointless argument... I am positive with OP. These implants should be internally added to everyone and all of them should be totally removed from the game.

Edit: Why should numbers be added instead of removed? Because you would penaltize people who trained without them, while there were people training with them. This is only valid if implants were removed and numbers weren't added internally.

SP is the name of the advancement for this game. Without it, everything else is pointless. So every single bit of less training time is a big deal. You start to underestimate the power of training time, you start to widen the gap. Time is money my friend. If you don't care about that deal, it is your choice to do so.

My main idea and argument is that implants that doesn't actively contribute to fights and modifies the most powerful thing in this game are pointless. Once in the past, the very same argument was brought up once more and the final result was the removal of some learning skills from the game. Training time should be the same for all, risk vs reward part should be shifted from SP speed to some useful combat attribute.

Not everyone of course, but mostly new pvp'ers or ones shifting from pve to pvp have fear of loosing some of their SP speed and yes, even this is one of the many sources of discouragement, nonethless it is better starting cutting those discouragement parts one by one.

"Choice and risk" part. This is where these implants are creating an adverse effect actually.
- OP says he stays in station. Even he logs off, he uses +5's passively without any risk involved. No risk, +5 training.
- A player in null, actively participating in warfare is the most opposite side of the story. He won't purhcase +5's because he is being podded every other day. He is playing with much greater risk, so he gets +0 ones.

See the pattern? These implants are simply breaking risk vs reward rule. They're working reverse.

Think reverse, if everyone would be able to train 2700 sp/hr equally, what would that do bad to Eve? What is so bad about this? I see more advantages than adverse effects, if any.

How often do you PvP in null sec? Are you familiar with warp disruption fields (a.k.a. "bubbles")? Bubbles are an area of effect mechanic used by interdictors and heavy interdictors which prevent everyone (except for Interceptors) from warping while inside the bubble. These bubbles are an integral part of PvP in null sec, and as such are used heavily.

If your ship is killed inside a bubble (which happens very often in null sec) your pod is also in that bubble and you can't warp off. As such, whenever you PvP in null sec you have to operate under the assumption that if your ship explodes your pod is pretty much gone too. It doesn't always happen that way, but it's a logical going-in assumption of risk that you must take into account.

So whenever there is a "cheap frigate gang", or some other fun PvP activity that would otherwise be an opportunity to have fun at low risk, the option isn't really that appealing for someone who either has to risk implants that cost 10-20x the price of the ship they're flying or lose skill point gain in order to jump to a clean clone.

I agree with you in that, PvP in low or high sec is a different story altogether. However, the way PvP works in null sec drives the implant mechanic in a different way.

On top of that, there are also bombs in nullsec (weapons which apply a fairly significant amount of damage indiscriminately to a spherical area). As such, if a bombing run is executed properly, it is quite possible to lose your ship and your pod nearly instantaneously. This, in combination with warp disruption fields (a.k.a. "bubbles") significantly increases the likelihood that your pod (and implants) are not likely to survive.

As such, risk vs. reward is completely reversed. Learning implants work effectively whether the player is docked or undocked. If you remain docked (and take no risk) you are rewarded equally. If you undock, you can only lose SP/isk and have no incentive to fly cheap ships, because any inherent "cheapness" is lost when accounting for the destruction of implants.

Neither are you, NPC alt.

But as far as "bubbles!", if you're going to take a fight in null, then nothing stops you from jumping into a clean clone. It's routine to do so, in fact.

Unfortunately as I'm my own "alt" (aka SOLO, single account player *sigh*!) I lost my pod iirc 3 times to bubbles in NullSec and in WHs. Actually I was able to escape luckily in the gap between two bubbles once. But the required clone jumps are exactly the point, if I would like to do NullSec stuff every day I'm penalized with much slower skill progression.

Stop exaggerating.

The difference between +4s and +5s, or even +3s and +5s, is miniscule unless you have a year long or more training plan. And even then the difference is pretty well laughable. So it's not "much slower" anything.

And Genolutions cost pocket change, by the way.

And you aren't using a jump clone whilst PvPing in Null? Who's fault is losing implants then? There are mechanisms available to avoid losing expensive implant sets and they should be used as such. New pilots need to be taught about these mechanisms so they can make *informed* decisions. If you are out in null I'd be surprised if you weren't earning enough to easily afford to lose even +4's on a fairly regular basis. If you can't afford them you should consider whether null is the right place for you to be flying until you can afford them.

And no I don't PvP in null. When I did go to null previously guess what? I used a cheap jump clone and expected to die. I wasn't disappointed in any sense.

I did read your posts and you are not penalized on training rate compared to others even if you choose to PvP every day. You have a choice as to what level of risk and cost of any implant (training or otherwise) that you are willing to fly with. You train at the exact same rate as anyone else before implants and can choose which if any implants you want to fly with. There is a choice to be made and a risk/reward balance to make in your own mind.

I stand by the point that the l;earning implants really don't speed up training by such a degree that they need to be removed.

Reading between the lines the OP is suggesting that because he doesn't want to risk a more expensive item then it should be removed and the maximum benefit given to everyone. He would like all the rewards of +5's but without the risk as this will speed up training. Increased straining speed has been discussed many times and is generally unwanted in all cases so far. I am also dead against removing a risk choice and applying the reqard even if it is to everyone.

Yeah, and the guy sitting in high sec with +5's is just having LOADS of fun isn't he?

I wonder if he'll be the first one to roll the ship spin counter back over to 0....

Isk, SP, time, plex, we all invest something into the game to get what we want out of it.

I'll leave it, because the numbers both before and after are a bit funny and make quite a few assumptions on how players choose to train their characters.

What hurts me is you're pulling choices from the game for no discernible reason other than you feel someone has an advantage over someone else because they chose to waste their time by not playing the game. You're proposing a blanket change that affects all players to fix something that is only a theoretical problem for some of them.

If you're avoiding fights because you're currently stuck in a +5 when you prefer to PvP in a clean clone, that's the price you chose to pay for the extra SP.

If you're losing SP because you're in a clean clone so that you can have fun shooting faces, that's the price you chose to pay for the extra fun.

Or.... Just grab some cheapo +3's and get the best of both worlds. Better yet, check the market. I've noticed that a lot of the mid-grade pirate implants that give +3 to attributes along with combat bonuses can be as little as half as much as the standard +3's.

Full set of mid-grade talismans, plus the Omega, for 35-40 mil to fly my neut boat with and +3 to all attributes? Yes please.