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Ice still moving to null?
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David Grogan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2011-11-18 12:32:02 UTC
Assagai Invari wrote:
Andski wrote:
i hope not, we want high-sec ice to stay there forever


Quite right, because at least it gives the Goons something to do and forces miners to be aware rather than AFK mining.


nah it more to do with the fact that in 0.0 you have intel channels to warn you if goons are coming... in high sec its alot harder to spot goons coming because you have to constantly scroll up n down through the list of 100+ mining bots in the local list to see if a goon is somewhere in there.

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#22 - 2011-11-18 12:35:31 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
I doubt CCP would move all Ice to null, unless they also put ice in wormhole exploration sites. WHs are very dependent on ice products being widley available all over high sec. If ice were only in null, then ice would likely end up with much fewer distribution points on the markets, the major trade hubs.

Not only is that not good for the WH life style, it reduces the market dynamics of the game, reduces game play options, makes Eve more bland. Personaly I am too lazy to bother with it, but I know a number of people that ship ice products to regions far and wide. They can make a profit doing this because ice products are all over the place, there is enough varinace in distribution and potential transaction cost to make it worth while.

If the sources were only in null, then the majority of the transaction cost would be consumed in getting it to the major trade hubs and there would be little left for the high sec transportation trade players - their incentive to redistribute would be much reduced.


To your point, I'd like to point out that people would still ship ice they'd just be at the major trade hubs and far more expensive. As is, most people who use isotopes, heavy water, and sodium chlorides already buy from the major trade hubs in bulk and ship it tot heir home, whether that be 1 jump from highsec, or deep in sov territory.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#23 - 2011-11-18 13:00:28 UTC
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
I doubt CCP would move all Ice to null, unless they also put ice in wormhole exploration sites. WHs are very dependent on ice products being widley available all over high sec. If ice were only in null, then ice would likely end up with much fewer distribution points on the markets, the major trade hubs.

Not only is that not good for the WH life style, it reduces the market dynamics of the game, reduces game play options, makes Eve more bland. Personaly I am too lazy to bother with it, but I know a number of people that ship ice products to regions far and wide. They can make a profit doing this because ice products are all over the place, there is enough varinace in distribution and potential transaction cost to make it worth while.

If the sources were only in null, then the majority of the transaction cost would be consumed in getting it to the major trade hubs and there would be little left for the high sec transportation trade players - their incentive to redistribute would be much reduced.


To your point, I'd like to point out that people would still ship ice they'd just be at the major trade hubs and far more expensive. As is, most people who use isotopes, heavy water, and sodium chlorides already buy from the major trade hubs in bulk and ship it tot heir home, whether that be 1 jump from highsec, or deep in sov territory.


It's not as simple as you think. High sec ice miners won't go to null or even low to mine ice... if that's what they wanted to do they'd already be there. As such, the market would dry up considerably, making it prohibitively expensive to maintain a pos. Smaller high sec and wormhole corps wouldn't be able to afford their pos anymore, and as a restult all that research being done, all that T3 production, would grind to a halt causing secondary market effects, like Tengus skyrocketing in price. On top of the incoming PI nerfs (PCOs and the impending spike in PI products) and pos fuel changes there would be too much chaos for the markets to properly absorb.

It would, simply put, break Eve.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#24 - 2011-11-18 13:39:06 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
I doubt CCP would move all Ice to null, unless they also put ice in wormhole exploration sites. WHs are very dependent on ice products being widley available all over high sec. If ice were only in null, then ice would likely end up with much fewer distribution points on the markets, the major trade hubs.

Not only is that not good for the WH life style, it reduces the market dynamics of the game, reduces game play options, makes Eve more bland. Personaly I am too lazy to bother with it, but I know a number of people that ship ice products to regions far and wide. They can make a profit doing this because ice products are all over the place, there is enough varinace in distribution and potential transaction cost to make it worth while.

If the sources were only in null, then the majority of the transaction cost would be consumed in getting it to the major trade hubs and there would be little left for the high sec transportation trade players - their incentive to redistribute would be much reduced.


To your point, I'd like to point out that people would still ship ice they'd just be at the major trade hubs and far more expensive. As is, most people who use isotopes, heavy water, and sodium chlorides already buy from the major trade hubs in bulk and ship it tot heir home, whether that be 1 jump from highsec, or deep in sov territory.


It's not as simple as you think. High sec ice miners won't go to null or even low to mine ice... if that's what they wanted to do they'd already be there. As such, the market would dry up considerably, making it prohibitively expensive to maintain a pos. Smaller high sec and wormhole corps wouldn't be able to afford their pos anymore, and as a restult all that research being done, all that T3 production, would grind to a halt causing secondary market effects, like Tengus skyrocketing in price. On top of the incoming PI nerfs (PCOs and the impending spike in PI products) and pos fuel changes there would be too much chaos for the markets to properly absorb.

It would, simply put, break Eve.


Well yes but you're also forgetting that it'd help smaller alliances break into null. I mean imagine that oxygen isotopes, for example, reached 5,000 ipu.An erebus need 1,000 isotopes to make 1 jump without skills. 750 to make it with max fuel skills. So it'd, for example, cost 37.5 million isk to move the titan once. Which means alliances aren't going to deploy 33 titans (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZDME4zZdMQ&feature=related) into an engagement over a -0.3 systems without good moon stuff. As it is now, big alliances will go over to a 1 system corp/alliance just because they can (Example TEST on Chirbba).
As CCP Soundwave said, Ice is like oil. And alliances would have to consider the systems they want to deploy caps/super caps over more.

As for highsec research, frankly I think highsec should be such a ***** to live in. If they want to research a BP, they have to use the station queues or they have to move to low sec. Also, I'd like to point out the fact that Eve existed as a game long before there were jump drives.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#25 - 2011-11-18 13:54:54 UTC
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
Well yes but you're also forgetting that it'd help smaller alliances break into null. I mean imagine that oxygen isotopes, for example, reached 5,000 ipu.An erebus need 1,000 isotopes to make 1 jump without skills. 750 to make it with max fuel skills. So it'd, for example, cost 37.5 million isk to move the titan once. Which means alliances aren't going to deploy 33 titans (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZDME4zZdMQ&feature=related) into an engagement over a -0.3 systems without good moon stuff. As it is now, big alliances will go over to a 1 system corp/alliance just because they can (Example TEST on Chirbba).
As CCP Soundwave said, Ice is like oil. And alliances would have to consider the systems they want to deploy caps/super caps over more.

As for highsec research, frankly I think highsec should be such a ***** to live in. If they want to research a BP, they have to use the station queues or they have to move to low sec. Also, I'd like to point out the fact that Eve existed as a game long before there were jump drives.


No it wouldn't. Smaller alliances would still be targets... and the ice fields would tell everyone where those juicy, carebear targets are. How many supercap hotdrops on the macks would it take, do you think, before they say "screw this" and head back to high? People aren't there for a reason, and that reason isn't the lack of things to do to make isk.

Your opinion, by the way, on high sec is irrelevant when you consider the numbers of paying subscribers in high sec that disagree with you. You break high sec, you break Eve, and people leave. This is bad for the game as a whole.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#26 - 2011-11-18 14:17:41 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
Well yes but you're also forgetting that it'd help smaller alliances break into null. I mean imagine that oxygen isotopes, for example, reached 5,000 ipu.An erebus need 1,000 isotopes to make 1 jump without skills. 750 to make it with max fuel skills. So it'd, for example, cost 37.5 million isk to move the titan once. Which means alliances aren't going to deploy 33 titans (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZDME4zZdMQ&feature=related) into an engagement over a -0.3 systems without good moon stuff. As it is now, big alliances will go over to a 1 system corp/alliance just because they can (Example TEST on Chirbba).
As CCP Soundwave said, Ice is like oil. And alliances would have to consider the systems they want to deploy caps/super caps over more.

As for highsec research, frankly I think highsec should be such a ***** to live in. If they want to research a BP, they have to use the station queues or they have to move to low sec. Also, I'd like to point out the fact that Eve existed as a game long before there were jump drives.


No it wouldn't. Smaller alliances would still be targets... and the ice fields would tell everyone where those juicy, carebear targets are. How many supercap hotdrops on the macks would it take, do you think, before they say "screw this" and head back to high? People aren't there for a reason, and that reason isn't the lack of things to do to make isk.

Your opinion, by the way, on high sec is irrelevant when you consider the numbers of paying subscribers in high sec that disagree with you. You break high sec, you break Eve, and people leave. This is bad for the game as a whole.


Well of course they'd tell where they are. Ice fields would be great ways to start attacking bigger alliances. They'd need to figure out ways to defend them. It'd be great. If they're bots, then they're really not going to care. In 00, you buy a ship already expecting to loose it.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#27 - 2011-11-18 14:20:55 UTC
They should put ice in W-space with outposts and moon goo. Then we can forget about null sec completely, big waste of space, good dumping ground for some types of players. P

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#28 - 2011-11-18 15:52:34 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
They should put ice in W-space with outposts and moon goo. Then we can forget about null sec completely, big waste of space, good dumping ground for some types of players. P



TBH i'm not sure there are belts in worm space as I am not a resident of worm space. But I mean I don't see how that could be too far fetched to put ice in worm space, as it is a 00 system.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2011-11-18 15:57:31 UTC
David Grogan wrote:
Assagai Invari wrote:
Andski wrote:
i hope not, we want high-sec ice to stay there forever


Quite right, because at least it gives the Goons something to do and forces miners to be aware rather than AFK mining.


nah it more to do with the fact that in 0.0 you have intel channels to warn you if goons are coming... in high sec its alot harder to spot goons coming because you have to constantly scroll up n down through the list of 100+ mining bots in the local list to see if a goon is somewhere in there.

let me let you in on a secret

is there blue ice on your overview?

then the goons are coming

presto problem solved

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#30 - 2011-11-18 16:02:32 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
David Grogan wrote:
Assagai Invari wrote:
Andski wrote:
i hope not, we want high-sec ice to stay there forever


Quite right, because at least it gives the Goons something to do and forces miners to be aware rather than AFK mining.


nah it more to do with the fact that in 0.0 you have intel channels to warn you if goons are coming... in high sec its alot harder to spot goons coming because you have to constantly scroll up n down through the list of 100+ mining bots in the local list to see if a goon is somewhere in there.

let me let you in on a secret

is there blue ice on your overview?

then the goons are coming

presto problem solved



Isn't the whole reason behind this the belief that blue ice is moving to goon/test space and they want to set the prices?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2011-11-18 16:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
the whole reason is that jita is going to be ******* bare of gallente isotopes soon :sun:

also we got to do some hella insider trading but really just shutting down every gallente pos in EVE without shooting a single structure is a masterpiece worthy of doing this alone

we do not mine

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2011-11-18 16:12:00 UTC
like seriously think it through: I could mine for a month straight, or I could buy billions worth of oxygen isotopes before we murder every mack in gallente space and sell now that the price has tripled, making way more money and letting me spend the money dropping brutixes on everything

what one sounds like more fun to you

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#33 - 2011-11-18 16:13:58 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
the whole reason is that jita is going to be ******* bare of gallente isotopes soon :sun:

also we got to do some hella insider trading but really just shutting down every gallente pos in EVE without shooting a single structure is a masterpiece worthy of doing this alone

we do not mine


ha ha ha. Wouldn't have anything to do with Gallente caps being the most deployed cap would it? Out of curiosity, what about you? As you stated you don't mine. So how ya going to keep you stuff online?
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#34 - 2011-11-18 16:15:00 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
like seriously think it through: I could mine for a month straight, or I could buy billions worth of oxygen isotopes before we murder every mack in gallente space and sell now that the price has tripled, making way more money and letting me spend the money dropping brutixes on everything

what one sounds like more fun to you


I recommend you do what ever makes you happy
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2011-11-18 16:16:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
for some reason goonswarm decided to buy a metric fuckton of oxygen isotopes before goonswarm began interdicting all gallente ice (and also we use every tower but gallente) so i think we'll be ok

wonderful coincidence, that

gallente caps being the most deployed did factor into the target select yes (and rorquals)

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
IIIAsharakIII
The League of Extraordinary Assholes
Leviathan.
#36 - 2011-11-18 16:18:35 UTC
Personally I think this is a great idea, moving ice to low sec and 0.0

It really might make the game better.

Here's my theory:


Highsec space can be reduced of materials on the basis of scarcity. For whatever reason, the 4 big empires of the eve universe have decided to reduce pod pilot access to their most secure resources. In conjunction with this, new ore and ice belts would have to be created for low sec and 0.0, with a initial bonus of materials in low, followed by a massive bonus of materials in 0.0.

This is not just some NERF to highsec and leaving the rest as is. Every piece of materials removed from high sec should be put back into low sec and 0.0. This means:
-More ice belts, LOTS MORE. Enough so that people can stake various claims and war over the profits, not the resource.
-Ice exploration: Comets anyone?
-New Asteroid Belt system: How about some real asteroid fields huh? Like say, fifteen thousand kilometers across. Just big enough for both the predator and the prey to hunt and evade in a more realistic environment.

This would allow all kinds of corporations to stake their claims all along the sandbox. High sec can still be a home for starter corps and beginning players, and mission runners (since the profession is rather singular), and high sec POSes too. But, in order for a player to really get the satisfaction from industry and production, they'll have to integrate into the sandbox and work with various other professionals in their respective fields to accomplish their goals.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#37 - 2011-11-18 16:33:42 UTC
I think the threat to the end of all research towers and wh living was enough to make sure ccp never did this.


Unless people want the days of ol where tech 3 ships were 1 billion for the hull and 100-500 mill for each subsystem.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#38 - 2011-11-18 16:38:12 UTC
well

if a DEV replies you'll have an answer
if no DEV replies you'll still have your answer

winning!
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#39 - 2011-11-18 16:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Hammond II
Acac Sunflyier wrote:



ole source of ice and high-end minerals
For further discussion. Nullsec should be the only place we're injecting (at least some of the) ices, zydrine, megacyte and morphite into the game. This ensures that nullsec mining retains a unique value proposition, and guarantees that mining time for these types is priced according the risk and effort involved in nullsec extraction.


see the bolded part... why is it always an all or none prospect here?

Weaselior wrote:
the whole reason is that jita is going to be ******* bare of gallente isotopes soon :sun:

also we got to do some hella insider trading but really just shutting down every gallente pos in EVE without shooting a single structure is a masterpiece worthy of doing this alone

we do not mine


Yes, you have bots to do that for you.

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#40 - 2011-11-18 16:42:04 UTC
Shivus Tao wrote:
It would be nice even if the initial redistribution is just temporary. The systems with terrible sec status and thus not worth putting military upgrades in need something to make them actually worth holding and populating.


Ice is worth **** all. You get less than 20 mil an hour mining it. If the value of it tripled, you would still make less than running level 4 missions in hisec.

Even if the value of ice more than tripled, the inflation it would cause would still make hisec more profitable than mining ice. To use Ice as bait to get people to move is absofuckinglutely ********, and CCP knows it.

The reason it was suggested in the first place was because the goons wanted it. When they didn't get what they wanted they started ganking miners to inflate the price of ice and PLEX.

Eve 101.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it